Bidenomics

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Kraken
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Bidenomics

Post by Kraken »

Biden has decided to double down on the economy, which is an interesting gambit since his approval on that issue is in the 30s.

Bidenomics is simply defined as repudiating supply-side, trickle-down economics that has failed us since the 1980s in favor of the New Deal philosophy of building the economy "from the ground up and from the middle out," investing in consumers and the middle class. You'd think that would be wildly popular, but....

Although consumers are deeply skeptical, that plan is working. The labor market is historically strong, wages are growing solidly, and the recession keeps getting postponed.

This is meant to be a general discussion of the economy heading into the next election, but I'll start it out with this tidbit:

This fellow, whose recent predictions have been solid, believes that us Baby Boomers will provide the tailwind to keep lifting the economy.
“The common explanation for the no-show recession despite the 500bps hike in the federal funds rate is that consumers were still spending their excess savings from the pandemic. But once this cash is spent over the rest of this year, the thinking goes, a consumer-led recession is likely in 2024,” he wrote in a Wednesday note to clients. “I disagree.”

Yardeni, an economist by training who previously served as chief investment strategist at both Prudential Financial and Deutsche Bank, now points to another positive sign for the economy—one that could keep consumer spending, which makes up 70% of U.S. GDP, elevated for years to come despite stubborn inflation.

“Consumers’ excess savings of roughly $0.5 trillion currently is dwarfed by the net worth held by the Baby Boom generation that is retiring,” he explained. “They have just started to spend it. Their progeny undoubtedly expects to inherit some of that wealth and therefore can save less.”


This resonates with me as a boomer nearing retirement who has a lifetime of savings and investment socked away. It's time to start spending it down. And there are a whole lot of people like me (financially speaking) who have more assets than years remaining.
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Isgrimnur
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Isgrimnur »

As boomer progeny, I expect to inherit nothing. Anything I do inherit is gravy. And neither my sister nor I re prone to acting entitled.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Blackhawk
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Blackhawk »

I'm the progeny of the Silent Generation, and I'm about 20 years late for any inheritance.
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Kraken
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Kraken »

My Silent Generation birth mother just emailed me to get my SS# so she could update her beneficiary. Who is me. She isn't wealthy but I'm going to get whatever she's got, because she has nobody else to leave it to. I told her that I don't need it and she doesn't owe me anything so she should bequeath a charity of her choice instead. She's conservative so any bequest would be a bad one, Taking her money is a public service. :wink:

Me, I'd rather spend my money while I'm alive than leave it to my nephews and niece. I expect that they'll get some substantial crumbs, but Imma eat as much of my cake as I can before the party ends.

Boomers have money and we're going to let the bon temps rollez, is the point. Trillions of taxable dollars are coming out of hibernation. Those dollars aren't subject to payroll taxes, though, so it sucks to be Social Security.
malchior
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by malchior »

Kraken wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:18 am Biden has decided to double down on the economy, which is an interesting gambit since his approval on that issue is in the 30s.

Bidenomics is simply defined as repudiating supply-side, trickle-down economics that has failed us since the 1980s in favor of the New Deal philosophy of building the economy "from the ground up and from the middle out," investing in consumers and the middle class. You'd think that would be wildly popular, but....
There are some real headwinds to the sort of progress he is claiming that he is stepping over. Fed policy, federal tax policy, and fiscal support aren't really aimed at the middle class. There has been very little reform of the factors that have been siphoning wealth from the bottom of the wealth curve to the top for 40+ years now. The recently Trump tax changes actually accelerate it. To be fair to Biden this isn't a Biden problem to solve and it needs to be fixed in Congress. But declaring a turn from Reaganomics puts him hip deep in some Grade-A bullshit too.

Frankly IMO he is trying to take credit wherever he can but this 'Bidenomics' stuff isn't on solid ground...yet. It does look like there is a path in that direction in small measure with investing in on-shoring silicon based manufacturing, batteries, and green tech. That fiscal support is mostly filtering through large corporations (for instance helping Intel build factories) which might broaden the middle class over time. But that's still some distance away and is a bet. This is him selling a vision more than a reality right now which is probably decent politics if people buy into it.
“The common explanation for the no-show recession despite the 500bps hike in the federal funds rate is that consumers were still spending their excess savings from the pandemic. But once this cash is spent over the rest of this year, the thinking goes, a consumer-led recession is likely in 2024,” he wrote in a Wednesday note to clients. “I disagree.”
This isn't the common explanation. It is one of the explanations. There are others and they are all probably complimentary. A lot of things happened. The supply chain normalized unlocking economic potential. There is also still a relatively increased amount of federal fiscal support working through the system from ARP, IRA, and the Chips Act. Additionally, there has been historically high investment inflows from foreign sources with global companies investing in the United States instead of laggard European economies such as the UK where growth potential is looking weak at the moment.
Yardeni, an economist by training who previously served as chief investment strategist at both Prudential Financial and Deutsche Bank, now points to another positive sign for the economy—one that could keep consumer spending, which makes up 70% of U.S. GDP, elevated for years to come despite stubborn inflation.

“Consumers’ excess savings of roughly $0.5 trillion currently is dwarfed by the net worth held by the Baby Boom generation that is retiring,” he explained. “They have just started to spend it. Their progeny undoubtedly expects to inherit some of that wealth and therefore can save less.”
This is pretty speculative. Maybe this will happen but I have significant doubts. There is a fairly significant issue out there - wealth inequality. Boomers as a generation have much of the wealth but it is very unequally distributed. Lots of folks will tout the average net worth of a boomer household at $1.4M but the median is actually somewhere nearer to $500K. Much of that being the value of a home. Worse, the median value of their 401(k)s is something like $200K. If they follow the 4% rule, this amounts to a whopping $8K per year. Not very stimulative! So unless there are a spate of reverse mortgages or renting out their homes there isn't necessarily income flows to "spend down" into the economy.

Social security helps here somewhat but that is a balanced factor considering it is being paid by current workers. Still dollars spent by boomers have velocity as they turnover and these dollars are likely to be spent since a retired boomer may very well need every last dollar in that check.

Edit: Extra credit. Just some back of the envelope stuff but the median boomer household will again have approximately ~$700 per month from a 401k and ~$3400/mo from SSI (assuming the median boomer household is a married couple). That's ~$4100/mo. and I'd round that up to $50K/yr. The rosy predictions probably aren't supported by that spend. They'd actually potentially be a drag as it's well below median household income. The median boomer will be well above the poverty line for sure but it's hardly raining dollars from the sky type money though. I'd temper expectations a bit.

Also we should consider all the outlays the young have to spend on supporting their healthcare as well. There will likely be healthcare cost inflation from all the demand which will have an impact on non-boomer household balances. I could probably find a few more areas to convolute this but IMO those predictions build in a faulty assumption that the dragon's horde of the 1% boomer gets spent down which is not likely. A lot of boomer wealth may very well end up tied to dynastic wealth transfers which may have the effect of perpetuating the political unrest in our system.
This resonates with me as a boomer nearing retirement who has a lifetime of savings and investment socked away. It's time to start spending it down. And there are a whole lot of people like me (financially speaking) who have more assets than years remaining.
A boomer thinking the boomers are going to save the world. That's new! :P
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Madmarcus »

malchior wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:00 am That's ~$4100/mo. and I'd round that up to $50K/yr. The rosy predictions probably aren't supported by that spend. They'd actually potentially be a drag as it's well below median household income. The median boomer will be well above the poverty line for sure but it's hardly raining dollars from the sky type money though. I'd temper expectations a bit.
As a fairly early Gen X I'm not sure I'm as pessimistic. My kids are out of the house, the house is paid off, my healthcare isn't cheap but will be cheap in a few years due to retirement benefits and then Medicare. Throw in no need to put part of the income into retirement accounts and the reduced taxes due to capital gains vs. income and various tax advantaged accounts and that $50k looks different from a $50k yearly family income for a younger family.
malchior
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by malchior »

Madmarcus wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 8:57 am
malchior wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:00 am That's ~$4100/mo. and I'd round that up to $50K/yr. The rosy predictions probably aren't supported by that spend. They'd actually potentially be a drag as it's well below median household income. The median boomer will be well above the poverty line for sure but it's hardly raining dollars from the sky type money though. I'd temper expectations a bit.
As a fairly early Gen X I'm not sure I'm as pessimistic. My kids are out of the house, the house is paid off, my healthcare isn't cheap but will be cheap in a few years due to retirement benefits and then Medicare. Throw in no need to put part of the income into retirement accounts and the reduced taxes due to capital gains vs. income and various tax advantaged accounts and that $50k looks different from a $50k yearly family income for a younger family.
You are talking about the household impact but the analysis means to talk about the reality of the *economic impact*. They are very different things. That $50K might spend fine but it is not going to be stimulative in the general economy. In fact, I'm arguing in practice it'll be a drag because instead of spending this pent up wealth, the median boomer household will likely be spending less than they were before retirement.

Edit: Again with the back of envelope here but the math is relatively simple. If the median income drops from the current median of ~100K for a 65-year old couple to ~50K that is ~50K less spend/investment in the economy. Some of that reduced income will be spread throughout the economy in higher wages/job replacements. However, we've seen the participation rate fail to return to pre-COVID levels so this is an area we will need to wait and see how it develops. There will be a balance between how much profit businesses can keep and how much productivity they can squeeze out of the non-retiring labor force.

Another possibility is we may see the economy stagnate or slow down and shrink the pie to compensate. The idea it accelerates? It doesn't really make sense to me without the top boomers suddenly increasing spend/investment activity beyond their current baseline. That might happen but I don't see it being more significant than the many more boomers on the other side of the wealth curve.

On top, as you note they aren't going to be earning money to put into retirement accounts which means companies have less money to invest in growth. Boomers or early GenX switching to "cheap for them" healthcare effectively may lead to increases in the FICA share of tax on the young to support their healthcare. The same idea for SSI. It's not a demographic time bomb like people used to talk about but I find this notion that the boomers are saving us from recession to be built on pretty flimsy ground. If you just even take a cursory look under the hood it starts to fall apart.
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Isgrimnur »

malchior wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:15 am The same idea for SSI. It's not a demographic time bomb like people used to talk about but I find this notion that the boomers are saving us from recession to be built on pretty flimsy ground.
It sounds like something a boomer would say. :P
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Montag »

How many private and state pension funds can handle the load?
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Pyperkub »

Montag wrote:How many private and state pension funds can handle the load?
The ones which weren't deliberately underfunded and/sabotaged?

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malchior
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by malchior »

Montag wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 2:38 pm How many private and state pension funds can handle the load?
Don't remind me - I didn't even go there. The majority of Boomers are in 401(k)s but a not insignificant percentage are in state systems like NJ where they are underfunded pretty badly. I didn't go exhaustive with my temperature check but this is another piece of the puzzle which makes me question the notion that the boomers are going to save us (instead of continuing their pattern of utterly fucking us).
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

:)

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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Kraken »

Well played! :D
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by El Guapo »

She's so stupid and such a product of the conservative media bubble that she genuinely thinks that what she is saying is devastating to Biden.
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by LordMortis »

Man, he needs to keep that all through the election cycle. Put it on TV and social media political ads. That is a thing of beauty. It's literally why I voted for him. It's nice to have a reminder when I don't feel so great about his presidency.
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Unagi »

El Guapo wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:30 pm She's so stupid and such a product of the conservative media bubble that she genuinely thinks that what she is saying is devastating to Biden.
Wait, that was un-cut, and actually what she said - for real?
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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Unagi wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:23 pm
El Guapo wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:30 pm She's so stupid and such a product of the conservative media bubble that she genuinely thinks that what she is saying is devastating to Biden.
Wait, that was un-cut, and actually what she said - for real?
Not uncut, but not in a way to make she seemed to say what she didn't:

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Re: Bidenomics

Post by Kraken »

Unagi wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:23 pm
El Guapo wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:30 pm She's so stupid and such a product of the conservative media bubble that she genuinely thinks that what she is saying is devastating to Biden.
Wait, that was un-cut, and actually what she said - for real?
This is why Republicans mustn’t speak truth.
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