The Impeachment of Joe Biden

[GreenGoo]

I think the point is that if America (with its overwhelming cultural, economic, and political weight) falls to Authoritarianism, everywhere else will too.

I don't know how to respond to that. I mean, what you suggest certainly *could* happen. I'm not even remotely convinced it would happen.

[Unagi]

I think the point is that if America (with its overwhelming cultural, economic, and political weight) falls to Authoritarianism, everywhere else will too.

I don't know how to respond to that. I mean, what you suggest certainly *could* happen. I'm not even remotely convinced it would happen.

You yourself just expressed concern that the USA's current trend seems to be slowly mirrored in Canada. CANADA!

[GreenGoo]

We live right beside you. Our (yours and ours) citizens literally drive back and forth across the border daily. 90% of our media is produced in the US, and culturally there are so many overlaps it's hard to distinguish between them already.

That said, I'm not overly concerned about Canada becoming authoritarian, but I am concerned about the cultural and economic issues that are going to bleed into Canada.

Canada is a significant trade partner of the US, and the US is by far our largest trade partner, covering about 2/3 of our international trade. Could we find replacement trade partners? Almost certainly, but none as lucrative and beneficial to both the US and Canada as we have now.

[Holman]

Trade doesn't happen in a vacuum.

When the USA and Europe have descended into right-wing authoritarianism, they'll enjoy putting heavy economic screws to any remaining nations who continue to allow the "cultural atrocities" of abortion, gay rights, etc to go unchecked.

[malchior]

Probably...but we may be focused on internal matters for some time before we start turning the screws on our trade partners. Authoritarians are often too busy shoring up power and grifting. And Canada isn't going to be much of a threat to those goals for some time most likely.

[GreenGoo]

Trade doesn't happen in a vacuum.

When the USA and Europe have descended into right-wing authoritarianism, they'll enjoy putting heavy economic screws to any remaining nations who continue to allow the "cultural atrocities" of abortion, gay rights, etc to go unchecked.

Ok boomer.

[Rumpy]

Worse, possibly, your brand of crazy is starting to infect the right wing people up here. Trans issues, for example. I never in my life expected to hear a significant number of Canadians insist on taking away someone's human rights. But here we are.

So yes, it is terrifying to outsiders.

Yeah, I hear you. And it's scary, as I never would have expected something like that to come out of Canada, and it makes me sad. All this seemed to have come to the surface via the Trucker convoy. Even now, whenever we pass by a particular stretch of road, there's always a Freedom group protesters assembled in a parking lot, and it always makes me feel like they're advocating values that don't exist in Canada. Like seriously, what are they protesting against currently? That we're a safe mild-mannered country?

Canada has historically been very progressive in some of its stances. I'd hate to think we would reverse some of those.

[El Guapo]

Basically if the United States falls into a Trumpist authoritarian system of government, it will have all sorts of very bad impacts on other countries, including Canada. It's hard to predict exactly what those effects will be, but for sure it'll be deeply unpleasant.

[GreenGoo]

It's hard to predict exactly what those effects will be, but for sure it'll be deeply unpleasant.

We got that far on our own

[Rumpy]

Basically if the United States falls into a Trumpist authoritarian system of government, it will have all sorts of very bad impacts on other countries, including Canada. It's hard to predict exactly what those effects will be, but for sure it'll be deeply unpleasant.

With Canada being a historically close trading partner, we'd definitely be taking a big hit. We'd have to go find new trading partners. I've seen a lot of talk about CANZUK, ie Canada/New Zealand/UK, but don't know how realistic those prospects are.

[waitingtoconnect]

And they feel exactly the same way about talking to us.

Both sides firmly believe that they are in the right, and that the other side is willfully terrible. That is not an easy situation to get out of, and there are so, so many ways it can become far worse

Indeed. And there is no practical example of a rift like this ending peacefully. I was hanging this weekend with a Brit who lives in the UK but works almost exclusively with Americans. I saw her up in Boston this weekend. I had an hours long conversation about the issues she is seeing and her extreme worry about what is happening here.

It is obvious to outsiders that we are hurtling into something bad. She was telling us how bad it is getting in the UK too -- check out their concrete crisis right now to get a sense of it -- and it was not comforting to her a Brit telling me she has an escape plan to Spain or Portugal right now. It feels like we're on the edge of something big here. Maybe nothing happens but this has to be some echo of what it felt like in the 30s.

If democracy falls in the US it will be overthrown in Canada, the UK and Australia very quickly.

[GreenGoo]

If democracy falls in the US it will be overthrown in Canada, the UK and Australia very quickly.

This is so fucking arrogant I don't know what to say. Why on EARTH would you think this is a foregone conclusion? We trade with you, our societies and democracies aren't modeled on yours, and our populations and demographics aren't the same. Our values are very much different and our voting systems are different.

If democracy falls in the US it will be because your political system allows a minority to take complete ownership of the government at both the state and federal levels. Not because the US population wants authoritarianism.

Can the rest of us fall? Sure, but probably not in the same way and likely much slower, as we don't have a single news network dedicated to undermining our democracy and bombarding the public with constant lies and misinformation.

We import a lot of our right wing nonsense from you guys. If it gets bad enough, we'll just turn off access to Fox. Yes we can do this. Yes it's heavy handed and dystopian. But we'll do it if the alternative is authoritarianism.

We have freedom of expression, not freedom of speech, as Popehat likes to point out. We can and do make certain speech illegal. So from that perspective we are LESS free than the US. Which may in the end protect us from following you into authoritarianism, ironically.

But this is all speculation. If you guys fall, it's going to be a problem, no question. A major, once in multiple generations problem. World war sized problem. But there is no guarantee that the world falls with you. We'll see, I guess, but man, I usually defend America from attacks about arrogance, but holy shit this was a big one.

You guys have a ton of red states. We have Alberta. Of course they hold all the oil, but fossil fuels aren't going to be the gold mine they currently are forever. I hate this thought experiment. Fuck you, Drumpf, Fox, and the GOP in general.

[Unagi]

Our values are very much different

I realize the USA gets all the bad press, but do you actually think our values are "very much different"? For instance, a majority of US citizens actually want universal healthcare. In fact, I bet most or all of Canadian "values" are alive and well in the States, it's just that Canada is spared of some specific values (thinking plantation slave economy here) that the States have to put up with.

[GreenGoo]

I realize the USA gets all the bad press, but do you actually think our values are "very much different"?

I didn't used to, but guns and abortion are just 2 extremely divergent values. Some Americans (many?) would tell you that gun ownership is a core american value.

Yes, I think there is a very distinct difference in what Canadians value vs what a significant number of Americans value. More importantly, even if the values were the same, does it really matter when those values are suppressed until nearly completely hidden from view?

Sure, there is (eventually) an abortion underground railroad to Canada, but your country no longer (potentially) represents those values, so...*shug*.

Bob in Fort Worth might have the same values as I do, but since his government has made those values illegal, now what?

However, as I mentioned and Rumpy lamented, things are changing up here too. Not in the numbers (or percentages) in the US, but it would have been unheard of except in small pockets of the country, not to adopt progressive humanitarian rights. I have protests in my own city at my children's school board meetings about screwing over trans students to "protect the children", as if trans students are aren't children too.

And that comes directly from the US. People might be unsure about trans rights, but shouting matches at a school board meeting is beyond the pale for Ottawa, which prides itself as a diverse, welcoming, tolerant city. We are witnessing the US fall apart and (some, a very small minority) up here are starting to think that looks great, let's get some up here. It's imported outrage. Just note when Carlson and Fox decided to send support up here for our "Freedom" convoy. Fuck those fucking fuckers....fuck.

[Unagi]

I realize the USA gets all the bad press, but do you actually think our values are "very much different"?

I didn't used to, but guns and abortion are just 2 extremely divergent values. Some Americans (many?) would tell you that gun ownership is a core american value.

Yes, I think there is a very distinct difference in what Canadians value vs what a significant number of Americans value. More importantly, even if the values were the same, does it really matter when those values are suppressed until nearly completely hidden from view?

Sure, there is (eventually) an abortion underground railroad to Canada, but your country no longer (potentially) represents those values, so...*shug*.

Bob in Fort Worth might have the same values as I do, but since his government has made those values illegal, now what?

I’ll give you the Guns culture (which I am not a part of, so I’m more Canadian, as are almost everyone in ‘my circle’.)

The abortion crap that is happening here - I would argue that you may see it creep into Canada - as I honestly thought RvsW would never have been overturned.
Maybe I’m just sating ‘be careful of what you are certain won’t affect you’.

But I also realize you aren’t saying ‘you are certain’.

Personally, I felt that whole freedom trucker thing you guys had was evidence of Canada’s “lack of immunity” to this bullshit that before then, I sincerely thought you all magically possessed.

[GreenGoo]

Last election we did see "organizations" pushing for, and financially supporting anti-abortion candidates. It was terrifying. However, I believe most of them were defeated.

But yes, it was the first time in my adult lifetime I've seen or heard of even the smallest threat to our abortion laws. Of course we have protestors downtown and in front of Parliament. But most people feel they are crazy, because quite frankly, they sound insane.

We also don't have the rampant religious fervor that you seem to have in a LOT of the country. Which is strange, since have actual, publicly funded, Catholic school boards that get tax dollars. However, as I explained in a previous thread, they are required to accept anyone of any background and as far as courses go, it's typically religion(s) as a group. Major world religions. It's still questionable and Catholicism still seeps into the day to day, but it's incredibly mild, and anyone trying to force God on a student would get ousted quickly, once it came to light.

So culturally, we are less passionate about our God or lack there of. That feels like a pretty major difference.

[GreenGoo]

Personally, I felt that whole freedom trucker thing you guys had was evidence of Canada’s “lack of immunity” to this bullshit that before then, I sincerely thought you all magically possessed.

And this is the crux of my comments lately about finding somewhere else to live out my last days. I have no idea what Canada is going to look like in a few decades.

As I said, waitingtoconnect's predictions *might* come true! I just think it's far from certain. That certainty about immediate collapse the moment the US falls was what set me off, not the possibility.

edit: I thought we were magically immune too! Actually, I thought you guys were too, until drumpf became president. That really opened my eyes. And decline really accelerated too. No question in my mind that Drumpf is going to be the face of America's stumble (hopefully not fall!!!) in history, even if there were underlying symptoms already.

[GreenGoo]

Oh, and our lack of religious fervor also reduces pressure on abortion laws. We don't have the same mandate from God as you guys do. So that's two areas where we differ, but one is heavily influenced by the other.

That's not to say we don't have people with strong religious beliefs. We do, but they tend not to be obnoxious about it, depending on your tolerance for religious dogma.

Here on OO we had a particularly religious member from Alberta. I think OO's godlessness scared him away eventually (or mine, we had a few headbutts). Or he just moved on as so many do. But this guy was practically an extremist for a Canadian (less so for Alberta), and I would say he was no more religious than, say, Grifman is. Who I think most would agree is quite restrained in his views or at least expressing them.

My point is, Grif would be a religious zealot up here, but down there some might forget he even holds strong views on the matter.

None of this is supposed to be a criticism of anyone, not Grif, not the guy from Alberta, and not religion in general. If I came across a bit harsh, I apologize, it was not my intent. I just thought the comparison was interesting.

[Holman]

I think we're talking past each other here.

GreenGoo is arguing for the political and cultural independence of Canada, rightly pointing out that (no matter the weight of US cultural hegemony around the globe) Canada and New Zealand and wherever else are not doomed simply to copy where the US goes.

But the point I think you're missing, Goo, is that an Authoritarian USA is going to be extremely powerful, and it is in the nature of Authoritarians to choose enemies. Conflict is a necessary effect of far-right ideology. It's part of the grand nationalistic narrative. What happens to the polite few peace-loving democracies when ALL of the most powerful nations of the world have gone fascist?

The American Right already blames Mexico for all manner of imagined cultural woes. (And casting blame, not salving woes, is actually the point.) It's not hard to imagine a full-on MAGA dictatorship deciding that, just as Mexico is to blame for drugs and crime, Canada is to blame for perniciously infiltrating America with its Woke ideology?

[Rumpy]

I didn't used to, but guns and abortion are just 2 extremely divergent values. Some Americans (many?) would tell you that gun ownership is a core american value.

Yes, I think there is a very distinct difference in what Canadians value vs what a significant number of Americans value. More importantly, even if the values were the same, does it really matter when those values are suppressed until nearly completely hidden from view?

And I can think of several others too. Sure, on the surface, Canada and the U.S might seem to be very similar, but we diverge quite a bit when it comes to values and cultural identity.

1) Guns were mentioned. Most Canadians will only ever have guns for hunting and require a license for them.
2) We legalized same-sex marriage 10 years before the U.S did.
3) We are more accepting of the LGTBQ+ community, although right-wing groups would like to have the chance to roll that back.
4) We are generally more open about learning about and helping indigenous groups, although again, right-wing groups would like to roll back our efforts at reconciliation and pretend atrocities never happened.

What's scary about being bordering neighbours is that we are very susceptible to influence leaking over. With the Freedom Convoy, there was lots of foreign interference, ie lots of funding coming from the U.S to try to influence outcomes in Canadian politics. That was very much a wakeup call for most of the Country. It's the weight of that influence that worries me and what might happen if bad actors end up in power.

[Carpet_pissr]

I have to agree with Goo here, and that some of the comments are off the chart in terms of American exceptionalism.

I think some of you have not had much exposure to non-UK Europe, or your heads are stuck in the 90’s.

While right-wing populism does seem to be on the rise (again) globally, many liberal democracies around the world are stronger today than ever. Many have evolved more than ours, whereas we seem to be stuck in the past, pointing at the brilliance of the Founders and their foresight as we rapidly devolve into political, civic and societal chaos.

Unless we are able to pivot outside of our standard “America is the greatest country in the world and always will be” mentality, we’re toast. IMVHO.

Our typical democratic peers and allies around the world have been shaking their heads for years at our situation: not out of any sense of schadenfreude (ok maybe a little of that), but I think more out of shock, dismay and sadness.

We may already be the cautionary tale that those peers are pointing to in order to shore up their own systems.

[GreenGoo]

Rumpy's post reminded me. Public education. It's so important and most modern democracies recognize this and do their best to fully fund quality education through high school and often subsidize post secondary too. Unsurprisingly I suppose, our current conservative government is not exactly supportive on education. I don't understand it.

America seems to despise education and continue to cut the supports out from under it until it teeters, then point at it while declaring it just doesn't work and is a waste of money.

Ok, I really didn't mean to itemize criticisms of America, and there are, obviously, many areas where you excel. Freedom of speech doesn't get much freer than in America, and that alone is exceptional, despite the problems misinformation is causing these days. As an example.

[Rumpy]

Rumpy's post reminded me. Public education. It's so important and most modern democracies recognize this and do their best to fully fund quality education through high school and often subsidize post secondary too.

America seems to despise education and continue to cut the supports out from under it until it teeters, then point at it while declaring it just doesn't work and is a waste of money.

Ok, I really didn't mean to itemize criticisms of America, and there are, obviously, many areas where you excel. Freedom of speech doesn't get much freer than in America, and that alone is exceptional, despite the problems misinformation is causing these days. As an example.

Good point about education. I like to think our schools are very good, and we learn a bit of everything in the world in our curriculum, and that because of this we're a bit more world aware, which naturally extends to our view of the world and how we fit in it.

[GreenGoo]

Yes, but we are still extremely isolated in world view compared to europe. We only seem enlightened because of our neighbours And of course we feel incredibly superior because we can find Europe on the map. That doesn't exactly make us a worldly, aware society. It just feels like it. Lol.

[Rumpy]

Well, it does lead to us being generally more welcoming to our cultures, ie immigration and the cultural diversity that we have.

[GreenGoo]

Well, it does lead to us being generally more welcoming to our cultures, ie immigration and the cultural diversity that we have.

Yes, but we are 85% caucasian or something like that. We might feel more open to other cultures, and I think we are, we're not as diverse as America, even if they seem angry about it

[ImLawBoy]

Careful! You're already adopting a lot of Americanisms like assumptions about the cultures of other countries and arrogance!

[Carpet_pissr]

We have freedom of expression, not freedom of speech, as Popehat likes to point out. We can and do make certain speech illegal. So from that perspective we are LESS free than the US. Which may in the end protect us from following you into authoritarianism, ironically.

1,000x this (our "freedom at any cost" is leading us to authoritarianism), and I've said as much on here more than a couple times. I distinctly remember the first time I mentioned it, someone said it was the most un-American post they had ever read on here, IIRC. (this was at least 10 years ago, maybe 15 FWIW).

And it's not just Canada. Many strong democracies in other countries are chided here, and we constantly tout how we are the most free country in the world...which I suspect the last man standing will be holding a banner with that written on it as he is surrounded by ashes (would be a great political cartoon!). And at this point, I really, honestly believe that MANY here (in the US, not OO) are ok with that, which I find incredibly frustrating, stupid, and quite literally self-defeating (ultimately). But fuck yeah, man, GUNS!!!

If being able to say and do whatever the fuck you want to do, whenever you want to do it is the goal, we can sure have that. But the more we push in that direction (that part is key, please don't use the following as an argument w/o considering this), the faster we get to ashes IMO. Society is a fucking thing, and the very nature of living IN and being a part OF a society demands limitations, whether we like it or not. Obvious exceptions apply. Point is, we have gone way too far in the direction of "Freedom" and damn the consequences!" because it is certainly VERY costly and getting more so.

[Rumpy]

Well, it does lead to us being generally more welcoming to our cultures, ie immigration and the cultural diversity that we have.

Yes, but we are 85% caucasian or something like that. We might feel more open to other cultures, and I think we are, we're not as diverse as America, even if they seem angry about it

Well, I mean the differences between being a cultural mosaic vs a cultural melting pot. If some from other cultures want to settle here, we offer them less of a barrier to entry, and we generally let them be who they are, not who we want them to be.

[GreenGoo]

Point is, we have gone way too far in the direction of "Freedom" and damn the consequences!" because it is certainly VERY costly and getting more so.

And it seems to have made people hostile to each other somehow. Like, fellow citizens are the enemy and you are in direct competition with your neighbour, so fuck that guy.

[Rumpy]

Have you been watching Beef on Netfflix??

[Pyperkub]

And so it begins:

https://themessenger.com/news/its-offic ... dent-biden

He promised to put it to a House vote but apparently didn’t have the votes, so he just announced it anyway. This is purely political, the Republicans gave been looking at this for months and have found nothing. I don’t expect anything to change.

You probably could have found a better link to post. The "Why's" and "Wherefore's" in this are EXTREMELY important. HC Richardson has the details: (link to free substack article)

Members of the House of Representatives returned to work today after their summer break. They came back to a fierce fight over funding the government before the September 30 deadline, with only 12 days of legislative work on the calendar. That fight is also tangled up with Republican extremists’ demands to impeach President Joe Biden—although even members of their own caucus admit there are no grounds for such an impeachment—and threats to the continued position of Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) as speaker of the House...

...In August, the Senate Appropriations Committee passed 12 spending bills covering discretionary funding—about 27% of the budget—by bipartisan votes, within limits set as part of the deal Speaker McCarthy made with President Biden to prevent the U.S. defaulting for the first time in history.

But the House left for summer break without being able to pass more than one of the 12 necessary bills. The extremists in the House Freedom Caucus oppose the spending levels Biden and McCarthy negotiated, insisting they amount to “socialism,” although with the exception of the Covid-19 blip, discretionary federal spending has stayed level at about 20% of the nation’s gross domestic product since 1954.

Essentially this impeachment talk is 100% McCarthy trying his damnedest to keep the Gov't running with only GOP votes by appeasement of the nutjobs.

The key question is whether he can do that, or the House implodes and takes the US Government with it. These final quotes from the above link is rather telling:

Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) summed up the day: “So let me get this straight: Republicans are threatening to remove their own Speaker, impeach the President, and shut down the government on September 30th—disrupting everyday people’s paychecks and general public operations. For what? I don’t think even they know.”

The center-right think tank American Action Forum’s vice president for economic policy, Gordon Gray, had an answer. Ever since the debt ceiling fight was resolved, he told Joan E. Greve of The Guardian, “there’s a big chunk of House Republicans who just want to break something. That’s just how some of these folks define governing. It’s how their constituents define success.”

[GreenGoo]

Have you been watching Beef on Netfflix??

No actually, I have no idea what that's about. I assumed cannibals or something equally offputting.

Apparently something is happening in the US? Something about the president? Let's listen in.

[Grifman]

Haha, didn’t realize I would be a religious “fanatic” on Canada. Learn something new every day. I laughed, no offense taken, Goo


That said, what a lot of Americans don’t realize is that by most scales, there isn’t an overseas equivalent of the Republican Party among mainstream political partiesin most democratic countries. The Republican Party is just so far to the right compared with most foreign “conservative” parties. So even if the US descended into Trumpism (God forbid) there just isn’t the overseas constituency for the extremism represented by today’s Republican Party.

This opinion article explains it well;

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... right.html

According to its 2016 manifesto, the Republican Party lies far from the Conservative Party in Britain and the Christian Democratic Union in Germany — mainstream right-leaning parties — and closer to far-right parties like Alternative for Germany, whose platform contains plainly xenophobic, anti-Muslim statements.

The difference is that in Europe, far-right populist parties are often an alternative to the mainstream. In the United States, the Republican Party is the mainstream.

“That’s the tragedy of the American two-party system,” Mr. Greven said. In a multiparty government, white working-class populists might have been shunted into a smaller faction, and the Republicans might have continued as a “big tent” conservative party. Instead, the Republican Party has allowed its more extreme elements to dominate. “Nowhere in Europe do you have that phenomenon,” he said.

[GreenGoo]

But the point I think you're missing, Goo, is that an Authoritarian USA is going to be extremely powerful, and it is in the nature of Authoritarians to choose enemies. Conflict is a necessary effect of far-right ideology. It's part of the grand nationalistic narrative. What happens to the polite few peace-loving democracies when ALL of the most powerful nations of the world have gone fascist?

Definitely not missing anything, I don't think. Hell, Fallout might be prescient. I've certainly thought about the possibility, so I have definitely thought about economic sanctions, military pressures, all sort of things. At least I've thought about them enough to realize they terrify me.

[Carpet_pissr]

Conflict is a necessary effect of far-right ideology.

And many GreenGoo posts!

[Rumpy]

That said, what a lot of Americans don’t realize is that by most scales, there isn’t an overseas equivalent of the Republican Party among mainstream political partiesin most democratic countries. The Republican Party is just so far to the right compared with most foreign “conservative” parties. So even if the US descended into Trumpism (God forbid) there just isn’t the overseas constituency for the extremism represented by today’s Republican Party.

That's a great point. And I've always found it interesting that the U.S only has two parties. But Canada does have its Conservative Party which sometimes shares similar values to the Republican Party, including some rather harsh views. But while independents are allowed to run in the U.S, they're most likely being funneled to either party, and I don't think we've ever seen the result of an independent win. What happens if an Independent wins in the U.S? I think Bernie Sanders got the closest. That's more of a likelihood in Canada with its myriad of parties

[malchior]

That said, what a lot of Americans don’t realize is that by most scales, there isn’t an overseas equivalent of the Republican Party among mainstream political partiesin most democratic countries. The Republican Party is just so far to the right compared with most foreign “conservative” parties. So even if the US descended into Trumpism (God forbid) there just isn’t the overseas constituency for the extremism represented by today’s Republican Party.

That's a great point. And I've always found it interesting that the U.S only has two parties.

This gets into political science theory but it's pretty much a mathematically driven outcome. This is due to first past the post voting intersecting with the impact of the electoral college. You need to maximize for at least 50%+ in a winning set of states. This leads to a requirement to appeal to broad constituencies. To contrast, independents often win seats at the local/state level. However, it's usually just easier to align with a major national political party.

What happens if an Independent wins in the U.S? I think Bernie Sanders got the closest. That's more of a likelihood in Canada with its myriad of parties.

FWIW Sanders never really got anywhere near a level of support that made him competitive for a national party nomination. He had some upsets in some caucuses but that's mostly because caucuses can be gamed. He only drew a majority of primary voters in his home state and that was ~51% of the vote. He was mostly there to impact the party agenda.

[waitingtoconnect]

If democracy falls in the US it will be overthrown in Canada, the UK and Australia very quickly.

This is so fucking arrogant I don't know what to say. Why on EARTH would you think this is a foregone conclusion? We trade with you, our societies and democracies aren't modeled on yours, .

I hate this thought experiment. Fuck you, Drumpf, Fox, and the GOP in general.

Respectfully I’m adamant in my opposition to Trump. I apologise for any offence. I understand you love your country and its way of doing things.

My real concern is trump would overthrow your democracies the same way Putin has tried to overthrow Ukraine.

there is a real danger that worries me. I saw Brexit first hand. I saw how trump was invoked again and again as a model to follow by conservative MPs.

I saw the trucker blockade and the calls from protestors for Maga allies in the south to come over and help them “liberate” Canada. Would Trump Mk 2 stop them? Encourage them? Use it as an excuse for manifest destiny?

We already saw with Trump mk 1 a rewriting of NAFTA in the favour of the US. So he’s already happy to treat Canada as a vassal and not a sovereign nation.

Trump is a threat to the whole democratic world. This is not the time for those of us who love democracy to turn on one another. Then it will fail.

[Rumpy]

I saw the trucker blockade and the calls from protestors for Maga allies in the south to come over and help them “liberate” Canada. Would Trump Mk 2 stop them? Encourage them? Use it as an excuse for manifest destiny?

We already saw with Trump mk 1 a rewriting of NAFTA in the favour of the US. So he’s already happy to treat Canada as a vassal and not a sovereign nation.

Agreed. I've referred to a lot of this earlier in the thread. I think it just took the Convoy for it to come to the surface. It was probably already there, but waiting for an opportunity like the convoy, and the reality is that most of them were likely not even truckers.

As for the trade, that's what I've been worried about too. He was throwing his weight around to get Canada to give more, meanwhile it's quite easy for our industries to get overwhelmed.