The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Isgrimnur »

Winter Is coming.net
As Game of Thrones comes to a close, fans’ attention will naturally begin to shift back to the book saga that started it all, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. Next up is the oft-delayed sixth novel in the series, The Winds of Winter. Martin talked just a little about the book while appearing on Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s StarTalk. At some point, the talk turned towards the sense of realism in Martin’s books, and this exchange happened:

Martin: “I tried to be very accurate, for example, with horses. A lot of fantasy writers get horses all wrong. They make them these tireless beasts that can go anywhere and gallop for seven days straight.”

Tyson: “You don’t give the horses wings on their backs, like pegasus.”

Martin: “I have an interesting take on unicorns coming up in the new books. [smiles] Oops.”
...
In A Song of Ice and Fire, it’s said that there are unicorns on the isle of Skagos, a large island off the northeast coast of the continent. Home to the Skagosi, a cannibalistic people so fierce even the Starks leave them be, Jon glimpses unicorns once in a dream, where he sees as Rickon Stark’s direwolf Shaggydog eating one. At another point, a wildling passing through the Wall gives Jon a unicorn skull and horn as his “toll.”
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Jaymann »

Another possibility is he took too long. After GOT is over I may have no interest in reading about his blasted unicorns.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by JCC »

Yeah I just don't think he will ever finish the series, but I like the show better anyway. If he does finish the series I am sure I will read the final books. But, I am not bothering with any more until it's finished. (Exactly what I eventually did with Wheel of Time after the last Jordan book.)
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by msteelers »

Yeah, I think I would need the final book to come out before I revisit the books. It will be nice to revisit Westeros in 10 years.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Blackhawk »

I've yet to read any of them. Robert Jordan was the one who taught me to wait until a series is complete before I read it. The only exception I've made was for Patrick Rothfuss.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Pyperkub »

Blackhawk wrote:I've yet to read any of them. Robert Jordan was the one who taught me to wait until a series is complete before I read it. The only exception I've made was for Patrick Rothfuss.
I read the first few books when they were on an every 2 year release schedule, but since then I've decided to wait. Haven't seen any of the shows yet.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Pyperkub »

Blackhawk wrote:I've yet to read any of them. Robert Jordan was the one who taught me to wait until a series is complete before I read it. The only exception I've made was for Patrick Rothfuss.
I read the first Rothfuss book shortly before the second came out. Oops.

Sanderson's Stormlight series is going to take awhile too.

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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Isgrimnur »

New Zealand
I was surprised last night when Air New Zealand went to the internet to invite me down for a visit… to help me finish my book.
...
In short, I love New Zealand. You don’t need to convince me.

And as it happens, I already have plans to return. In the summer of 2020, Wellington is hosting the World Science Fiction Convention, the oldest and most important con in the SF/ fantasy calendar, and they’ve asked me to serve as Toastmaster for the Hugo Awards.
...
As for finishing my book… I fear that New Zealand would distract me entirely too much. Best leave me here in Westeros for the nonce. But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Everyone that thinks he’ll be done by next summer raise your hand. What? no takers?
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Isgrimnur »

What odds are you giving?
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Jaymann »

I am betting we will reach the seventh anniversary of this thread with no end in sight.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by MHS »

Odin wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:43 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote:I would bet a lot of money he is a chronic procrastinator (takes one to know one).
I actually suspect he is not. Given the number of side-projects he works on in a given year, he's actually fairly prolific. He usually writes/edits what seems like a yearly anthology with Gardner Dozois, he seems to turn out a new Wild Cards book every year or two, he writes an episode of Game of Thrones every season, he goes on book tours and attends conventions all over the world, etc., etc. I think if he were truly a procrastinator, he'd get a lot less accomplished.

I'm willing to accept that his issues with the mereenese knot (sp?) really did bedevil him with ADwD because I've been struggling with something similar for the last couple years. Granted, I definitely AM a classic procrastinator, so it's not a direct comparison, but I can definitely appreciate how sometimes you have a spot where you can't find a solution that makes sense within the scope of the characters and the nature of the story.

Now, if it takes him another six years to finish TWoW, I'll be a lot less accepting and more inclined to call sloth on him.
It’s been over 6 years. Please officially call him a sloth.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Smoove_B »

Silver lining?
For those of you who may be concerned for me personally… yes, I am aware that I am very much in the most vulnerable population, given my age and physical condition. But I feel fine at the moment, and we are taking all sensible precautions. I am off by myself in a remote isolated location, attended by one of my staff, and I’m not going in to town or seeing anyone. Truth be told, I am spending more time in Westeros than in the real world, writing every day. Things are pretty grim in the Seven Kingdoms… but maybe not as grim as they may become here.
Stay safe and healthy, good sir.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by pr0ner »

This thread hits 8 years in June; that Hugo Awards thing is in August. I'm gonna go ahead and predict TWoW will NOT be done by the time he's scheduled go to New Zealand (if the Hugo Awards don't get cancelled before then anyway).
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by MHS »

I don't even care at this point. I've hated the thought of rewarding him with my money after all this, but "knowing" I would do so anyway, but I think I've finally reached the point of just being able to NOPE my way out of buying anything he puts out now. What would be the point when I know WOW doesn't wrap things up and it would just be another decade until the next one? Forget HIM living that long, I don't know if I'd live that long.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Scuzz »

There is no way I am buying the next book unless it is the final book in the story, which it is not supposed to be. When the story is done (yea, right) I will buy the unread books.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Holman »

You folks talk like you've never spent a decade+ slamming your head against a manuscript...
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by pr0ner »

We're now two months away from a full decade since A Dance with Dragons was released. Still no sign of the next book.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Holman wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:27 pm You folks talk like you've never spent a decade+ slamming your head against a manuscript...
I feel attacked.
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The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Odin wrote:
Carpet_pissr wrote:I would bet a lot of money he is a chronic procrastinator (takes one to know one).
I actually suspect he is not. Given the number of side-projects he works on in a given year, he's actually fairly prolific. He usually writes/edits what seems like a yearly anthology with Gardner Dozois, he seems to turn out a new Wild Cards book every year or two, he writes an episode of Game of Thrones every season, he goes on book tours and attends conventions all over the world, etc., etc. I think if he were truly a procrastinator, he'd get a lot less accomplished.
Maybe I meant “acute” instead of “chronic” when I wrote this…6 years ago. :)

The intent was to convey that like me, he’s probably an especially hardcore procrastinator. Everyone procrastinates, but not everyone takes it to extreme levels where it creates more than just problems and headaches.

A truly Great Procrastinator (Civ) might get a LOT of stuff done. What he/she WON’T get done though, is The Thing that needs doing most.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Smoove_B »

Data point:
Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck, who write together under the pen name James S. A. Corey, started writing their Expanse series of science fiction novels in 2011, starting with Leviathan Wakes. Now, a decade later, they’ve turned in the ninth and final book in the series, Leviathan Falls. (See what they did there?)

That’s according to a tweet from Corey. What’s perhaps more interesting — and definitely funnier — is that the author(s) also revealed that by turning Leviathan Falls over to their publisher they won “my bet with [George R.R. Martin] that we’d beat him to the finish, which I think means we get all of his treasures.”

It’s not clear if the bet was to see whether Corey could finish The Expanse before Martin got out the long-awaited next A Song of Ice and Fire book, The Winds of Winter, or before he completed the series entirely. After a decade of waiting, I’d be happy just with the next novel, and then we can see where we are.
(emphasis added)

They wrote (and finished) a nine book series and GRRM has yet to release The Winds of Winter. That's....something.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Pyperkub »

Next up, Brandon Sanderson finishes all 10 books of The Stormlight books before GRRM finishes Winds of Winter.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Holman »

I have to suspect that the success, shortcuts, and criticisms wrapped up in the HBO treatment of the series really took the wind out of GRRM's sails for completing the series. Unless he's planning to make major alterations to the ending (more than just wrapping up plot threads the show ignored), it's got to feel a little like just producing the novelization of someone else's movie.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Jaymann »

But he also has the opportunity to go in a completely different direction, having an actual WINTER come, and leaving a trail of Stark corpses, except for Lady Stoneheart, of course who is already dead, who ascends to the throne.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Holman »

I wonder if there are any conditions in the HBO contract that prevent GRRM from deviating significantly from the show's arcs.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

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Here's hoping he exercises the FU money clause.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Sudy »

That might make sense at the start of the series when there was a reasonable expectation GRRM would release the next book before its conclusion, but it seems irrelevant now. Also doesn't seem like something he'd agree to (not that I know much about the man).

Honestly, it seems like people have been seriously speculating that the final books wouldn't be written since about season 3 or 4 of GoT. I've failed to hear a new theory in the last several years. It just seems to be a topic everyone loves to opine on and whine about. (Not meaning Holman or anyone here; more so the various professional blogs.)

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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Zaxxon »

Sudy wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:47 pm That might make sense at the start of the series when there was a reasonable expectation GRRM would release the next book before its conclusion, but it seems irrelevant now. Also doesn't seem like something he'd agree to (not that I know much about the man).

Honestly, it seems like people have been seriously speculating that the final books wouldn't be written since about season 3 or 4 of GoT. I've failed to hear a new theory in the last several years. It just seems to be a topic everyone loves to opine on and whine about. (Not meaning Holman or anyone here; more so the various professional blogs.)
Pretty sure the 'books won't be written before he croaks' discussion dates back at least half a decade before S1 of the show (around the AFfC era).
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Sudy »

OK; I plead ignorance, I didn't know of the books before I saw the show. But I didn't start seeing a yearly article on io9 until then. :lol:

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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by pr0ner »

Smoove_B wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:32 pm Data point:
Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck, who write together under the pen name James S. A. Corey, started writing their Expanse series of science fiction novels in 2011, starting with Leviathan Wakes. Now, a decade later, they’ve turned in the ninth and final book in the series, Leviathan Falls. (See what they did there?)

That’s according to a tweet from Corey. What’s perhaps more interesting — and definitely funnier — is that the author(s) also revealed that by turning Leviathan Falls over to their publisher they won “my bet with [George R.R. Martin] that we’d beat him to the finish, which I think means we get all of his treasures.”

It’s not clear if the bet was to see whether Corey could finish The Expanse before Martin got out the long-awaited next A Song of Ice and Fire book, The Winds of Winter, or before he completed the series entirely. After a decade of waiting, I’d be happy just with the next novel, and then we can see where we are.
(emphasis added)

They wrote (and finished) a nine book series and GRRM has yet to release The Winds of Winter. That's....something.
They also wrote a few novellas and episodes of the TV series in that time.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by JCC »

I honestly don't care whether he finishes the books or not. I prefered the show to the books, and I wasn't all that upset over the ending (spoiler) (aside from Dany snapping for no reason when she had won).

They should just hire Sanderson to finish the damn books now and not wait for Martin to die with the series unfinished. The books would immediately improve and things would get moving.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Carpet_pissr »

JCC wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:53 am I honestly don't care whether he finishes the books or not. I prefered the show to the books,
!!! Wow. Did you read them all?

The series is AMAZING TV, don't get me wrong. It's fantastic, and I loved it (hell, everybody in the world loved it apparently). But it pales in comparison to the books because of the super slow, sweet burn that epically long books can produce, not to mention the complexity and color that was lost by necessity in the series.

I fully get:
Generally accepted bad book, but generally accepted great movie/show
Generally accepted bad movie/show, but generally accepted great book

But generally accepted great book and generally accepted great show, where the show is better than the book? Hard sell (for me).
Last edited by Carpet_pissr on Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Rumpy »

Or hire Daniel Abraham, who himself has been writing his own fantasy series, who largely has been taught by Martin himself. His series, the Dagger & Coin series has been oft-compared to GoT.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Jeff V »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:04 pm But generally accepted great book and generally accepted great show, where the show is better than the book? Hard sell (for me).
There are remarkable limitations on how much detail from books can be translated to film. Even though GoT was lots of hours long, the books too were long and still had much detail that wasn't feasible to put into the show.

This has, incidentally, always been the case. Back in the 1920's, Erich von Strohheim directed a 6 hour movie based on Frank Norris' McTeague. The studio thought it too long, had another director cut it to 2.5 hours and the result was a total flop. The end scenes were filmed on location in Death Valley and that movie is still widely considered the first major production to be filmed on site.

There is, though, a very good reason why a good book will always be better than a movie, no matter how great the movie might be. In a good book, the author engages the reader's imagination to create imagery that is very personal to that reader. A movie/series is someone else's interpretation of the text, and since it's a personal thing, it will seem off to everyone else watching that show who is familiar with the book. GoT is a great series of novels, and the GoT TV series is, excepting the last season, a fantastic cinematic accomplishment. It's rare that you can experience such awesomeness in multiple media, and this is a case where everyone should.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by JCC »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:04 pm !!! Wow. Did you read them all?
Yes I have read every book. I initially was so put off by the first book (which I read years before the HBO show came on) that I was resistant to even watching the show. Of course, I finally did watch the show (and loved it) when there were 2-3 seasons in the books.

I then reread the series when there were the current 5 books. While I wasn't as put off by the first one the second go around and did make it through all of them, I still greatly prefer the TV show overall.

The reality is he has been it's been 10 years since book 5 came out. He's a little over 3 months from being 73. It is extremely unlikely he will finish the series. Especially, since he will likely be trying to change his original ending based on the (IMO mostly silly) backlash to the way it ended on TV. It wouldn't surprise me at all if book 6 has to be finished by someone else, much less however many books he plans for the series to be.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Jeff V wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:01 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:04 pm But generally accepted great book and generally accepted great show, where the show is better than the book? Hard sell (for me).
There is, though, a very good reason why a good book will always be better than a movie, no matter how great the movie might be. In a good book, the author engages the reader's imagination to create imagery that is very personal to that reader. A movie/series is someone else's interpretation of the text, and since it's a personal thing, it will seem off to everyone else watching that show who is familiar with the book. GoT is a great series of novels, and the GoT TV series is, excepting the last season, a fantastic cinematic accomplishment. It's rare that you can experience such awesomeness in multiple media, and this is a case where everyone should.
Yep.

I saw a clip of Stephen King (?) the other day talking about this very issue. If you are to "consume" both versions (book and screen), order can be very important.

His example was "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". Basically, if you watched the movie first, when you read the book, there is no way in hell you AREN'T going to see Jack Nicholson's iconic crazy smiling mug in your mind's eye for that character. That's neither good nor bad, it just removes quite a bit of imagination on your part, from the equation.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Jeff V »

Maybe Martin is being paid by HBO to not upstage the series with a different ending. When he dies, maybe they claim ownership of the IP, and pay someone else to write the book exactly as they filmed it.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by Sudy »

Sure. Maybe GRRM is just Richard Plepler in a fat suit, and he's still secretly pulling HBO's strings from Apple TV.

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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

Post by LordMortis »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:02 pm
Jeff V wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:01 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:04 pm But generally accepted great book and generally accepted great show, where the show is better than the book? Hard sell (for me).
There is, though, a very good reason why a good book will always be better than a movie, no matter how great the movie might be. In a good book, the author engages the reader's imagination to create imagery that is very personal to that reader. A movie/series is someone else's interpretation of the text, and since it's a personal thing, it will seem off to everyone else watching that show who is familiar with the book. GoT is a great series of novels, and the GoT TV series is, excepting the last season, a fantastic cinematic accomplishment. It's rare that you can experience such awesomeness in multiple media, and this is a case where everyone should.
Yep.

I saw a clip of Stephen King (?) the other day talking about this very issue. If you are to "consume" both versions (book and screen), order can be very important.

His example was "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". Basically, if you watched the movie first, when you read the book, there is no way in hell you AREN'T going to see Jack Nicholson's iconic crazy smiling mug in your mind's eye for that character. That's neither good nor bad, it just removes quite a bit of imagination on your part, from the equation.
I might be in a minority here. I had seen the movie several times before reading the novel and I was blown away with how much the novel completely reshaped my relationship with narration. The novel quickly changed everything for me and stood completely independent... It probably helps that I don't have much of a visual imagination. :o

I mentioned this another thread just a couple days ago, that this is what holds OFOtCN and Clockwork Orange in such high regard for me. The movies and novels are so good in their own right that they each stand alone very tall. And they are each so radically different. In the movie, they change the protagonist from The Chief to Randall(? It's been several decades since I've read or seen) because Randall is bigger than life to the Chief who believes he comes from a family of small men. And there is this whole ubiquitous allegory with what it means to be big or small that simply doesn't exist in the movie. And yet both were absolutely fantastic in their own lanes.
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Re: The Winds of Winter [GRRM] [NotDoneYet]

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LordMortis wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:49 pm I might be in a minority here. I had seen the movie several times before reading the novel and I was blown away with how much the novel completely reshaped my relationship with narration. The novel quickly changed everything for me and stood completely independent... It probably helps that I don't have much of a visual imagination. :o
You and I don't always agree on movies/books/art (want to come over and watch Rushmore with me?), but I'm with you here. I saw the movie first (loved it) and later was blown away by the book. It's similar to my relationship with L.A. Confidential (loved the movie, later blown away by the book).
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