So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace!
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- $iljanus
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So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace!
Didn't want to clutter up the buying the first home thread since this isn't our first home and I didn't want to derail Jeff V's telling of his real estate adventures!
But this is our first purchase of a home built in the 1850's and along with the fieldstone foundation (which has been mortared in the 20th century and there seem to be no moisture problems as per the inspection. I was happy that we had a couple of days of rain to help put it to the test) we also have elevated levels of Radon. EPA guidelines recommend mitigation when you have levels above 4pCi/L (my old lab brain geeked out when being told about pCi and how a scintillation counter was being used for the test. Sigh... ) Unfortunately the levels came back at 12 pCi/L. I don't know if that's really high or not but regardless we're going for the mitigation. Lucky for us we requested that the seller agree to paying for mitigation if the results came back above acceptable levels and they accepted.
Now I have some questions which I suspect Smoove would be salivating to answer but would love input from others as well:
Anyone with experience having radon in their house and what steps they took to mitigate it.
Would love to learn more about the process involved in lowering the levels of radon in your home.
Gotta love fieldstone foundations. I affectionately call them "kidnap basements" or "Silence of the Lambs basements" because most of them give off that vibe. This kidnap basement is in better shape than others we've seen.
Thanks for any input y'all may have!
Oh, and I thought we were going to get off easy but that cutting edge electrical circuitry from the turn of the century (19th-20th) called knob and tube was found in the house. Only one live wire but where there's one... Lucky for us that's a thing that the seller needs to take care of and it's being done.
But this is our first purchase of a home built in the 1850's and along with the fieldstone foundation (which has been mortared in the 20th century and there seem to be no moisture problems as per the inspection. I was happy that we had a couple of days of rain to help put it to the test) we also have elevated levels of Radon. EPA guidelines recommend mitigation when you have levels above 4pCi/L (my old lab brain geeked out when being told about pCi and how a scintillation counter was being used for the test. Sigh... ) Unfortunately the levels came back at 12 pCi/L. I don't know if that's really high or not but regardless we're going for the mitigation. Lucky for us we requested that the seller agree to paying for mitigation if the results came back above acceptable levels and they accepted.
Now I have some questions which I suspect Smoove would be salivating to answer but would love input from others as well:
Anyone with experience having radon in their house and what steps they took to mitigate it.
Would love to learn more about the process involved in lowering the levels of radon in your home.
Gotta love fieldstone foundations. I affectionately call them "kidnap basements" or "Silence of the Lambs basements" because most of them give off that vibe. This kidnap basement is in better shape than others we've seen.
Thanks for any input y'all may have!
Oh, and I thought we were going to get off easy but that cutting edge electrical circuitry from the turn of the century (19th-20th) called knob and tube was found in the house. Only one live wire but where there's one... Lucky for us that's a thing that the seller needs to take care of and it's being done.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Bring on the knowledge, brotha! Testify!Smoove_B wrote:
(Good golly Horseshack looks so young! Off to dig up info on actor)
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
I was just lecturing about Radon last week. Had I known you were up to your eyeballs in picoCuries, I would have invited you.
So I can't say much about actually dealing with it as a homeowner, but I can tell you what you might be faced with. The good news is that 12 pCi/L is really just over the level of concern. In the dozens and dozens of radon situations I've been involved with, ranges around 8-15 pCi/L were common. I think I saw once something around 20; nothing ever higher. It's really not until you get to 100 that eyebrows are raised and I can't recall ever seeing (or hearing) a case like that.
There's really going to be two ways to deal with it. The expensive way and the really expensive way. The first would involve the application of a sealant on all of your beautiful basement flagstone. All cracks and crevices would be repaired and the sealant applied over the top. Unless things have changed, the sealant is like masonry sealant - thick and ugly. If the basement floor is unfinished (i.e. bare soil) they're going to pour a foundation in and seal that. I've also seen situations where if it's a crawl space they'll put down thick plastic - sort of like a green house, but floor level - to seal the floor. I don't think that's a good solution (personally) if you need to access the basement for maintenance or storage. It's cheaper and likely fine in terms of mitigation, but in terms of use, I wouldn't want it.
Now, if there's already a floor, we get into the really expensive way - installation of a sub-slab suction system (surprisingly safe to google) or a drain tile suction system. Houses (at least in NJ) that were built in the mid to late 1980s had these systems installed as part of the construction process - because it's easier (and cheaper) to put them in when you're building the home. To retro-fit a home from the 1850s is going to require someone that knows what they're doing. IF you don't have a floor and they need to pour one in, I would hope they'd also add the sub-slab suction at this point as well, not just relying on the foundation sealant.
Not knowing anything about the Radon tier your home would be in (or what Radon is like in your part of 'Merica) it's hard for me to say exactly what to expect -- but the levels aren't high enough (in my professional opinion) to warrant concern. It'll just be a matter of mitigation, re-testing and certification that everything is terrific.
What I would urge (if the home is on a well) is that you have the water tested for radionuclide contamination. Again, not knowing anything about your part of the country, I can't say for sure if it's an issue. Even in NJ, only 1/2 the state is at risk for this problem (South Jersey) -- enjoy your water mutants! In addition to radon gas creeping into and concentrating in your basement, it can get into your water supply and then blast you in the face every morning when you take a shower. At that point, you're just breathing in the radiation despite not being in the basement.
They'll probably use expanding foam in either situation to seal the sill space between the house and the foundation (assuming it's wood on stone construction). Really, you're doing everything you can to make the home impenetrable to the radon that is trying to get in.
We have one of those sub-slab systems in our house and a fan running 24/7 to collect and evacuate Radon into the side yard. It's pretty much standard issue in NJ at this point.
So I can't say much about actually dealing with it as a homeowner, but I can tell you what you might be faced with. The good news is that 12 pCi/L is really just over the level of concern. In the dozens and dozens of radon situations I've been involved with, ranges around 8-15 pCi/L were common. I think I saw once something around 20; nothing ever higher. It's really not until you get to 100 that eyebrows are raised and I can't recall ever seeing (or hearing) a case like that.
There's really going to be two ways to deal with it. The expensive way and the really expensive way. The first would involve the application of a sealant on all of your beautiful basement flagstone. All cracks and crevices would be repaired and the sealant applied over the top. Unless things have changed, the sealant is like masonry sealant - thick and ugly. If the basement floor is unfinished (i.e. bare soil) they're going to pour a foundation in and seal that. I've also seen situations where if it's a crawl space they'll put down thick plastic - sort of like a green house, but floor level - to seal the floor. I don't think that's a good solution (personally) if you need to access the basement for maintenance or storage. It's cheaper and likely fine in terms of mitigation, but in terms of use, I wouldn't want it.
Now, if there's already a floor, we get into the really expensive way - installation of a sub-slab suction system (surprisingly safe to google) or a drain tile suction system. Houses (at least in NJ) that were built in the mid to late 1980s had these systems installed as part of the construction process - because it's easier (and cheaper) to put them in when you're building the home. To retro-fit a home from the 1850s is going to require someone that knows what they're doing. IF you don't have a floor and they need to pour one in, I would hope they'd also add the sub-slab suction at this point as well, not just relying on the foundation sealant.
Not knowing anything about the Radon tier your home would be in (or what Radon is like in your part of 'Merica) it's hard for me to say exactly what to expect -- but the levels aren't high enough (in my professional opinion) to warrant concern. It'll just be a matter of mitigation, re-testing and certification that everything is terrific.
What I would urge (if the home is on a well) is that you have the water tested for radionuclide contamination. Again, not knowing anything about your part of the country, I can't say for sure if it's an issue. Even in NJ, only 1/2 the state is at risk for this problem (South Jersey) -- enjoy your water mutants! In addition to radon gas creeping into and concentrating in your basement, it can get into your water supply and then blast you in the face every morning when you take a shower. At that point, you're just breathing in the radiation despite not being in the basement.
They'll probably use expanding foam in either situation to seal the sill space between the house and the foundation (assuming it's wood on stone construction). Really, you're doing everything you can to make the home impenetrable to the radon that is trying to get in.
We have one of those sub-slab systems in our house and a fan running 24/7 to collect and evacuate Radon into the side yard. It's pretty much standard issue in NJ at this point.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Thanks Smoove!
So the house is in Lexington MA, the birthplace of our fight for freedom and in zone 1 on the EPA radon map. Our basement floor is concrete and we are not on well water which as you have said would have just been another way to ingest some nucleotides.
Thanks for giving some perspective to the reading. To the uninitiated 12 is three times as much as 4 which sounds like a lot numerically but without some background it can be misleading. That said, since the seller is covering it then we'll hold them to it since there's no guarantee that the folks we may sell the house to in the future might not have an Internet forum to ask for advice from.
Will post which route the seller decides to go. Luckily the seller wanted a closing date in mid June which worked great for us since our current lease expires at the end of June so any work to be done should be done by then.
So the house is in Lexington MA, the birthplace of our fight for freedom and in zone 1 on the EPA radon map. Our basement floor is concrete and we are not on well water which as you have said would have just been another way to ingest some nucleotides.
Thanks for giving some perspective to the reading. To the uninitiated 12 is three times as much as 4 which sounds like a lot numerically but without some background it can be misleading. That said, since the seller is covering it then we'll hold them to it since there's no guarantee that the folks we may sell the house to in the future might not have an Internet forum to ask for advice from.
Will post which route the seller decides to go. Luckily the seller wanted a closing date in mid June which worked great for us since our current lease expires at the end of June so any work to be done should be done by then.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Ok Im totally blind on this but wouldn't a simple vent fan in the basement / underpinning ...like a attic fan...be enough to keep it vented? Isn't it simply a problem when the area is sealed too well?
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Kinda. Radon's pretty heavy (like, heavier than O2 and CO2), so it settles to the bottom and doesn't go up very easily. So my guess is that you can't really get it "up and out", you have to get it "down and out".Daehawk wrote:Ok Im totally blind on this but wouldn't a simple vent fan in the basement / underpinning ...like a attic fan...be enough to keep it vented? Isn't it simply a problem when the area is sealed too well?
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
We had a mitigation system put in place when we bought our place back in 2010. Ours is an 'active sump pit' system, which cost just shy of a grand back in 2010. It dropped our levels well below 4 and is still running strong today.
Of course, we already had the sump pump and it's located right adjacent to where they wanted to run the exhaust pipe, so YMMV on cost.
Of course, we already had the sump pump and it's located right adjacent to where they wanted to run the exhaust pipe, so YMMV on cost.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Ah, I see. I did not know it was heavy. Ours is just an under floor space and has vents plus drafty cracks that are like unwanted vents haha. Home is very breezy. We have storm windows and in a breeze our curtains wiggle anyways. My kerosene heater hasn't even gotten us yet hahha....ok thats not funny.NickAragua wrote:Kinda. Radon's pretty heavy (like, heavier than O2 and CO2), so it settles to the bottom and doesn't go up very easily. So my guess is that you can't really get it "up and out", you have to get it "down and out".Daehawk wrote:Ok Im totally blind on this but wouldn't a simple vent fan in the basement / underpinning ...like a attic fan...be enough to keep it vented? Isn't it simply a problem when the area is sealed too well?
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- Smoove_B
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
I've seen mixed results with these and (at least here in NJ) they're not something that would be floated as an initial option. As long as it's working that's all that matters and for $1,000 you really cannot complain.Zaxxon wrote:We had a mitigation system put in place when we bought our place back in 2010. Ours is an 'active sump pit' system, which cost just shy of a grand back in 2010. It dropped our levels well below 4 and is still running strong today.
Of course, we already had the sump pump and it's located right adjacent to where they wanted to run the exhaust pipe, so YMMV on cost.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
The radon issue (and indoor air problems in general) is one of those unintended consequences of the energy crisis of the 1970s. Once we started sealing homes up with insulation to reduce heating and cooling bills, that really kicked off a previously unknown problem. As it stands, there still aren't federal regulations for residential indoor air - only guidelines.Daehawk wrote:Ah, I see. I did not know it was heavy. Ours is just an under floor space and has vents plus drafty cracks that are like unwanted vents haha. Home is very breezy. We have storm windows and in a breeze our curtains wiggle anyways.
All of the radon recommendations are based on studies of miners and the negative health consequences they experienced after working for decades underground. Really, radon isn't going to be a problem for most people, though if you're a basement dweller that smokes all day, your chances of lung cancer are going to be noticeably increased above someone that's just a smoker. The data I've seen suggests somewhere around 20,000 lung cancer deaths a year in non-smokers are linked to radon - it's the leading cause of lung cancer in non-smokers. Quite easy to address - like putting a CO detector in your home.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
It works, yes. It's just not ideal (in my experience) because you're taking a system that was designed to intercept water and re purposing it for radon. Sometimes a company (or home seller) will propose this as a cheap way to address radon. After installation and re-testing, it doesn't work, so now you need to spend even more. As long as you have test results to demonstrate it is indeed mitigating radon, that's all that matters. There's just so many variables and because it's a system based off pressure, you need to know what you're doing to install it - not any different than anything else related to a home. There were many fly-by-night radon "experts" that appeared in NJ in the early days and cobbled together half-assed systems and made lots and lots of money doing so.Zaxxon wrote:What's the reason why? The EPA seems to think it's a cromulent method.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Roger. So basically it's issues with incompetent applications of the concept, not the concept itself. Yeah, we had a 24-hour follow-up test and a pressure monitor so we can see it's still working.
Might not be a bad idea to do another follow-up test now, seven years later, though.
Might not be a bad idea to do another follow-up test now, seven years later, though.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
I spent 90% of the money I made on women, booze, and drugs. The other 10% I just pissed away.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
A house that old I'd be way more worried about all the ghosts from the bodies of slaves and Indians buried in that basement...
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
This thread is timely. I recently ran a radon test in our basement and am waiting on the results.
Out of curiosity, if your basement is still drafty, what's the likelihood of high radon levels? We've got a large space, and the basement door has daylight all around it. Additionally, the roll-up door has an unsealed hole about 6" wide near the bottom of it (I assume someone fed an exhaust pipe out of it at some point or something). I've always figured that if we had a radon issue, it would constantly and slowly "pour" out of that hole and never really build up - like a large tub with a drain hole left open.Smoove_B wrote:The radon issue (and indoor air problems in general) is one of those unintended consequences of the energy crisis of the 1970s. Once we started sealing homes up with insulation to reduce heating and cooling bills, that really kicked off a previously unknown problem. As it stands, there still aren't federal regulations for residential indoor air - only guidelines.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
It's all about pressure. If your basement space is has a net-negative pressure (so it's drawing air in), all those holes and gaps are just points through which radon is funneling into your basement space and accumulating. That's the overall goal of these mitigation system - seal the overall space and introduce positive pressure to collect and push the radon back outside.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
We got our tests back and our levels are 1.8 pCi/L - which is below the 4.0 pCi/L "Danger Level" and not much to worry about, yes?
The tests were done in a closed basement with normal traffic. We do use that as the general exit from the house, and as stated before, it's pretty drafty down there.
The tests were done in a closed basement with normal traffic. We do use that as the general exit from the house, and as stated before, it's pretty drafty down there.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Mine came back at 2.1. It spiked above 4 a few times and then dropped down to almost 0 a few times.
1850s in Massachusetts is still a young pup. The oldest existing timber frame house on the continent is in MA and dates to 1637. If it wasn't for the Spanish missionaries in New Mexico, it'd be the oldest non-Native American building on the continent; New Jersey would have the second oldest at 1638. The Pickering House in Salem is somewhere around 1650 and was owned and occupied continuously by the Pickering family until 1998. I think the oldest in Lexington, Silj's new town, is 1715-ish.Z-Corn wrote:A house that old I'd be way more worried about all the ghosts from the bodies of slaves and Indians buried in that basement...
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Kelric wrote:Mine came back at 2.1. It spiked above 4 a few times and then dropped down to almost 0 a few times.
1850s in Massachusetts is still a young pup. The oldest existing timber frame house on the continent is in MA and dates to 1637. If it wasn't for the Spanish missionaries in New Mexico, it'd be the oldest non-Native American building on the continent; New Jersey would have the second oldest at 1638. The Pickering House in Salem is somewhere around 1650 and was owned and occupied continuously by the Pickering family until 1998. I think the oldest in Lexington, Silj's new town, is 1715-ish.Z-Corn wrote:A house that old I'd be way more worried about all the ghosts from the bodies of slaves and Indians buried in that basement...
So y'all are just used to the ghosts then?
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
My data might be a little old, but average indoor radon levels are 1.4 pCi/L and the outside background levels are 0.3 pCi/L. I'd probably still do testing periodically to make sure nothing changes, but yeah, you're below the levels where action would be recommended.Paingod wrote:We got our tests back and our levels are 1.8 pCi/L - which is below the 4.0 pCi/L "Danger Level" and not much to worry about, yes?
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Here's a video of a radon removal system install etc:
While feeding all the beasties out back I let a nice big fart. The smell followed all the way back to the house. It's like it was my baby and felt abandoned.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
I'm just excited that I won't become a Glowing One by working in my basement.Smoove_B wrote:My data might be a little old, but average indoor radon levels are 1.4 pCi/L and the outside background levels are 0.3 pCi/L. I'd probably still do testing periodically to make sure nothing changes, but yeah, you're below the levels where action would be recommended.Paingod wrote:We got our tests back and our levels are 1.8 pCi/L - which is below the 4.0 pCi/L "Danger Level" and not much to worry about, yes?
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
My Philadelphia house is 1860, but I go to a tavern where Lafayette stayed after the Battle of Germantown.Kelric wrote:Mine came back at 2.1. It spiked above 4 a few times and then dropped down to almost 0 a few times.
1850s in Massachusetts is still a young pup. The oldest existing timber frame house on the continent is in MA and dates to 1637. If it wasn't for the Spanish missionaries in New Mexico, it'd be the oldest non-Native American building on the continent; New Jersey would have the second oldest at 1638. The Pickering House in Salem is somewhere around 1650 and was owned and occupied continuously by the Pickering family until 1998. I think the oldest in Lexington, Silj's new town, is 1715-ish.Z-Corn wrote:A house that old I'd be way more worried about all the ghosts from the bodies of slaves and Indians buried in that basement...
Judging from the maps, it's possible that Gen. Stephens (who was drunk during the battle and was court-martialed for it) visited there beforehand.
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
I humbly submit The Old House, dated 1649 by the ancestor that brought my family name to this lump of dirt.Kelric wrote:Mine came back at 2.1. It spiked above 4 a few times and then dropped down to almost 0 a few times.
1850s in Massachusetts is still a young pup. The oldest existing timber frame house on the continent is in MA and dates to 1637. If it wasn't for the Spanish missionaries in New Mexico, it'd be the oldest non-Native American building on the continent; New Jersey would have the second oldest at 1638. The Pickering House in Salem is somewhere around 1650 and was owned and occupied continuously by the Pickering family until 1998. I think the oldest in Lexington, Silj's new town, is 1715-ish.Z-Corn wrote:A house that old I'd be way more worried about all the ghosts from the bodies of slaves and Indians buried in that basement...
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Update: So radon lurking in the cellar is no longer the menace it once was due to the installation of a sub-slab depressurization system which is now venting the gas harmlessly into the air. New radon levels are 0.7 pCi/L so if I want to get lung cancer I need to do it the old fashioned way and start smoking Camel lights again. Haven't been back to the house since the system was installed so hopefully when we drop by before closing the fan doesn't sound like a loud prop plane taking off...
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Black lives matter!
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
- Smoove_B
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Fan is usually pretty quiet; shouldn't be a big deal. Do the laws in your state require that it vents above the roof? Mine vents right at the foundation sill - about 3 feet off the ground because it was put in before the laws changed. There's a butterfly bush there that it blasts radon on that I'm assuming is going to eventually mutate enough, pull itself from the ground and help take on Isengard.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- $iljanus
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Don't know the state regs but the paperwork said that it was venting above the roof edge. So the foliage around the house should remain rather ordinary.
Black lives matter!
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
- stessier
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
The wasps, though - hoooo-BOY!$iljanus wrote:Don't know the state regs but the paperwork said that it was venting above the roof edge. So the foliage around the house should remain rather ordinary.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
Running__ | __2014: 1300.55 miles__ | __2015: 2036.13 miles__ | __2016: 1012.75 miles__ | __2017: 1105.82 miles__ | __2018: 1318.91 miles | __2019: 2000.00 miles |
- $iljanus
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Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Ahhh shit. Homeownership is hard enough without the damn giant wasps.stessier wrote:The wasps, though - hoooo-BOY!$iljanus wrote:Don't know the state regs but the paperwork said that it was venting above the roof edge. So the foliage around the house should remain rather ordinary.
Black lives matter!
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
-
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- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:21 pm
- Location: San Gabriel, CA
Re: So tell me more about Radon...the hidden (cellar) menace
Feed me, Seymour Smoove_B!Smoove_B wrote:There's a butterfly bush there that it blasts radon on that I'm assuming is going to eventually mutate enough, pull itself from the ground and help take on Isengard.
Black Lives Matter