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Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Skinypupy »

Grifman wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:17 pm Thirty percent of Republicans think Trump will be reinstated as president:
Thirty percent of Republicans believe a lot of things.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Zarathud »

Skinypupy wrote:
Grifman wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:17 pm Thirty percent of Republicans think Trump will be reinstated as president:
Thirty percent of Republicans believe a lot of ridiculous things.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by hepcat »

Honestly, I feel like the takeaway is 70 percent don't think he will be reinstated. I could have sworn that number was much lower as recently as 2 months ago or so.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LordMortis »

hepcat wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:52 pm Honestly, I feel like the takeaway is 70 percent don't think he will be reinstated. I could have sworn that number was much lower as recently as 2 months ago or so.
I would like that to be my takeaway as well. Maybe I can convince myself of this. 70% is herd immunity, right? Where the 57% we seemed to keep coming across was infectious disease is going to spread uncontrolled.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Smoove_B »

Right, but if it's 30% believe it and 50% don't care, you now have only 20% that know Trump isn't going to be reinstated. Which means that 30% is driving the bus while that additional 50% just votes and supports the (R) agenda regardless because that's what they do.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by hepcat »

I can see where being an optimist like me would view the glass as half full, while pessimists would view the glass as half empty. However, we should never discount the optometrists who just see the glass is there.

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Idaho goes fascist:

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Sounds like a Taliban state.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Grifman »

Grifman wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:17 pm Thirty percent of Republicans think Trump will be reinstated as president:



Between this and Covid insanity, the US is doomed.
It gets worse:

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by stessier »

The 31% are technically correct (at least as it is phrased in the tweet).
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by YellowKing »

I found this to be the more chilling statistic:
In another key finding, 77 of all respondents said that they believe America’s democracy is being threatened, including 82 percent of Republicans and 77 percent of Democrats.
Not only do they not see how they're threatening democracy, they believe somehow they're actually *saving* it. This is religious fanaticism levels of crazy, and that's a very difficult thing to fight.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LordMortis »

stessier wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:23 pm The 31% are technically correct (at least as it is phrased in the tweet).
He doesn't need to concede, it doesn't make the loss any less true. It's also not in the best interest of the US to resist the peaceful transition of power which make loser a pretty horrible candidate for president.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Scraper »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:50 pm I found this to be the more chilling statistic:
In another key finding, 77 of all respondents said that they believe America’s democracy is being threatened, including 82 percent of Republicans and 77 percent of Democrats.
Not only do they not see how they're threatening democracy, they believe somehow they're actually *saving* it. This is religious fanaticism levels of crazy, and that's a very difficult thing to fight.
This is exactly true. Living in the middle of red America I can tell you that they think that the democrats are pure evil and the only way to "save" America is through Trump. There is a giant disconnect from reality.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Kraken »

The good news is the vast majority of Americans want to save democracy. The bad news is that our ideas of what that means are polar opposites.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LordMortis »

Scraper wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:41 pm
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:50 pm I found this to be the more chilling statistic:
In another key finding, 77 of all respondents said that they believe America’s democracy is being threatened, including 82 percent of Republicans and 77 percent of Democrats.
Not only do they not see how they're threatening democracy, they believe somehow they're actually *saving* it. This is religious fanaticism levels of crazy, and that's a very difficult thing to fight.
This is exactly true. Living in the middle of red America I can tell you that they think that the democrats are pure evil and the only way to "save" America is through Trump. There is a giant disconnect from reality.
My experience is increasingly they don't like the word democracy. They deny that a constitutionally limited republic is in fact a form of democracy. Democracy = Socialism = Evil democrats trying to make everyone equally poor and enslaved to government tyranny. The very games of linguistic sophistry that drove me away from my libertarian leanings are the ones hardening into larger core beliefs. :(
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Grifman »

I just saw a friend on FB say that Biden was slowly leading the US to communism. Seriously? Exactly what policies has Biden passed or even proposed that are even slightly communist? Obviously, communism is just "anything I don't like" and has nothing to do with actual, you know, communism :doh:
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

Grifman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:10 am I just saw a friend on FB say that Biden was slowly leading the US to communism. Seriously? Exactly what policies has Biden passed or even proposed that are even slightly communist? Obviously, communism is just "anything I don't like" and has nothing to do with actual, you know, communism :doh:
Sort of on topic but this touches on a core point of a book I am in the towards the end reading, Stuart Steven's 'It Was All a Lie'. It is a bit of a mea culpa account where he describes all the bad things he did to get us where we are working as a top-end Republican political consultant. In the end he has pretty proved to me that everything you hear from the right is coded racism. Not that it a huge surprise but he talks about how this happened and why it still works. In the end, maybe the person on FB has been tricked into buying the line. The point is that people behind the message sold it to enable them to identify as a participant in the coalition to preserve the white power structure. A series of folk tales that are meant to help them obfuscate the racist center of it all.

I thought the idea that it was only about white power was too simple in the past. However, he was essentially one of the architects of racist strategies and he lays it out end to end starting from Goldwater who sheared the party and forced them down this road. He actually composites the book in an inverted structure similar to an academic paper. He doesn't build to this point. Instead the first chapter lays out the case for that essential point and how Republican strategies exploited nativist racism for power. For example, he laid out examples of how Reagan really pressed and exploited racism in ways I was unaware of. The rest of the book is peeling back every folk story lie and exposing how they don't actually believe the lie and their policies never actually address solving the lie. It's a very well executed book.
Last edited by malchior on Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by YellowKing »

Yeah these folks live in an alternate reality. My wife had a conversation with her biological dad the other night. He's a die-hard Trumper and was asking her if she was happy now that we had this "disastrous" President in office and how horrible everything was now. She asked him what, exactly, was so horrible compared to the Trump presidency and the only thing he could come up with was gas prices. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LordMortis »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:33 am Yeah these folks live in an alternate reality. My wife had a conversation with her biological dad the other night. He's a die-hard Trumper and was asking her if she was happy now that we had this "disastrous" President in office and how horrible everything was now. She asked him what, exactly, was so horrible compared to the Trump presidency and the only thing he could come up with was gas prices. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Wow. Gas prices wasn't even on my radar. Gas prices are a sign of "re opening" with a small side of Colonial Pipeline shutdown. That said, if EV are the enemy then gas prices should be even higher as the economy killing EV production continues to ramp up. (Though I do have concerns about decreased gas consumption will decrease tax collection, aka road maintenance) My conservative earwigs kinda go the other way (though talking both sides in every conversation seems to be common), they suggest that petrol is global and decreased US consumption only means increased affordable fuel in Asia and Eastern Europe and is therefore meaningless.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:50 pm I found this to be the more chilling statistic:
In another key finding, 77 of all respondents said that they believe America’s democracy is being threatened, including 82 percent of Republicans and 77 percent of Democrats.
Not only do they not see how they're threatening democracy, they believe somehow they're actually *saving* it. This is religious fanaticism levels of crazy, and that's a very difficult thing to fight.
Yes, this. I've said it a few times, but it bears repeating that this is going to be the ultimate cause of the break/rift/civil war/next step.

If you truly believe you are on the side of right, AND stuck in a "ends justifies the means" mentality, that is a HUGE danger. Add in a mix of FB and right wing media frenzy and whipping up shit, and I really think Jan 6 was just a minor precursor to what is coming.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:50 pm I found this to be the more chilling statistic:
In another key finding, 77 of all respondents said that they believe America’s democracy is being threatened, including 82 percent of Republicans and 77 percent of Democrats.
Not only do they not see how they're threatening democracy, they believe somehow they're actually *saving* it. This is religious fanaticism levels of crazy, and that's a very difficult thing to fight.
Yes, this. I've said it a few times, but it bears repeating that this is going to be the ultimate cause of the break/rift/civil war/next step.

If you truly believe you are on the side of right, AND stuck in a "ends justifies the means" mentality, that is a HUGE danger. Add in a mix of FB and right wing media frenzy and whipping up shit, and I really think Jan 6 was just a minor precursor to what is coming.
A good example is the Bundy klan out in Oregon/Idaho/Nevada. They have been fighting with the federal government for years, the federal government couldn't hang anything on them (some due to jury nullification), and 5-years later after the Oregon takeover a Bundy is intimately involved in the Idaho issues referenced up thread. This isn't new but it is finally becoming focused as their runway is running out to keep power without resorting to more extreme measures. And essentially hoping it gets better on its own is fantasy. It is almost certainly going to get worse either as they consolidate power or as it slips away.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Alefroth »

LordMortis wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:37 am My experience is increasingly they don't like the word democracy. They deny that a constitutionally limited republic is in fact a form of democracy. Democracy = Socialism = Evil democrats trying to make everyone equally poor and enslaved to government tyranny. The very games of linguistic sophistry that drove me away from my libertarian leanings are the ones hardening into larger core beliefs. :(
I've been seeing the "We aren't a democracy!" retort a lot lately. Really, that's your battle cry now?
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

That is entirely in line with saying the Democrats aren't legitimate.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:24 pm That is entirely in line with saying the Democrats dark-skinned people aren't legitimate.
Honestly I think 95%+ of this shit is driven by the "Flight 91 election" type crap of this being near the last time that they can "save" America as a white Christian nation. It's not that they are not for democracy, it's that they're only for democracy for white Christians.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Fucking white people. They ruin everything.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LordMortis »

I never thought of it as racist so much as it was Ayn Rand adjacent sophistry. A way to feel like you possess some sort of knowledge and that clarity of thinking that makes you elect. Special. Never mind that it's not thinking. It's indoctrination founded in the demand to control the conversation by controlling language through arbitrary definitions, like controlling the conversation through the threat of guns/violence.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by El Guapo »

LordMortis wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:14 pm I never thought of it as racist so much as it was Ayn Rand adjacent sophistry. A way to feel like you possess some sort of knowledge and that clarity of thinking that makes you elect. Special. Never mind that it's not thinking. It's indoctrination founded in the demand to control the conversation by controlling language through arbitrary definitions, like controlling the conversation through the threat of guns/violence.
Well, that's the elite part of the GOP coalition. The people who just want low upper income taxes and lax regulation, and who distrust democracy because there are more poor people than rich people, so there's a constant threat of the poor people voting themselves money that would come from rich people.

The core of the danger is that Trump has pretty successfully forged a rough coalition between rich people who distrust democracy out of fear of high taxes, and poor people who distrust democracy out of fear of minorities voting.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:23 pm
LordMortis wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:14 pm I never thought of it as racist so much as it was Ayn Rand adjacent sophistry. A way to feel like you possess some sort of knowledge and that clarity of thinking that makes you elect. Special. Never mind that it's not thinking. It's indoctrination founded in the demand to control the conversation by controlling language through arbitrary definitions, like controlling the conversation through the threat of guns/violence.
Well, that's the elite part of the GOP coalition. The people who just want low upper income taxes and lax regulation, and who distrust democracy because there are more poor people than rich people, so there's a constant threat of the poor people voting themselves money that would come from rich people.

The core of the danger is that Trump has pretty successfully forged a rough coalition between rich people who distrust democracy out of fear of high taxes, and poor people who distrust democracy out of fear of minorities voting.
Well put! Scary as hell of course, but that sounds about right.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:23 pm
LordMortis wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:14 pm I never thought of it as racist so much as it was Ayn Rand adjacent sophistry. A way to feel like you possess some sort of knowledge and that clarity of thinking that makes you elect. Special. Never mind that it's not thinking. It's indoctrination founded in the demand to control the conversation by controlling language through arbitrary definitions, like controlling the conversation through the threat of guns/violence.
Well, that's the elite part of the GOP coalition. The people who just want low upper income taxes and lax regulation, and who distrust democracy because there are more poor people than rich people, so there's a constant threat of the poor people voting themselves money that would come from rich people.

The core of the danger is that Trump has pretty successfully forged a rough coalition between rich people who distrust democracy out of fear of high taxes, and poor people who distrust democracy out of fear of minorities voting.
I'd argue that coalition was well established. Trump just made it ok to say the bad things out loud and proud so to speak.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

Absolute cowardice in the PA legislature.

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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The grift continues.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Isgrimnur »

It's apparently limited to three cities:

Sunrise, Florida
Houston
Dallas

Sunrise is on the landward side of Fort Lauderdale.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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So many things can happen between now and December. So. Many. Things.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Zaxxon »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:52 pm It's apparently limited to three cities:

Sunrise, Florida
Houston
Dallas

Sunrise is on the landward side of Fort Lauderdale.

Wait, it's a 'national tour' that hits 3 cities across two states?

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:59 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:23 pm
LordMortis wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:14 pm I never thought of it as racist so much as it was Ayn Rand adjacent sophistry. A way to feel like you possess some sort of knowledge and that clarity of thinking that makes you elect. Special. Never mind that it's not thinking. It's indoctrination founded in the demand to control the conversation by controlling language through arbitrary definitions, like controlling the conversation through the threat of guns/violence.
Well, that's the elite part of the GOP coalition. The people who just want low upper income taxes and lax regulation, and who distrust democracy because there are more poor people than rich people, so there's a constant threat of the poor people voting themselves money that would come from rich people.

The core of the danger is that Trump has pretty successfully forged a rough coalition between rich people who distrust democracy out of fear of high taxes, and poor people who distrust democracy out of fear of minorities voting.
I'd argue that coalition was well established. Trump just made it ok to say the bad things out loud and proud so to speak.
Yeah, I suppose it's not "forged" so much as "supercharged".
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

The brain trust is strong in the GOP.



Meanwhile in Florida - we have Critical Race Theory banned (even though the curriculum he cited didn't specifically call for it). He is following the usual GOP playbook of hiding blatant racism behind 'anti-racism' language.

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Holman »

My Eng 101 classes aren't what anyone would call political, but I'll be going out of my way to include clear-eyed content on these debates next time.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Wait, did we just trick the right into at least paying lip service to critical thinking skills in school?
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