Myanmar (Burma)

[Tareeq]

Military action?

Preparations for such, yes. I'd like Blue Helmets to be there, but I sometimes think the UN can work.

Start here.

[Poleaxe]

Is it your position that we should topple the regime in Burma, which isn't committing genocide but is merely a tyranny?

I wouldn't propose taking control of Burma. I would propose taking action to protect innocents before there is genocide.

Or we could wait and wring some hands together later on if you prefer.

Military action?

Preparations for such, yes. I'd like Blue Helmets to be there, but I sometimes think the UN can work. I've been a liberal hawk for as long (or close to) as I've been posting here, so this shouldn't be a surprise.

If you want UN troops, what does that have to do with America?

[Kraken]

Do we care? I mean, it's about democracy 'n' stuff, but they got no oil or terrorists. Not our problem, right?

The same people who criticize us for "trying to be the world's policeman" are the same people who complain that we're not doing enough about conflicts in various remote regions of the world.

I guess we should only spend taxpayer dollars and American lives resolving conflicts that have no strategic value to us whatsoever?

One could argue that encouraging democratic movements is of strategic value...but I won't. The whole spreading-democracy thing isn't working out so well in Iraq ATM.

Ironrod is evidently of the opinion that we aren't doing enough,

That's not what I wrote or meant. When I wrote "Do we care?", I meant to imply "should we care?", how much should we care, and should we do anything about it.

I thought someone might notice the disconnect with our democratic evangelism in Iraq, which was after all the third justification that Washington offered for the occupation. I wasn't aware of our existing policy toward the junta in Myanmar, or of the underlying realpolitik. From what I'm reading, it's China's problem. We can't and shouldn't do more than cheer from the sidelines.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Military action?

Preparations for such, yes. I'd like Blue Helmets to be there, but I sometimes think the UN can work.

Start here.

Then let China deal with Iran and STFU.

[Grundbegriff]

I've been a liberal hawk for as long (or close to) as I've been posting here, so this shouldn't be a surprise.

Potential bumper sticker: One Bleeding Heart Deserves Another

?;)

[Tareeq]

Then let China deal with Iran and STFU.

You're quite hostile.

I GOTTA RIGHT TO BE HOSTILE MAAAN MY PEOPLE BEIN PERSECUTED!

[The Mad Hatter]

UN military action is an impossibility due to a Chinese veto. Unilateral military action would be lunacy – the Chinese would see it the same way the Americans would if China sent troops into some Central American country to overthrow the government and set up a puppet state.

[The Preacher]

Can't we just lump these guys in with Tibet and throw together a rockin' concert at the Meadowlands to help them? I love me some RATM.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Then let China deal with Iran and STFU.

You're quite hostile.

I GOTTA RIGHT TO BE HOSTILE MAAAN MY PEOPLE BEIN PERSECUTED!

I'm quite tired of being obsessed about oppressive regimes only because they happen to be in a particular sphere of interest... instead of because they are killing people RIGHT NOW.

As long as that is the case, I won't accept a moral case against Iraq, Iran or whomever. It's complete hypocrisy.

[Grundbegriff]

I'm quite tired of being obsessed about oppressive regimes only because they happen to be in a particular sphere of interest... instead of because they are killing people RIGHT NOW.

As long as that is the case, I won't accept a moral case against Iraq, Iran or whomever. It's complete hypocrisy.

This question carries no deep implication, Sparky. I'd just like to understand how you're thinking through the issue as you identify instances of hypocrisy.

Suppose our player has 4 action points, and that foreign intervention by deployment costs 1 action point (stackable).

Suppose further that there are, at any given time, 10 regimes killing people RIGHT NOW.

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

[noxiousdog]

I'm quite tired of being obsessed about oppressive regimes only because they happen to be in a particular sphere of interest... instead of because they are killing people RIGHT NOW.

As long as that is the case, I won't accept a moral case against Iraq, Iran or whomever. It's complete hypocrisy.

This question carries no deep implication, Sparky. I'd just like to understand how you're thinking through the issue as you identify instances of hypocrisy.

Suppose our player has 4 action points, and that foreign intervention by deployment costs 1 action point (stackable).

Suppose further that there are, at any given time, 10 regimes killing people RIGHT NOW.

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

You punt.

[Grundbegriff]

You punt.

What are you calling me?

Seriously-- how so?

[Tareeq]

Then let China deal with Iran and STFU.

You're quite hostile.

I GOTTA RIGHT TO BE HOSTILE MAAAN MY PEOPLE BEIN PERSECUTED!

I'm quite tired of being obsessed about oppressive regimes only because they happen to be in a particular sphere of interest... instead of because they are killing people RIGHT NOW.

As long as that is the case, I won't accept a moral case against Iraq, Iran or whomever. It's complete hypocrisy.

That's not the point. The point is that you ordered me to "shut the fuck up" in response to a polite request for clarification.

You attempt to marginalize me, silencing my voice to make me Other, for the purposes of subordination. Subordination can be so deep that those who are hurt by it are utterly silent. Subordination can create a silence quieter than death. Silence is what you demand instead of speech. The Oppressor never tires of finding ways to limit the expressive rights of the Other. Why is this? It is because the Oppressor finds these expressions inconvenient. The truth of the Oppressor is being called into question by the voices of the Other, so he demands silence. All too often such demands are enforced by violence. And when someone obliterates discourse, erases importance or experience, silences the voice - it is as though it is myself that is obliterated, erased and silenced. Why do you perpetuate such terrorism? You silence. You marginalize. You deny the humanity of the Other and make of it an object. In each of these examples, oppressed and marginalized populations whose voices are stilled seek to become empowered; and as they have become empowered, their own truths emerge into the greater narrative of selfhood. They become actualized to the reality of the silencing denial of self.

I will not be silenced. I will be heard. I will empower and actualize my self through discourse. You will not deny me my place at the table, Mr. Sparkle.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

[Mr. Sparkle]

The point is that you ordered me to "shut the fuck up" in response to a polite request for clarification.

A link to the Chinese Embassy to the UN is not "a polite request for clarification"... so once again: STFU.

[The Mad Hatter]

You’re being silly, Sparkle. You sound like a grade ten student just discovering the wide world of international affairs and wanting to “do good”. The real world does not work that way.

[SuperHiro]

China generally doesn't like to tell other nations what to do. In terms of "hey, could you please stop trying to throw the Motherfucking Hammer on those protesters" statements... China doesn't have a whole lot of cred in that regard.

That's the rub really, IMO. The one nation that can get Burma to cut the bullshit is China, but they aren't in a position to do so effectively.

[Poleaxe]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

What if China has no interest in seeing violence end in Burma? Diplomacy isn't some magic tool that the Bush administration has abandoned. It's a very limited tool that often doesn't work and takes time to implement.

[SuperHiro]

Oh shit, I just read that Burma supplies China with Natural Gas.

Yeah, China isn't going to do shit.

[Mr. Sparkle]

You’re being silly, Sparkle. You sound like a grade ten student just discovering the wide world of international affairs and wanting to “do good”. The real world does not work that way.

I'm sorry I don't listen to enough Cure to think it's hopeless. Maybe one day your reading list can expand beyond Noam Chomsky.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

What if China has no interest in seeing violence end in Burma? Diplomacy isn't some magic tool that the Bush administration has abandoned. It's a very limited tool that often doesn't work and takes time to implement.

You telling me China can't be bribed?

[Grundbegriff]

You attempt to marginalize me, silencing my voice to make me Other, for the purposes of subordination. Subordination can be so deep that those who are hurt by it are utterly silent. Subordination can create a silence quieter than death. Silence is what you demand instead of speech. The Oppressor never tires of finding ways to limit the expressive rights of the Other. Why is this? It is because the Oppressor finds these expressions inconvenient. The truth of the Oppressor is being called into question by the voices of the Other, so he demands silence. All too often such demands are enforced by violence. And when someone obliterates discourse, erases importance or experience, silences the voice - it is as though it is myself that is obliterated, erased and silenced. Why do you perpetuate such terrorism? You silence. You marginalize. You deny the humanity of the Other and make of it an object. In each of these examples, oppressed and marginalized populations whose voices are stilled seek to become empowered; and as they have become empowered, their own truths emerge into the greater narrative of selfhood. They become actualized to the reality of the silencing denial of self.

I will not be silenced. I will be heard. I will empower and actualize my self through discourse. You will not deny me my place at the table, Mr. Sparkle.

You misspelled "hypocrisy", Tareeq.

[Grifman]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

And what if the Chinese don't want to "get on board"?

[SuperHiro]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

What if China has no interest in seeing violence end in Burma? Diplomacy isn't some magic tool that the Bush administration has abandoned. It's a very limited tool that often doesn't work and takes time to implement.

You telling me China can't be bribed?

It's going to have to be one hell of a bribe. China wouldn't even speak out against Sudan.

[Grifman]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

What if China has no interest in seeing violence end in Burma? Diplomacy isn't some magic tool that the Bush administration has abandoned. It's a very limited tool that often doesn't work and takes time to implement.

You telling me China can't be bribed?

Are you telling me we can afford what they would want?

[Grundbegriff]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

What a simple world.

[Grundbegriff]

That's the rub really, IMO. The one nation that can get Burma to cut the bullshit is China, but they aren't in a position to do so effectively.

Indeed, China has an interest in having Buddhists see other Buddhists put in their place by a central authority, since there's a limit to China's own repressive capabilities.

China may not want the "problem" to go away.

[Yankeeman84]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

China does not have to do anything.

The only way the military junta is going to be removed from power is by a unilateral invasion of Burma...period. The UN will not touch the issue unless genocide is involved and in most cases they still will not touch it. The junta could be overthrown very easily but not from inside. The people have a strong voice but have no power.

[Tareeq]

A link to the Chinese Embassy to the UN is not "a polite request for clarification"... so once again: STFU.

And once again I refuse to pick your cotton, Massa Sparkle. The speech of the forgotten matters: whether we in the United States -- and in many other countries as well -- wish this to be the case or not. The US: what is it? A nation built on the soil of conquest, battened on the theft of human beings. Yet it is not only this. The US was also created out of the doctrine of natural rights, whose restrictive application was continually eroded by the struggles of the excluded: first the European "Others," and then the other Others down to our own day. Throughout US history, privileged elites such as yourself have continually shaped and reshaped the categories into which identities -- all identities -- were classified. The struggles at the heart of US society, the cries of voices whose clangor leaps off the pages of today's headlines as it has for centuries, have created the politics and culture of today. A politics and culture in which the dominant narrative of such as you seeks to maintain its privileged position by excluding those whose experience is not and cannot be reconciled within the so-called "melting pot" that is the narrative of power. Think of it: what is the meaning of privilege? The term comes from the Latin, from the slaveholding civilization to which America hearkens back. "Privi" and "legium" are the cornerstones on which your sort has built its narrative house: private law. A law, which you would have those outside the narrative house to be one of nature, in which one discourse, that of the elite, is sanctified and the other, that of the outsider, is unheard.

I will not be your mule, no matter how hard you beat me, Mr. Sparkle. We, the ones you attempt to silence, will be heard. Our voices will be heard, Mr. Sparkle.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

What if China has no interest in seeing violence end in Burma? Diplomacy isn't some magic tool that the Bush administration has abandoned. It's a very limited tool that often doesn't work and takes time to implement.

You telling me China can't be bribed?

Are you telling me we can afford what they would want?

Nobody knows what they want... because it's not on the table. And it won't be, because just as Ironrod said... nobody cares. Even if they start slaughtering monks by the thousands it won't be our problem. Darfur wasn't our problem. Rwanda wasn't our problem. Chechnya wasn't our problem either, but at least some people had the courage to say "fuck that noise" and try and do something.

It's fine if you want to be isolationist, but don't then talk to me about stopping atrocities or (please gag me) punishing past wrongs.

[Grundbegriff]

You telling me China can't be bribed?

Are you telling me we can afford what they would want?

"Australia!"

[Grundbegriff]

And it won't be, because just as Ironrod said... nobody cares.

Only you.

Don't step in the treacle, mmkay, your Holiness?

[Poleaxe]

Which factors would you suggest our player take into account as she decides how best to allocate those 4 action points?

Pool action points with other nations and use that thing previous administrations called "diplomacy". It doesn't have to be the UN... but if China has to be on board for Burma, then get China the fuck on board and do something.

What if China has no interest in seeing violence end in Burma? Diplomacy isn't some magic tool that the Bush administration has abandoned. It's a very limited tool that often doesn't work and takes time to implement.

You telling me China can't be bribed?

Who is going to pay for this massive bribe?

[Mr. Sparkle]

A link to the Chinese Embassy to the UN is not "a polite request for clarification"... so once again: STFU.

And once again I refuse to pick your cotton, Massa Sparkle. The speech of the forgotten matters: whether we in the United States -- and in many other countries as well -- wish this to be the case or not. The US: what is it? A nation built on the soil of conquest, battened on the theft of human beings. Yet it is not only this. The US was also created out of the doctrine of natural rights, whose restrictive application was continually eroded by the struggles of the excluded: first the European "Others," and then the other Others down to our own day. Throughout US history, privileged elites such as yourself have continually shaped and reshaped the categories into which identities -- all identities -- were classified. The struggles at the heart of US society, the cries of voices whose clangor leaps off the pages of today's headlines as it has for centuries, have created the politics and culture of today. A politics and culture in which the dominant narrative of such as you seeks to maintain its privileged position by excluding those whose experience is not and cannot be reconciled within the so-called "melting pot" that is the narrative of power. Think of it: what is the meaning of privilege? The term comes from the Latin, from the slaveholding civilization to which America hearkens back. "Privi" and "legium" are the cornerstones on which your sort has built its narrative house: private law. A law, which you would have those outside the narrative house to be one of nature, in which one discourse, that of the elite, is sanctified and the other, that of the outsider, is unheard.

I will not be your mule, no matter how hard you beat me, Mr. Sparkle. We, the ones you attempt to silence, will be heard. Our voices will be heard, Mr. Sparkle.

Why does it take you so many words to type STFU? I gave back what I got. I'm sure someone here will give you a LOL! if that's what you seek.

If you want to engage in any sort of dialogue, then here I am, and you can start making some points any time you want.

[The Mad Hatter]

You’re being silly, Sparkle. You sound like a grade ten student just discovering the wide world of international affairs and wanting to “do good”. The real world does not work that way.

I'm sorry I don't listen to enough Cure to think it's hopeless. Maybe one day your reading list can expand beyond Noam Chomsky.

Heh, that’s an odd comment considering you’re the one sounding like some wide eyed kid spouting half-understood rhetoric they just picked up in a lecture hall. The simple fact is, Burma is beyond the power of your government to do anything but what it’s already doing. It might be nice to think you can spread goodness anywhere at the point of a M16, but that is not the world we live in. For once, it’s the Bush administration who are the realists.

[Tareeq]

If you want to engage in any sort of dialogue, then here I am

The dialogue of "shut the fuck up?"

[Grundbegriff]

The simple fact is, Burma is beyond the power of your government to do anything but what it’s already doing. It might be nice to think you can spread goodness anywhere at the point of a M16, but that is not the world we live in.

You don't seem to understand. John Lennon promised us that if all the nations would be nice and love one another and just pool all their action points, they'd be able to put out any fire in any forest on any continent, no matter how many were raging, and no matter how ferociously! And, by golly, they'd want to, too!

It's only because they're mean and selfish and greedy that people can't see what I see delivered to me through news media owned and operated by corporate interests of the same sort who purportedly hide, mask, or manipulate information that ought to generate in others the outrage it generates in me. If they'd just be nice, like me, they'd see that the bad soldier people are being mean to the nice monk people.

...so leave Britney ALONE!!!

[Kraken]

Oh shit, I just read that Burma supplies China with Natural Gas.

Yeah, China isn't going to do shit.

China will bend with the wind, as long as it continues to pass gas their way.

[Mr. Sparkle]

It might be nice to think you can spread goodness anywhere at the point of a M16, but that is not the world we live in.

You're right. What could M16's do against roving machete gangs? It's an imponderable. Thank you for setting me straight.

Obviously Burma isn't that bad, and I don't recall calling for airstrikes or paradrops... but to move towards intervention if it is necessary.

[Mr. Sparkle]

If you want to engage in any sort of dialogue, then here I am

The dialogue of "shut the fuck up?"

Uhm, you started it?

Pass me a link like that with no commentary and you will get the same response every time.

I know you like to think you are a walking Kōan, but I'd prefer being treated as a peer and not an errant disciple.