The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

I don't think it makes much sense for Bernie to pick Warren as VP; their policies and their supporters overlap too much already. I think someone like Abrams would be a good choice for Bernie. Or maybe Andrew Gillum. Someone young who can appeal to wide swathes of the party and shore up some support in Southern states.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Drazzil »

Kraken wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:18 am
Zarathud wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:05 am Bernie would not behave as VP. Not sure who Bernie would pick but he would be smart to ask Warren if she can’t get restarted.
There is too much bad blood between them now, and neither would play second fiddle for the other. Besides, they each need a much younger VP, preferably a minority.
Its pretty clear to me now that Warren would be a great VP. Bernie is getting old and has health issues. I cant think of a better running mate for VP then Bernie. Although for my money AoC would work too.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Holman »

Drazzil wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:42 pm
Kraken wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:18 am
Zarathud wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:05 am Bernie would not behave as VP. Not sure who Bernie would pick but he would be smart to ask Warren if she can’t get restarted.
There is too much bad blood between them now, and neither would play second fiddle for the other. Besides, they each need a much younger VP, preferably a minority.
Its pretty clear to me now that Warren would be a great VP. Bernie is getting old and has health issues. I cant think of a better running mate for VP then Bernie. Although for my money AoC would work too.
As already stated, Bernie needs someone different from himself on the ticket. Stacey Abrams (black, female, young, Southern, center-left) is the obvious choice.

AOC would be doubling down on everything that scares Americans about Bernie.

A Sanders-Warren ticket would also be trouble because both Vermont and Massachusetts have Republican governors, and they would appoint two GOP senators to fill the vacancies. We don't have that wiggle room.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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AOC isn't eligible until 2024. Then I would double down.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken »

Holman wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:01 pm A Sanders-Warren ticket would also be trouble because both Vermont and Massachusetts have Republican governors, and they would appoint two GOP senators to fill the vacancies. We don't have that wiggle room.
That ticket's a nonstarter for multiple reasons, but I wonder if Baker would really appoint a Republican to replace Warren. Despite the (R) after his name, he stays far away from Trump and all of his party's shenanigans. If he *did* pick a R, he'd certainly lose his job in the next election. It's an interesting what-if that hadn't occurred to me before. Maybe we'll still find out when Warren moves into the WH. :)
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Drazzil »

Holman wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:01 pm
Drazzil wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:42 pm
Kraken wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:18 am
Zarathud wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:05 am Bernie would not behave as VP. Not sure who Bernie would pick but he would be smart to ask Warren if she can’t get restarted.
There is too much bad blood between them now, and neither would play second fiddle for the other. Besides, they each need a much younger VP, preferably a minority.
Its pretty clear to me now that Warren would be a great VP. Bernie is getting old and has health issues. I cant think of a better running mate for VP then Bernie. Although for my money AoC would work too.
As already stated, Bernie needs someone different from himself on the ticket. Stacey Abrams (black, female, young, Southern, center-left) is the obvious choice.

AOC would be doubling down on everything that scares Americans about Bernie.

A Sanders-Warren ticket would also be trouble because both Vermont and Massachusetts have Republican governors, and they would appoint two GOP senators to fill the vacancies. We don't have that wiggle room.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Formix »

I'm thinking Warren / Booker.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken »

That's a ticket I'd like to see. Securing a high-profile running mate before the primaries are over could do good things for her campaign. Unfortunately, signing on with the #3 or #4 candidate isn't a smart career move.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Drazzil »

Kraken wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:29 pm That's a ticket I'd like to see. Securing a high-profile running mate before the primaries are over could do good things for her campaign. Unfortunately, signing on with the #3 or #4 candidate isn't a smart career move.
I really like Warren a lot. I sent 45% of my small amount donations to Warren.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken »

The Boston Globe endorses Warren...which is not the foregone conclusion you might think; she's not the runaway favorite in her home state. Many voters resent her for spending two years of her Senate term running for president while emphasizing her Oklahoma roots. And yes, a lot of Massholes are feeling the Bern from neighboring VT.

While they were at it, they also endorsed Bill Weld for the R nomination, which is adorable; their reasoning is solid, but Weld has no better chance of beating Trump here than anywhere else, even though our former guv at least enjoys name recognition.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken »

Warren campaign texted me to GOTV tonight. After passing a couple of replies back and forth, I politely asked "Suzanne" not to text me any more, and she complied. The latest poll shows Sanders leading by 2% in MA -- within the margin of error, but not reassuring.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by AWS260 »

Warren really grew on me over the past year or so. She's the only candidate that I've donated to this primary season. I think she's remarkable, and I'm sad that she never got any momentum.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Holman »

It's too bad. I'm firmly convinced that she was the best potential president of the whole field. In my house we put a lot of work into organizing for her in Philadelphia.

It'll be interesting to see how this tilts the race. I'll be surprised if more than a very slight majority of her support goes to Sanders.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, I've said it elsewhere, I think she was the best of the last round of candidates. She's in a terrible position now too. Endorsing either Biden or Sanders is likely going to cause issues and if she doesn't endorse one of them that too will likely cause her to be hounded. I honestly don't know what the best play is here, but if you're telling me I have to choose between Biden and Sanders, Biden it is.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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This makes my vote on 3/17 a little bit simpler.

I certainly didn't agree with all of her positions, but I did think she was probably the best candidate in the field.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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Sorry to see her go. While I'm ideologically closer to the supposedly "moderate" Biden, I think that, ideology aside (eg, competence, etc), she would have been the better President.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by LordMortis »

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:18 pm This makes my vote on 3/17 a little bit simpler.

I certainly didn't agree with all of her positions, but I did think she was probably the best candidate in the field.
It's weird when you post things that are similar to the way I see the world.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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LordMortis wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:33 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:18 pm This makes my vote on 3/17 a little bit simpler.

I certainly didn't agree with all of her positions, but I did think she was probably the best candidate in the field.
It's weird when you post things that are similar to the way I see the world.
Fortunately it doesn't happen very often.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken »

Bummer. She was the smartest, most organized, best-spoken, and possibly toughest person in the lineup, and best-qualified to take out Trump.

Most likely she'll withhold her endorsement until the nominee is nommed, as she did in '16.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:49 pm and best-qualified to take out Trump.
I don't know if that is the case. (it might be) but she was demonstrably the best representative of someone to say "Oh bullshit. Not only oh bullshit, but here's why, now shut the fuck up and sit down." The thing is, things that are real but defy the whims of Trump do not phase him and this resonates with those that support him. Even as the Trump led GOP try again and again to use "entitlement" funding as the source of revenue for corporate tax cuts, the democrats are blame, when they are the reason the cuts fail. Then the blame will go directly to the illegal immigrants who are somehow both taking our high paying jobs without registering and paying taxes while not doing anything but collecting the entitlements paid for by hard working Americans and to the democrats for letting this happen. She can call bullshit with the facts and figures off the top of her head like nobodies business, wherein she will change nearly no-one's vote and apparently not excite the youth (which is what truly hurts)
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:49 pm Bummer. She was the smartest, most organized, best-spoken, and possibly toughest person in the lineup, and best-qualified to take out Trump.

Most likely she'll withhold her endorsement until the nominee is nommed, as she did in '16.
I think she's in a tricky spot re: her endorsement, especially since she's now so closely tied to Bernie (probably too closely, really). I don't think she'll endorse Biden (at least not unless and until he's the nominee) - she'd look too weak and craven. She could withhold it, but everyone's going to assume that she's for Bernie, and so she'd look a little cowardly and waffly if she did that.

Kind of seems like her best play is to endorse Sanders. I don't think that the Biden camp would hold it against her much, it'd keep her from losing her left base. I think that's the way to go.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by milo »

I don't think her supporters lean that heavily towards Bernie as a second choice, and his supporters won't welcome her endorsement anyway. I don't envy her position, but I trust her to make the best choice for the country in the end.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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milo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:23 pm his supporters won't welcome her endorsement anyway.
To listen to them in the last few months, I think you're right, which is foreign to me. I really thought they were occupying the same space it just that she's not living in as much of a fantasy landscape. Warren is really perceived as part of the establishment and fully corrupted. I'm still taken aback at my own ignorance on such things.

The crazy thing, is they don't her endorsement or Bloomberg's money or Biden's baggage but they insist they are a righteous majority onto themselves (ignoring that Sanders has to Co-opt the democratic party and then demand they empower him as if he is the clear majority when he is clearly... not)

If Sanders is nominated and if Sanders wins, I'm already feeling that proclamation of destiny and the mandate of the will of the people, where I will be sitting in a chair feeling like my votes was enforces that claim, when my mandate was referendum on the GOP, not Sanders nebulous platform.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:18 pm This makes my vote on 3/17 a little bit simpler.

I certainly didn't agree with all of her positions, but I did think she was probably the best candidate in the field.
I just got my mail in ballot. What is this "pick 7 delegates" business? Have never done a Dem primary.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken »

LordMortis wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:42 pm
milo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:23 pm his supporters won't welcome her endorsement anyway.
To listen to them in the last few months, I think you're right, which is foreign to me. I really thought they were occupying the same space it just that she's not living in as much of a fantasy landscape. Warren is really perceived as part of the establishment and fully corrupted. I'm still taken aback at my own ignorance on such things.
I guess she failed the Sanders purity test for...um...tapping into old campaign funds that were tainted with big donors? Something like that. She and Bernie believed most of the same things and held most of the same positions, except his were "democratic socialism" and hers were "managed capitalism." Her branding has wider appeal, but the faithful hate the "C" word. She made two tactical mistakes: First, backing away from M4A after her financing plans drew fire from every direction; and second, spending a month floating above the fray to position herself as the unity candidate. She's a real fighter, and she stopped doing that just as everybody else took the gloves off.

Her support is roughly 50/50 between moderates and progressives, so her endorsement should help/hurt Biden and Sanders about equally, which makes it not-so-valuable.

Oh well...she goes back to being my Senator now, so yay consolation prize!
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by LordMortis »

Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:41 pm
LordMortis wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:42 pm
milo wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:23 pm his supporters won't welcome her endorsement anyway.
To listen to them in the last few months, I think you're right, which is foreign to me. I really thought they were occupying the same space it just that she's not living in as much of a fantasy landscape. Warren is really perceived as part of the establishment and fully corrupted. I'm still taken aback at my own ignorance on such things.
I guess she failed the Sanders purity test for...um...tapping into old campaign funds that were tainted with big donors? Something like that. She and Bernie believed most of the same things and held most of the same positions, except his were "democratic socialism" and hers were "managed capitalism." Her branding has wider appeal, but the faithful hate the "C" word. She made two tactical mistakes: First, backing away from M4A after her financing plans drew fire from every direction; and second, spending a month floating above the fray to position herself as the unity candidate. She's a real fighter, and she stopped doing that just as everybody else took the gloves off.

Her support is roughly 50/50 between moderates and progressives, so her endorsement should help/hurt Biden and Sanders about equally, which makes it not-so-valuable.

Oh well...she goes back to being my Senator now, so yay consolation prize!
I think she's a much better legislator than she would make as a president anyway. I'm just not think "Yeah Biden!" or "Yeah Sanders!" as corollary to that thought. I want my Beto, Booker, or Merkley. :(
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:01 pm

I just got my mail in ballot. What is this "pick 7 delegates" business? Have never done a Dem primary.
I'm not sure, but if I understand it correctly, they are the ones who are actually voting, you are just giving a recommendation. Like the electoral college.
Are there more names than seats?
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:01 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:18 pm This makes my vote on 3/17 a little bit simpler.

I certainly didn't agree with all of her positions, but I did think she was probably the best candidate in the field.
I just got my mail in ballot. What is this "pick 7 delegates" business? Have never done a Dem primary.
I've never done a democratic primary either, so I'll probably be as puzzled as you are.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:39 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:01 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:18 pm This makes my vote on 3/17 a little bit simpler.

I certainly didn't agree with all of her positions, but I did think she was probably the best candidate in the field.
I just got my mail in ballot. What is this "pick 7 delegates" business? Have never done a Dem primary.
I've never done a democratic primary either, so I'll probably be as puzzled as you are.
In Virginia, I went to the polling place, got a ballot with all the Democratic nominees, filled in the oval next to my preferred choice, and put the ballot in the machine. Wasn't *that* difficult. But maybe Illinois is convoluted where Virginia isn't.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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In SC, we got a blank piece of paper, inserted it into the computer, pressed the button next to our preferred candidate. The result was printed on the paper. We then took the paper to a scanner where it was scanned, counted, and then boxed.

This was much better than the old, paperless method (imo).
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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Archinerd wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:52 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:01 pm

I just got my mail in ballot. What is this "pick 7 delegates" business? Have never done a Dem primary.
I'm not sure, but if I understand it correctly, they are the ones who are actually voting, you are just giving a recommendation. Like the electoral college.
Are there more names than seats?
There are 40 and instructions say "pick no more than 7".

It's a separate item from the presidential candidate but each delegate has a candidate next to their name.


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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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I'd likely only vote in the races on the left. The one on the right is ridiculous.
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The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Zarathud »

LawBeefaroni wrote: I just got my mail in ballot. What is this "pick 7 delegates" business? Have never done a Dem primary.
Technically the vote is for delegates not candidates and you can split your vote — especially if you like one politician delegate who is not behind your favored candidate for office. It also forces a non-establishment candidate to have 7 surrogates rather than 1. And establishment delegates to pick sides.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:16 pm
Archinerd wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:52 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:01 pm

I just got my mail in ballot. What is this "pick 7 delegates" business? Have never done a Dem primary.
I'm not sure, but if I understand it correctly, they are the ones who are actually voting, you are just giving a recommendation. Like the electoral college.
Are there more names than seats?
There are 40 and instructions say "pick no more than 7".

It's a separate item from the presidential candidate but each delegate has a candidate next to their name.
Ahh yes, I remember now.
I just pick the ones that match the Presidential Candidate - the name in parenthesis indicates which candidate the delegate will cast their vote for.

And as Zarathud pointed out, it gives you the option of splitting your vote.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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This is pretty amazing. (It's Warren backstage on SNL)

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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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I love that Kate McKinnon is starting to crack up right at the end.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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Kraken wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:49 pm Bummer. She was the smartest, most organized, best-spoken, and possibly toughest person in the lineup, and best-qualified to take out Trump.
I hate to slap someone when they are already down, but I have to question some of this, which I've seen written about her time and again. Smartest? She started with a great platform of having a plan for everything, with a cornerstone plan being Medicare for All. She criticized her opponents' plans for not having depth (which is fair if you have proof) - yet the first time she herself was confronted on explaining how she was going to pay for it, she completely stumbled, then backtracked on M4A, and to me it felt like her campaign was never the same again. Because then she started hardcore issuing her purity tests on campaign money, which as most people know one-by-one she either reneged or completely reversed on. This after those tests essentially knocked out some of the other candidates who tried to meet them. I have to say from a strategic viewpoint that was pretty bold (and effective), but dangerous because of the inherent hypocrisy. I suspect to some extent it caught up with her, though I imagine the majority of her supporters were willing to overlook it.

I saw people online blaming things on her being female or having bad advisers. Sorry, but I don't buy any of that. If you're the candidate, the buck ultimately stops with you. She made some poor choices and took some ill-advised risks, attacking when she probably could have just been presenting/showing why her plans were the best. If they really were that good, they should stand on their own and not require negative character attacks on others. She got vetted in what I'd say was a much milder way than she vetted others, but apparently couldn't handle the heat.
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

Post by Kraken »

I didn't say she was the most politically astute; by "smartest", I mean in terms of IQ. She was a perfect candidate in every way except convincing people to actually vote for her...which is kind of a big drawback.

IMO, she made two tactical errors: the M4A backpedal that you already mentioned, and spending a month trying not to alienate progressives OR moderates just as everyone else took off their gloves and started mixing it up. Instead of brawling with them, which she's very good at doing, she floated above the fray and disappeared, and only came back to take out Bloomberg -- which awed everybody. By then, it was too late to affect VA or NV, and so she brought nothing into Super Tuesday.

She would have made a fine president, but her political instincts weren't good enough to get her there. I would have LOVED to watch her give Trump the Bloomberg treatment. :violence-instagib:
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Re: The Elizabeth Warren Sideshow

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Kraken wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:14 pm I didn't say she was the most politically astute; by "smartest", I mean in terms of IQ. She was a perfect candidate in every way except convincing people to actually vote for her...which is kind of a big drawback.

IMO, she made two tactical errors: the M4A backpedal that you already mentioned, and spending a month trying not to alienate progressives OR moderates just as everyone else took off their gloves and started mixing it up. Instead of brawling with them, which she's very good at doing, she floated above the fray and disappeared, and only came back to take out Bloomberg -- which awed everybody. By then, it was too late to affect VA or NV, and so she brought nothing into Super Tuesday.

She would have made a fine president, but her political instincts weren't good enough to get her there. I would have LOVED to watch her give Trump the Bloomberg treatment. :violence-instagib:
Definitely agree with you there!!! I honestly thought early on she was the one to watch, so I have to say I was kind of disappointed when it didn't seem like she had good strategic instincts. Maybe that can be blamed on her advisers.
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