The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41243
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote:
El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:51 am
malchior wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:46 pm
Formix wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:13 am It seems like it's just okay to ignore mandates. I was in a local town yesterday that is almost as popular with the tourists as Asheville, and I saw, at best, 10% of the folks wearing masks. And when I say wearing them, I don't mean they had them around their necks or off their nose, I mean there was no mask anywhere in sight. Literally, hundreds of people walking around without masks, even though we still have a mask mandate. If I didn't have kids, I'd say that I welcome our upcoming extinction event, because as a species, we're just too selfish and stupid to survive.
It is interesting because I don't think this is a 'species' problem. I see it as American exceptionalism was a run of good luck especially in regards to geography and natural resources, but the system was flawed from the beginning. I think we're at a point where this Lockean experiment in nearly absolute 'human rights' has reached an inflection point where we can start the debate whether other governmental philosophies are more scalable and lead to more humane outcomes. It sounds a bit crazy but relying on individuals to act cooperatively without coercive government is starting to look like it delivers dismal results even compared to some 'so-called' oppressive regimes.

What is more oppressive? Not having nearly unlimited access to guns or worrying that your spouse will get mad one day and blow your head off or that you or loved ones might get mowed down by a brony misanthrope at work or a supermarket because they can't get laid. Or less extremely, being 'forced' to wear a mask for the 30 minutes you go to a store is somehow more oppressive than giving someone a deadly disease that'll sideline them for weeks, months, or years.
That sounds crazy because it is. Lots of democratic countries have responded well to COVID - e.g., Australia, South Korea, Japan, etc. There is a degree to which America is more focused on individual rights than a lot of other countries, which can I think be a hindrance to effective responses on collective issues, but it's surmountable and a matter of degree rather than kind. The bigger issue for us is that our archaic political and constitutional structure empowers our crazy reactionaries disproportionately.
That wasn't anti-democracy. More so just comparing us to other systems. For example, many here consider Britain's libel and loser pay's system and Germany's hate speech laws as less free/more oppressive. At the more extreme end China's totalitarian capitalism experiment obviously has many shortfalls but is smoking us in several areas.

I was trying to say that our founder's believed they were intellectual descendants of Locke and set up that archaic structure accordingly. They thought that providing the most individual freedom possible would be stable. It was 'distorted' since then and it was bullshit when you think about non-white, non-female participation but at the core it was an experiment in extreme freedom. And I've increasingly been convinced that the United States experiment in mostly unfettered natural "rights of man" has not scaled and isn't tenable as the population increased.

For example, back to how most Democracies don't allow hate speech. We somehow think that better ideas will win out but its arguable that our country is poisoned with white supremacy right now - especially throughout important functions like the police. Or that recently we've evolved to easy access to powerful guns for pretty much everyone and that has led to near daily murder sprees. And when I look at other democracies that aren't as "free" as ours I wonder if they've pretty much proved that the American concept of governance is flawed all the way down.

Edit: Back on topic, even now we recently had SCOTUS say that COVID restrictions weren't constitutional if they possibly infringed on religious activity even when other secular activities are held to the same standard. We keep inventing new ways to endanger the population and somehow think that America is exceptional. I'm at the point where like others I want to leave because I see this as a lost cause. Our bedrock principles are killing us and we can't even talk about fixing issues. In the past this mostly worked out because we weren't challenged by outside forces that could beat us. Now that we are it's beginning to unwind on us now. And it is going to be ugly.
Ah, I see. Still, I think the core issue isn't so much with American political philosophy or with Americans as much as it is with how our political structures distort popular will. If we had a simple majority rules structure, Clinton would have taken office in 2017 and we would have a 5-4 or 6-3 liberal majority that would be upholding COVID measures instead of substituting their judgment. At the state level we would have more governments acting with accountability to the public instead of the GOP base.

Not that there are no issues with American political philosophy, but I don't think it's the core problem.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Holman »

Here’s the kind of idiocy that holds us back:

Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by malchior »

Yeah - I think her journey into full nutty anti-vax conspiracy theory started years ago but she has finally found an audience ready for her message. Sigh.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by malchior »

More

User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Naomi Wolf is a known actor and a real problem. I am hoping she loses her ability to fire-hose nonsense into the ether real soon.

In related news, this is...not good:
A group trying to repeal an emergency powers law that Gov. Gretchen Whitmer used for months to issue coronavirus restrictions cleared a key hurdle Monday when the Michigan elections bureau said it collected enough petitions.

Unlock Michigan, which has ties to Republicans, submitted an estimated 460,358 valid signatures, more than the roughly 340,000 needed, according to a staff report. If the bipartisan Board of State Canvassers agrees with the recommendation to certify the initiative at a Thursday meeting, the GOP-led Legislature will likely pass the measure rather than let it go to a public vote in 2022. The Democratic governor could not veto it.

The 1945 law underpinned Whitmer’s far-reaching COVID-19 orders for nearly seven months. Republican lawmakers sued, and a divided Michigan Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional in October. But her opponents say the law should be permanently taken off the books because a future court could rule differently.
This speaks to what I was saying in the Marathon thread. While we're still dealing with COVID right now, the bigger-picture issues surrounding well-established public health law all over the U.S. right now is unreal. While we should be focused on the immediate, there's real concern that when the next public health crisis happens ( and don't kids yourselves, it's happening), various states and communities nationwide will have intentionally knee-capped themselves from the get-go and it will snowball quickly. And that doesn't even begin to address how this impacts the field overall, in terms of staffing and planning. Day-to-day operations might be significantly affected as well.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Defiant »

Most Americans support the pause in distribution of the Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine, and so far there's no evidence that it's leading to broader vaccine hesitancy, according to the latest installment of the Axios/Ipsos Coronavirus Index.

https://www.axios.com/axios-ipsos-poll- ... a3480.html
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43487
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Blackhawk »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:42 am there's real concern that when the next public health crisis happens ( and don't kids yourselves, it's happening), various states and communities nationwide will have intentionally knee-capped themselves from the get-go and it will snowball quickly.
That's what's really stood out to me. By removing all of the emergency powers, state's have removed the ability to address emergencies. In many cases it doesn't even have to be public health emergencies. Natural disaster response could be crippled by some of this as well.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zaxxon »

Blackhawk wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:08 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:42 am there's real concern that when the next public health crisis happens ( and don't kids yourselves, it's happening), various states and communities nationwide will have intentionally knee-capped themselves from the get-go and it will snowball quickly.
That's what's really stood out to me. By removing all of the emergency powers, state's have removed the ability to address emergencies. In many cases it doesn't even have to be public health emergencies. Natural disaster response could be crippled by some of this as well.
But 'addressing emergencies' means trampling on Mah Rights™, so...
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55315
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:14 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:08 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:42 am there's real concern that when the next public health crisis happens ( and don't kids yourselves, it's happening), various states and communities nationwide will have intentionally knee-capped themselves from the get-go and it will snowball quickly.
That's what's really stood out to me. By removing all of the emergency powers, state's have removed the ability to address emergencies. In many cases it doesn't even have to be public health emergencies. Natural disaster response could be crippled by some of this as well.
But 'addressing emergencies' means trampling on Mah Rights™, so...
Until they need to be airlifted out of a flood plain or housed in a FEMA paid-for hotel when a tornado wipes the neighborhood. Then it's "this is my right as a citizen!!!"


Helping/protecting others: no, Mah Rights™

Helping/protecting self: yes, please, that's the role of government.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Lorini »

Every time I think of cashing out my house and living elsewhere, these kinds of posts remind me why I won't be doing that.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Isgrimnur »

People suck the world over. There are just different concentrations.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Lorini »

Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:28 pm People suck the world over. There are just different concentrations.
Not so much here in California and especially here in LA county. We just don't have the issues that I see in the South and the Midwest. LA is going to start universal income for poor people in the city. That's not happening in Texas or Alabama. We have some little hot spots on masks, but most people want the mask requirement to stay, as surveys have shown. We do share a racist horrible police force, both in the city and county of LA, that's certain, but other than that, I just don't see (and I read the news daily) the issues here that I see elsewhere.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
gbasden
Posts: 7664
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:57 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by gbasden »

Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:28 pm People suck the world over. There are just different concentrations.
There definitely seem to be wide variances in the suck concentration. I agree with what Lorini said. To go a step further, if I could move to New Zealand I would in a heartbeat simply because they have such a low concentration of suck. In general, I'd much rather live someplace where community, empathy and interdependence are seen as important rather than a Randian me first, everyone else is unimportant worldview.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Isgrimnur »

There are high and low pressure areas of suck, and they do tend to move about over time. I hear that the level of suck in Germany has decreased radically over the past century or so.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Holman »

Lorini wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:55 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:28 pm People suck the world over. There are just different concentrations.
Not so much here in California and especially here in LA county. We just don't have the issues that I see in the South and the Midwest. LA is going to start universal income for poor people in the city. That's not happening in Texas or Alabama. We have some little hot spots on masks, but most people want the mask requirement to stay, as surveys have shown. We do share a racist horrible police force, both in the city and county of LA, that's certain, but other than that, I just don't see (and I read the news daily) the issues here that I see elsewhere.
My sister is in California and thinking of moving back to Alabama to live with my aging mother. That might be a good thing for both, but I keep reminding sis that she should keep the CA house (it's paid for) because there might come a time when AL truly falls to the Dark Side.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Kraken »

Lorini wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:55 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:28 pm People suck the world over. There are just different concentrations.
Not so much here in California and especially here in LA county. We just don't have the issues that I see in the South and the Midwest. LA is going to start universal income for poor people in the city. That's not happening in Texas or Alabama. We have some little hot spots on masks, but most people want the mask requirement to stay, as surveys have shown. We do share a racist horrible police force, both in the city and county of LA, that's certain, but other than that, I just don't see (and I read the news daily) the issues here that I see elsewhere.
One of my Michigan friends, who's often reflexively defensive of her state, maintains that lowlifes are everywhere and I just don't see them. While that's true to a degree, rural Massholes don't run around the backwoods with armor and assault weapons, and if they tried to march on the State House they would get a very different reception than the Michigan militias did. Same thing applies to public health. Massholes are as tired of pandemic mitigation as anyone else, even to the point of getting sloppy about it, but we aren't trying to strip our government of its powers to keep people safe.

Maybe that's a concentration thing like Isg was talking about. Crazy trumpers do exist here, and if they were in the majority, or even a much larger minority, they might be able to degrade civilization here, too. I'd like to think that they wouldn't suck quite as hard because we don't have a strong gun culture and we're the most-educated state in the Union, but maybe I'm deluded.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41243
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

Kraken wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:38 pm
Lorini wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:55 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:28 pm People suck the world over. There are just different concentrations.
Not so much here in California and especially here in LA county. We just don't have the issues that I see in the South and the Midwest. LA is going to start universal income for poor people in the city. That's not happening in Texas or Alabama. We have some little hot spots on masks, but most people want the mask requirement to stay, as surveys have shown. We do share a racist horrible police force, both in the city and county of LA, that's certain, but other than that, I just don't see (and I read the news daily) the issues here that I see elsewhere.
One of my Michigan friends, who's often reflexively defensive of her state, maintains that lowlifes are everywhere and I just don't see them. While that's true to a degree, rural Massholes don't run around the backwoods with armor and assault weapons, and if they tried to march on the State House they would get a very different reception than the Michigan militias did. Same thing applies to public health. Massholes are as tired of pandemic mitigation as anyone else, even to the point of getting sloppy about it, but we aren't trying to strip our government of its powers to keep people safe.

Maybe that's a concentration thing like Isg was talking about. Crazy trumpers do exist here, and if they were in the majority, or even a much larger minority, they might be able to degrade civilization here, too. I'd like to think that they wouldn't suck quite as hard because we don't have a strong gun culture and we're the most-educated state in the Union, but maybe I'm deluded.
Michigan also has a bad gerrymandering problem. If the legislature was reflective of the popular will, things would look very different.

Though they also have more Republicans in general.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Kraken »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:46 pm
Kraken wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:38 pm
Lorini wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:55 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:28 pm People suck the world over. There are just different concentrations.
Not so much here in California and especially here in LA county. We just don't have the issues that I see in the South and the Midwest. LA is going to start universal income for poor people in the city. That's not happening in Texas or Alabama. We have some little hot spots on masks, but most people want the mask requirement to stay, as surveys have shown. We do share a racist horrible police force, both in the city and county of LA, that's certain, but other than that, I just don't see (and I read the news daily) the issues here that I see elsewhere.
One of my Michigan friends, who's often reflexively defensive of her state, maintains that lowlifes are everywhere and I just don't see them. While that's true to a degree, rural Massholes don't run around the backwoods with armor and assault weapons, and if they tried to march on the State House they would get a very different reception than the Michigan militias did. Same thing applies to public health. Massholes are as tired of pandemic mitigation as anyone else, even to the point of getting sloppy about it, but we aren't trying to strip our government of its powers to keep people safe.

Maybe that's a concentration thing like Isg was talking about. Crazy trumpers do exist here, and if they were in the majority, or even a much larger minority, they might be able to degrade civilization here, too. I'd like to think that they wouldn't suck quite as hard because we don't have a strong gun culture and we're the most-educated state in the Union, but maybe I'm deluded.
Michigan also has a bad gerrymandering problem. If the legislature was reflective of the popular will, things would look very different.

Though they also have more Republicans in general.
Just to clarify my previous post, I don't mean to pick on MI. I grew up there and still have friends and family there. I get exasperated when I see them leading the country in new covid infections and doing the opposite of what they should do about it because freedumb.
User avatar
Formix
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Formix »

gbasden wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:29 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:28 pm People suck the world over. There are just different concentrations.
There definitely seem to be wide variances in the suck concentration. I agree with what Lorini said. To go a step further, if I could move to New Zealand I would in a heartbeat simply because they have such a low concentration of suck. In general, I'd much rather live someplace where community, empathy and interdependence are seen as important rather than a Randian me first, everyone else is unimportant worldview.
I've been looking to move to NZ for over a year now. Finding a job seems to be the holdup. Their payscale is a little lower than I'd like for what I can find. Oh, and also leaving everyone and everything I know behind, which some days seems like a pro, and some days a con.
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70097
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

Kraken wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:08 am Just to clarify my previous post, I don't mean to pick on MI. I grew up there and still have friends and family there. I get exasperated when I see them leading the country in new covid infections and doing the opposite of what they should do about it because freedumb.
You should. We're a mess. It reflects in our infection rates and death toll. And while the nuts on the right are the worst and their influence is probably the weightiest contributor. It's not just them. I had to go to the optometrist last night. On the surface, you know, a medical facility. The place was lousy with below the nose mask wearers and it is not in right wing area.

I don't things outside of the rustbelt but it's bad here and hard to digest.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Kraken »

LordMortis wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:29 am
Kraken wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:08 am Just to clarify my previous post, I don't mean to pick on MI. I grew up there and still have friends and family there. I get exasperated when I see them leading the country in new covid infections and doing the opposite of what they should do about it because freedumb.
You should. We're a mess. It reflects in our infection rates and death toll. And while the nuts on the right are the worst and their influence is probably the weightiest contributor. It's not just them. I had to go to the optometrist last night. On the surface, you know, a medical facility. The place was lousy with below the nose mask wearers and it is not in right wing area.

I don't things outside of the rustbelt but it's bad here and hard to digest.
I occasionally get glimpses from my niece, a nurse's aid at Mercy in Muskegon. She doesn't go into much detail, but what she does share is heartbreaking.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Kraken wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:40 am I occasionally get glimpses from my niece, a nurse's aid at Mercy in Muskegon. She doesn't go into much detail, but what she does share is heartbreaking.
Maybe not politics, mask wearing or the vaccination process, but I did see this statistic this morning:


NJ's death rate from COVID-19 is 2nd highest in the US, behind only Michigan, Persichilli said. 1 in 500 NJ residents has died from the disease. 35% of deaths are LTC residents, 35% are people of color, Latino men (from theirs 30s-60s) are 3x more likely to die than white men.
Politically and demographically, I'm guessing Jerz and Michigan are quite different (along with density).
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by malchior »

I don't find that too surprising. We knew or maybe more accurately had a lot of indications that LTC was poorly supervised pre-COVID. That it burned through those settings is well what everyone dealt with unfortunately. The same thing goes for Latino men. I talked about it at the time but the soap and consumer products manufacturing facility my wife works at was running like a WW2 factory in the spring. All the men were out sick with COVID and the women were filling in. Family members were dying in incredible numbers and the owner was pocketing record profits and PPP loans he absolutely didn't need. I don't know if that's an outlier but somehow I doubt it. Density worked against us but I have a strong gut feeling the state IMO didn't do enough to protect vulnerable workers and residents of LTC facilities (though the latter is harder to fault since it was so early and so challenging).
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55315
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:11 am
Kraken wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:40 am I occasionally get glimpses from my niece, a nurse's aid at Mercy in Muskegon. She doesn't go into much detail, but what she does share is heartbreaking.
Maybe not politics, mask wearing or the vaccination process, but I did see this statistic this morning:


NJ's death rate from COVID-19 is 2nd highest in the US, behind only Michigan, Persichilli said. 1 in 500 NJ residents has died from the disease. 35% of deaths are LTC residents, 35% are people of color, Latino men (from theirs 30s-60s) are 3x more likely to die than white men.
Politically and demographically, I'm guessing Jerz and Michigan are quite different (along with density).
I get what they're saying but is being Latino really a factor outside of socioeconomic strata? Latinos aren't more likely to die, Latinos living/working in certain areas with higher poverty level are more likely to die. Why pussyfoot around the inequities? I highly doubt it is a genetic thing.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
hitbyambulance
Posts: 10233
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:51 am
Location: Map Ref 47.6°N 122.35°W
Contact:

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by hitbyambulance »

https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2021/04/21/covid19-vaccines-global-donations-america/ wrote:The poll asked whether Americans agreed or disagreed with three notions: start donating vaccines immediately, start donating vaccines once everyone in the U.S. has been vaccinated, or skip donations altogether.

Not surprisingly, there are diverging views among different slices of those polled. More members of Gen Z and millennials — 59% and 65%, respectively — than middle-aged or older Americans believe the U.S. government should start to immediately donate Covid-19 vaccines to other countries. And 63% of Democrats support immediate donations, compared with just 43% of Republicans.

Meanwhile, 48% of those surveyed believe the U.S. government should not donate vaccines to other countries at all, and keep a stockpile instead. Many more Republicans — 58% to be exact — agreed with this position, compared with 44% of Democrats. This revealed something of a dichotomy among Republicans, given that 52% of Republicans polled indicated they are hesitant to get vaccinated or do not plan to do so.

“Republicans appear a little bit torn,” said Jekielek. “They’ve expressed skepticism and hesitancy toward vaccines, but on the other hand, some acknowledged there is a value to having a stockpile. And that sentiment fits in with the idea that, first and foremost, many people are saying we should take care of the U.S. first.”
hilarious. i wonder how many have the thought process of 'I'm not going to get it, and so shouldn't anyone else!'
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55315
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

hitbyambulance wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:46 pm
https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2021/04/21/covid19-vaccines-global-donations-america/ wrote:The poll asked whether Americans agreed or disagreed with three notions: start donating vaccines immediately, start donating vaccines once everyone in the U.S. has been vaccinated, or skip donations altogether.

Not surprisingly, there are diverging views among different slices of those polled. More members of Gen Z and millennials — 59% and 65%, respectively — than middle-aged or older Americans believe the U.S. government should start to immediately donate Covid-19 vaccines to other countries. And 63% of Democrats support immediate donations, compared with just 43% of Republicans.

Meanwhile, 48% of those surveyed believe the U.S. government should not donate vaccines to other countries at all, and keep a stockpile instead. Many more Republicans — 58% to be exact — agreed with this position, compared with 44% of Democrats. This revealed something of a dichotomy among Republicans, given that 52% of Republicans polled indicated they are hesitant to get vaccinated or do not plan to do so.

“Republicans appear a little bit torn,” said Jekielek. “They’ve expressed skepticism and hesitancy toward vaccines, but on the other hand, some acknowledged there is a value to having a stockpile. And that sentiment fits in with the idea that, first and foremost, many people are saying we should take care of the U.S. first.”
hilarious. i wonder how many have the thought process of 'I'm not going to get it, and so shouldn't anyone else!'
Whereas the Genz/Millennials are like, "I'm not going to get it so give it away..."
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Defiant »

A Nebraska study on asymptomatic COVID-19 cases in schools has found that infection rates may be higher than previously believed.

OPS PROTECTS, an Omaha Public School district program in a partnership with the University of Nebraska Medical Center, found that infection rates in schools involved in the first phase of the pilot program were two-and-a-half times higher for staff and nearly six times higher for students than what was being reported through routine self-initiated tests and reporting.

The program also found nearly 10 times the cases per population than what was observed through testing in the surrounding county. The study didn’t review if the cases originated in the school, just that teachers and students were coming to school with COVID-19 that was not previously identified because of limited testing outside of the school environment.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/study-sho ... d=77193309
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Snapshot, USA:
Mass vaccination sites across the U.S. have announced plans to shut down in recent days due to insufficient demand, even though all U.S. adults are now eligible to receive coronavirus vaccines.
Buried at the bottom (I missed this yesterday - emphasis added):
The White House and state officials are ramping up efforts to persuade unvaccinated Americans as a result, and Biden announced Wednesday a plan to give tax breaks to businesses that give their employees paid time off for getting vaccinated
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30125
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by YellowKing »

Which brings me to a thought I had the other day. At what point do we pay people (via cash or some other incentive) to get the vaccine? The stick's obviously not working. And I would imagine the expense is miniscule compared to the public health cost of a never-ending pandemic.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

I don't think we've even started to broadly use the stick yet. Things I would consider a stick - denial of entry into airports, concerts, theaters. Increased insurance rates. Denial of employment. I was a big fan of the carrot (government paying people), though I don't know the practical application. I feel like greater pressure is going to come from businesses and schools.

What I think needs to be settled right the hell now are religious exemptions for vaccinations on a national level. If the federal government isn't in a position to have a say on religion, I don't think they should be in a position to evaluate whether or not your religion is "worthy" of vaccine exemptions.

That should deal with a significant number of scofflaws that are using "religious belief" as a personal belief umbrella to get out of vaccination, and magically then they'll try to get medical exemptions - which I'd hope the medical community is prepared to address appropriately.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
coopasonic
Posts: 20966
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Dallas-ish

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by coopasonic »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:40 pm I don't think we've even started to broadly use the stick yet. Things I would consider a stick - denial of entry into airports, concerts, theaters. Increased insurance rates. Denial of employment.
I think the proverbial stick is pretty pointless when vaccine cards are about the easiest thing to fake and "nice" fake ones are already showing up on ebay, craigslist and facebook marketplace.

I was given two, one for each shot with just the vaccine details filled out. I can put any name I like on there. Wanna buy one?
-Coop
Black Lives Matter
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:40 pm I don't think we've even started to broadly use the stick yet. Things I would consider a stick - denial of entry into airports, concerts, theaters. Increased insurance rates. Denial of employment. I was a big fan of the carrot (government paying people), though I don't know the practical application. I feel like greater pressure is going to come from businesses and schools.
I'm with you on the carrot side. It usually works better especially since the other side risks a firestorm.
What I think needs to be settled right the hell now are religious exemptions for vaccinations on a national level. If the federal government isn't in a position to have a say on religion, I don't think they should be in a position to evaluate whether or not your religion is "worthy" of vaccine exemptions.
This is an interesting take. I wonder if 'red states' will rush through 'anti-COVID discrimination' legislation like they've been taking back emergency powers.
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70097
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:40 pm Increased insurance rates.
One would think that would be a thing the absolute moment the vaccine become freely available.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:49 pm This is an interesting take. I wonder if 'red states' will rush through 'anti-COVID discrimination' legislation like they've been taking back emergency powers.
Ohio was trying to a few weeks ago (IIRC) - trying to make it illegal to discriminate based on vaccination status. However, they didn't specifically state COVID, it was *all* vaccines. So (for example) the current policies of Ohio hospitals to require annual flu vaccines for employment would be tossed.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

LordMortis wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:57 pm One would think that would be a thing the absolute moment the vaccine become freely available.
You'd think so, however I'm also seeing lots and lots of angry push back. Basically if insurance companies are going to go after non-vaccinators they should also aggressively be going after the obese and sedentary. I don't disagree, however vaccination status is really easy to address.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70097
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:03 pm
LordMortis wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:57 pm One would think that would be a thing the absolute moment the vaccine become freely available.
You'd think so, however I'm also seeing lots and lots of angry push back. Basically if insurance companies are going to go after non-vaccinators they should also aggressively be going after the obese and sedentary. I don't disagree, however vaccination status is really easy to address.
Don't they? Most carriers around here incentivize not being obese and sedentary. If that's the semantic game then play the same game. Raise the rates for everyone and then incentivize vaccination. It's the same either way.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, they do but for whatever reason people are getting really jumpy over the vaccination idea. It's part of the reason we're being told to change it from "vaccine passport" to "vaccine verification". Multiple polls have demonstrated that acceptance (across all declared political affiliations) is better even though in practice its exactly the same thing.

Something, something, snowflakes.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55315
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Insurers can't penalize you for not getting a vaccine that's under the EUA.


As far as obesity/sedintary, they actually spend money on managing these populations rather than relying on incentives or penalties. They have some incentives and employers may add penalties but with HIPAA and ADAa, etc, it's less risky and usually cheaper to manage on the back end.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Defiant »

How long until one of the vaccines moves from emergency use to full approval?
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Defiant wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:06 pm How long until one of the vaccines moves from emergency use to full approval?
I think Pfizer applied for final consideration. Not sure about Moderna. I think there was a general thought it could be real soon - like the next few months.

Soon enough that employers should be consulting legal teams about how they're going to handle it, imho.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
Post Reply