Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

“Instructed by leaders”

Seeing LOTS of that kind of language in the reporting. Unsure if intentional.

WHO?!? I want names.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

In the face of a lack of a smoking gun, they've unfortunately been reduced to backing off a possible murder charge here.

malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

BTW some stats if you are counting. Of those who died on 1/6, 1 was ruled an OD (there was video of her getting trampled by the crowd but the ruling apparently didn't involve that factor), 3 were natural causes (2 heart attacks and the double stroke above), and a homicide (Babbitt who was shot by police).
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Defiant »

A US Capitol Police officer directed "all outside units" on the morning of January 6 to only monitor for anti-Trump agitators "who want to start a fight," not any "pro-Trump in the crowd," according to the findings of a newly revealed internal investigation.

Rep. Zoe Lofgren described the radio broadcast, the existence of which was not previously known, during a House Administration Committee hearing on security failures around the January 6 attack.
In that transmission, the officer said: "Attention all units on the field, we're not looking for any pro-Trump in the crowd. We're only looking for any anti pro-Trump who want to start a fight," according to Lofgren, a California Democrat.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/21/politics ... index.html
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

How do we still not have a 1/6 investigation? It a complete farce that nuggets like this can just drop out of nowhere.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

“A US Capitol Police officer”

Again, WHO, goddamit!? Is he still on the force? Was it the guy that resigned? Why the mystery?
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:41 pm “A US Capitol Police officer”

Again, WHO, goddamit!? Is he still on the force? Was it the guy that resigned? Why the mystery?
It's all a mystery with 1/6. We keep hearing tiny snippets of the truth. It was a goddamn rebellion against our country and they act like its privileged information. If I was a reporter my question to Biden/Psaki every day would be when does the public get read into 1/6? Enough with these games already.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82094
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Isgrimnur »

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:25 pm How do we still not have a 1/6 investigation? It a complete farce that nuggets like this can just drop out of nowhere.
Rep. Zoe Lofgren described the radio broadcast, the existence of which was not previously known, during a House Administration Committee hearing on security failures around the January 6 attack.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:08 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:25 pm How do we still not have a 1/6 investigation? It a complete farce that nuggets like this can just drop out of nowhere.
Rep. Zoe Lofgren described the radio broadcast, the existence of which was not previously known, during a House Administration Committee hearing on security failures around the January 6 attack.
I am talking about the big scale independent investigation that many have been advocating for. They have two or three committees digging into different aspects. This effort shouldn't be led and influenced by politicians potentially involved IMO.

Edit: It's also suboptimal. This disclosure sent a bunch of reporters scurrying off to get comments. And now we have this - we don't need games. We need transparency.

Last edited by malchior on Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

A formal investigation needs to happen. I feel like there's "effort triage" going on right now by the President and Congress. In addition to perhaps waiting for whatever the FBI is doing for the 1/6 investigation, they're also trying to stay on top of COVID, and proactively guard against the GOP's unrelenting attacks against voting rights nationwide. It's not that a formal 1/6 committee investigation isn't important, I honestly just don't know what's realistic in terms of the number of things they should be juggling.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:52 pm A formal investigation needs to happen. I feel like there's "effort triage" going on right now by the President and Congress. In addition to perhaps waiting for whatever the FBI is doing for the 1/6 investigation, they're also trying to stay on top of COVID, and proactively guard against the GOP's unrelenting attacks against voting rights nationwide. It's not that a formal 1/6 committee investigation isn't important, I honestly just don't know what's realistic in terms of the number of things they should be juggling.
I totally agree that is a consideration. This is exactly why I think it should be an independent investigation. It takes the juggling off the table so to speak.

There has been in-fighting about a investigation and these committee hearings are the 'agreed' compromise for now while they fight over the shape of the table. And this is an example about why it isn't working. It looks like Lofgren dropped a bomb in the hearing, everyone went scrambling to get to the bottom of it, and finds out it wasn't too big a thing? Or worse what is happening is the narrative that is shaping up of a disagreement between the USCP and Lofgren which takes the eye off the ball. It's completely unserious behavior.

Edit: Re-ordered a bit to make the point clearer.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

Case in point, more arrests are coming:
The U.S. Justice Department expects to charge at least 100 more people for taking part in the deadly attack on the U.S. Capitol, signaling prosecutors are far from finished investigating an attack that a judge on Thursday called an act of terrorism.

"Over 400 individuals have been charged in connection with the Capitol attack," federal prosecutors said in a court filing on Thursday. "The investigation continues and the government expects that at least one hundred additional individuals will be charged."

The Justice Department made the disclosure in a set of similar court filings asking judges to postpone deadlines in pending prosecutions.
Just keep rounding them up. Again, I want there to be a fully committee review and report. However, I also really want all the people that were there on 1/6 to answer for it. As quickly as possible.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43690
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Kraken »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:52 pm Case in point, more arrests are coming:
The U.S. Justice Department expects to charge at least 100 more people for taking part in the deadly attack on the U.S. Capitol, signaling prosecutors are far from finished investigating an attack that a judge on Thursday called an act of terrorism.

"Over 400 individuals have been charged in connection with the Capitol attack," federal prosecutors said in a court filing on Thursday. "The investigation continues and the government expects that at least one hundred additional individuals will be charged."

The Justice Department made the disclosure in a set of similar court filings asking judges to postpone deadlines in pending prosecutions.
Just keep rounding them up. Again, I want there to be a fully committee review and report. However, I also really want all the people that were there on 1/6 to answer for it. As quickly as possible.
Rounding up the rioters is all well and good, but I want to see their ringleaders and inciters at the highest levels answer for it.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

I will never (never) get tired of seeing people associated with the 1/6 attack being rounded up.

Landon Copeland of Utah was just charged for assaulting officers during #Capitol siege.

Apparently concluding the legal system needed a reminder that he was dangerous...

Yesterday he posted about the need to "bring guns and take the Capitol...
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70101
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by LordMortis »

Assuming this is all legit, what kind of idiot responds to his court date about violence against the capitol by publishing a threat of violence against the capitol for having to court?
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

An idiot that has never (not once) experienced consequences for their actions.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:29 pm An idiot that has never (not once) experienced consequences for their actions.
DING!

(or think they should, ever)
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »


BREAKING: active duty U.S. Marine Corps officer Christopher Warnagiris, stationed at Marine Corps Base Quantico arrested for his role in #Capitol breach.

Seen pushing police officer & struggling to keep Capitol door open to facilitate breach by others.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

If only they could somehow tie a Benghazi investigation into this:
House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy said Tuesday that he won’t support a proposal to form an independent, bipartisan commission to study the deadly Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, almost certainly eroding GOP support ahead of a vote and positioning his party as opposed to investigations of the attack.

McCarthy said he wanted the new panel to look beyond the violent uprising by supporters loyal to Donald Trump, who were trying to stop the certification of President Joe Biden’s election. McCarthy pushed to have the new commission also investigate other groups, namely the Black Lives Matter groups that protested police violence in the aftermath of the death of George Floyd.

He said that given the “shortsighted scope that does not examine interrelated forms of political violence in America, I cannot support this legislation.”
I'm guessing it's more related to the idea that a 1/6 investigation will officially tie Trump and the GOP to the horrific events that unfolded on 1/6, potentially damaging their brand as they have to answer questions and document in painstaking detail exactly what happened (and how).
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

Yeah - I was about to drop this in as well. It's Rick Wilson dropping some truth. The Democrats have to get it through their thick fucking skulls that the fantasy world they are living is over. We're well past being nice. This was a twitter thread originally.
1/ Of *course* Qevin McCarthy opposes a bipartisan January 6th Commission.

If the Democrats have the stones to pull it off -- an open question, TBH -- it will make Benghazi look like a sewing circle.

2/ They can't possibly look inside the reality of that day and maintain the Big Lie. They can't admit to the clear causality of Trump unleashing his mob. It opens them to personal, moral, and political liability for that day.

3/ More important in their minds is something darker.

They see the majority in their grasp, and just as they did in the states this year, they'll strike quickly, mercilessly, and without a moment of hesitation of a scintilla of shame to make the next election the last.

4/ For them, the problem wasn't an attack on our republic and a democratic election. For Kevin and Co, the problem was that it didn't work the first time. They need the shock and awe, the spectacle, the Trumphadi terror threat out there.

5/ This zero-sum game of power/not-power is what the Democrats never, ever, ever grasp. This year in the states, the GOP -- directed and assisted by Heritage Action -- has passed sweeping voter restrictions.

Democrats couldn't mount a response. They played defense.

6/ Even now, too many think policy will save them. "But our climate plan" or "but our control gun plan" or "but our daycare plan" isn't politics. It's masturbation.

The bad guys are willing to send people to kill you and you respond with a white paper? GTFO.

7/ This is why the Democrats should stop negotiation over a January 6th commission and just freaking DO it.

Do you think some kind of bipartisan comity and goodwill will be lost somehow? THEY SENT PEOPLE TO KILL YOU. Get a goddamned grip.

Play offense. Drag them.

8/ Here's what you don't get; the Trump GOP as comprised today isn't stupid. It's evil. They're smart. They'll play to your goodwill and instinct for a bipartisan veneer on the Jan 6th issue.

They're conning you.

9/ Stop fucking around. Announce the panel. START.

Don't delay. Time is fleeting, and 2022 is roaring into position. You need to nationalize the election over, you know, the little things like whether it's ok to send a violent, armed mob to the Capitol to overthrow an election.

10/ Washington is a city desperate for an illusion of normalcy and old-school transactional politics. The 2022 election will be defined by someone, very soon. If you want it to be about Antifaaaaaaaaaaaaa and BLM and imaginary conspiracy horseshit, keep on delaying.

11/ But when Speaker Greene takes office, let me know how that bipartisan circle jerk worked out for you.

12/ done
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

"positioning his party as opposed to investigations of the attack."

I'm.....shocked!! Good lord, WHY?! :roll:
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

When you consider the number of House Republicans that voted to overturn the election results, I don't think there's going to be much need for a "whip" to convince them.

I'm glad the DOJ is cruising along but the idea that the Democrats are trying to really get some type of bipartisan investigation into an event that was largely supported by the people they share a working space with is...nuts.

I continue to believe people need to hang for this. Genuinely and sincerely believe their deeds need to be recorded for history and we need to make sure it never happens again.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Defiant »

malchior wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 5:50 pm
Will an actual whip be involved? Given how far the Republican party has fallen, I feel I need to ask.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 6:47 pmI'm glad the DOJ is cruising along but the idea that the Democrats are trying to really get some type of bipartisan investigation into an event that was largely supported by the people they share a working space with is...nuts.
It's delusional and it's weak. I totally agree with what Rick Wilson is saying. That we're facing down one of the worst political crises since the Civil War and these fools are bumbling along...is all too typical. I wish I didn't see this coming but bottom line people like Pelosi need to go. She might be great at running the caucus but she doesn't have the backbone for this fight. They need a war chief.
I continue to believe people need to hang for this. Genuinely and sincerely believe their deeds need to be recorded for history and we need to make sure it never happens again.
Unfortunately we're on course for worse unless they start acting like this is an emergency.
User avatar
dbt1949
Posts: 25688
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:34 am
Location: Hogeye Arkansas

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by dbt1949 »

And they've indicted a third guy from Arkansas. At least we are contributing our fair share.
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
User avatar
Skinypupy
Posts: 20335
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Utah

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Skinypupy »

malchior wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 5:50 pm
I was far more surprised it was ever being considered as a possibility in the first place.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

Brutal.

User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28907
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Holman »

malchior wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 5:50 pm
The GOP seemed to have no problem creating non-bipartisan investigations on Benghazi (or eight of them).

Just move the Hell forward!
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82094
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Isgrimnur »

"Who are you going to believe: me, or your own, lying eyes?"
It's almost as if people are the problem.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 7:24 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 6:47 pmI'm glad the DOJ is cruising along but the idea that the Democrats are trying to really get some type of bipartisan investigation into an event that was largely supported by the people they share a working space with is...nuts.
It's delusional and it's weak. I totally agree with what Rick Wilson is saying. That we're facing down one of the worst political crises since the Civil War and these fools are bumbling along...is all too typical. I wish I didn't see this coming but bottom line people like Pelosi need to go. She might be great at running the caucus but she doesn't have the backbone for this fight. They need a war chief.
I continue to believe people need to hang for this. Genuinely and sincerely believe their deeds need to be recorded for history and we need to make sure it never happens again.
Unfortunately we're on course for worse unless they start acting like this is an emergency.
This was evident in 2016 and has been a glaring deficiency ever since. Do we really think this will be the turning point? I predict more of the same.

People like Pelosi have a lot to lose.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I think the reaction, or lack of more assertive action by current D leadership is indicative of the complaint against them in recent years. I think it also partly explains the rise and popularity of Bernie and co. and those with more 'extreme' liberal views.

With Biden, Pelosi, et al, we are getting MOTS. We are getting in some ways, a complacency that "things will just get better" and a possibly obsolete idea that "bipartisan politics MUST be the goal, at almost all cost".

This unwillingness to react appropriately (with a LOT more fervor, fight and whatever else you want to call it...gumption?) could literally be the end of our little Democracy experiment. Or the beginning of the end. I know that sounds alarmist, and I loathe alarmism, but the next logical step DOES seem to be some kind of proto-authoritarian state if the R's continue along the current path AND continue to be successful (they are, already) regarding voting restrictions or hindrances - of all stripes.

The Crazy is winning, here, even though it SEEMS like the non-Crazy is in power.

Stability/normalcy vs The Crazy is at 0-1 as far as I can tell - time to shift tactics.

There should be NO Inches given on this investigation. No negotiating. It obviously should not be made up or driven by obviously partisan liberals or Democrats, either. What's Bob Mueller doing these days? :D
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

I don't know how you deal with the fact that as soon as the (D) move forward with an investigation that doesn't have the "bi-partisan" stamp of approval on it, the (R) and their minions are going to scream that it's a witch hunt, it's politically motivated, etc... for the next 12+ months. In short, the (D) are dragging this out in the hopes they can get some buy in to help minimize what they rightly assume will be more meat to throw to the (R) base during this coming election cycle.

Yes, the (R) are somehow going to still call it a witch hunt no matter what, but if they can go down saying they fought it the whole time, even better. If they can get the (D) to concede process or somehow limit the scope of the investigation by claiming to be "bi-partisan", that's just gravy.

Regardless, there's no realistic way for this committee to properly function when it's inherently going to include the very insurrectionists that need investigation as part of the process. And yet somehow, it still needs to happen. But when House leadership is front and center part of the problem? Good luck.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:06 amThis unwillingness to react appropriately (with a LOT more fervor, fight and whatever else you want to call it...gumption?) could literally be the end of our little Democracy experiment. Or the beginning of the end. I know that sounds alarmist, and I loathe alarmism, but the next logical step DOES seem to be some kind of proto-authoritarian state if the R's continue along the current path AND continue to be successful (they are, already) regarding voting restrictions or hindrances - of all stripes.
Right but that people still are worrying about alarmism (not aimed at you just in general) is just appalling to me. Everyone wants to be so serious and alarmists are not serious people. People like Ornstein and Mann who saw this behavior for what it was during the tea party uprisings were shelved as alarmists. Unserious people. People to be ignored since we're a very serious nation run by the very serious-est of people. It's been a sham. Pelosi and Biden and all of them are fossils from a time that was mostly true. Now that we are in the shit they have *no ability* to deal with what is actually happening now. They are biased against seeing the fullness and breadth of it.
The Crazy is winning, here, even though it SEEMS like the non-Crazy is in power.
Exactly. Seems is the best way of putting it. In reality, to lay out a slightly clumsy metaphor they've in plain sight erected a siege tower against multiple institutions for years, have climbed over the walls, have taken the yard, and on 1/6 they were kicked in the keep's door. They got repulsed but the horde is still out in the yard.
Stability/normalcy vs The Crazy is at 0-1 as far as I can tell - time to shift tactics.
It has been for 10 years. When McConnell laid down his marker and started obstructing all business they should have had a game plan. Instead they carried on. When Trump was elected, they mostly carried on. 'Policy and demographics will save us'. Meanwhile back to the 'society as a castle', the angry mob was yelling outside the walls of the keep. And still even now we're talking about wow, that attack was crazy, maybe we need to paint the walls to make them more appealing to the citizens. They're beyond clueless.
There should be NO Inches given on this investigation. No negotiating. It obviously should not be made up or driven by obviously partisan liberals or Democrats, either. What's Bob Mueller doing these days? :D
Ha! Did you see his committee performance defending the report? He barely can remember what it said. He needs to stay out of sight. He deserves his retirement.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:14 amRegardless, there's no realistic way for this committee to properly function when it's inherently going to include the very insurrectionists that need investigation as part of the process. And yet somehow, it still needs to happen. But when House leadership is front and center part of the problem? Good luck.
That's a good point. It's the elephant (literally) in the room. The call is coming from within the House, as it were. HA! More??! :D
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

malchior wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:25 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:06 amThis unwillingness to react appropriately (with a LOT more fervor, fight and whatever else you want to call it...gumption?) could literally be the end of our little Democracy experiment. Or the beginning of the end. I know that sounds alarmist, and I loathe alarmism, but the next logical step DOES seem to be some kind of proto-authoritarian state if the R's continue along the current path AND continue to be successful (they are, already) regarding voting restrictions or hindrances - of all stripes.
Right but that people still are worrying about alarmism (not aimed at you just in general) is just appalling to me. Everyone wants to be so serious and alarmists are not serious people. People like Ornstein and Mann who saw this behavior for what it was during the tea party uprisings were shelved as alarmists. Unserious people. People to be ignored since we're a very serious nation run by the very serious-est of people. It's been a sham. Pelosi and Biden and all of them are fossils from a time that was mostly true. Now that we are in the shit they have *no ability* to deal with what is actually happening now. They are biased against seeing the fullness and breadth of it.
The Crazy is winning, here, even though it SEEMS like the non-Crazy is in power.
Exactly. Seems is the best way of putting it. In reality, to lay out a slightly clumsy metaphor they've in plain sight erected a siege tower against multiple institutions for years, have climbed over the walls, have taken the yard, and on 1/6 they were kicked in the keep's door. They got repulsed but the horde is still out in the yard.
Stability/normalcy vs The Crazy is at 0-1 as far as I can tell - time to shift tactics.
It has been for 10 years. When McConnell laid down his marker and started obstructing all business they should have had a game plan. Instead they carried on. When Trump was elected, they mostly carried on. 'Policy and demographics will save us'. Meanwhile back to the 'society as a castle', the angry mob was yelling outside the walls of the keep. And still even now we're talking about wow, that attack was crazy, maybe we need to paint the walls to make them more appealing to the citizens. They're beyond clueless.
There should be NO Inches given on this investigation. No negotiating. It obviously should not be made up or driven by obviously partisan liberals or Democrats, either. What's Bob Mueller doing these days? :D
Ha! Did you see his committee performance defending the report? He barely can remember what it said. He needs to stay out of sight. He deserves his retirement.
Then we've already lost, the Titanic is on its way down. Nothing left to do but....????
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:40 amThen we've already lost, the Titanic is on its way down. Nothing left to do but....????
The ice berg hit a boat. Maybe it's sinking. Nothing is 100% certain. The Democrats might somehow buck the odds and retain the House next year. It's very, very unlikely but it's not impossible. The Democrats might keep the Presidency in 2024. That's more likely to be honest right now. However, 2022 on is going to be increasingly rocky.

Back to what is happening now, I think that the Democrats are still up on deck trying to keep sailing the ship to New York when they should be figuring out if the boat is fucking sinking, getting damage control teams together, and frankly getting their shit together. But they're all Captain Smith staring out the window, watching the sea get higher, and I'm afraid they'll do it until the sea is crushing the windows on all of us.

Edit: Except in this version of an overly long movie, in a twist ending the first class decks turns out to be Jeff Bezos $550M yacht. The rich all hop on, the yacht separates off, dooming the rest of the ship intentionally, and they sail around wherever the heck they want.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:38 am
Smoove_B wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:14 amRegardless, there's no realistic way for this committee to properly function when it's inherently going to include the very insurrectionists that need investigation as part of the process. And yet somehow, it still needs to happen. But when House leadership is front and center part of the problem? Good luck.
That's a good point. It's the elephant (literally) in the room. The call is coming from within the House, as it were. HA! More??! :D
This is the problem. Originally the committee was going to be majority Democrat because this was an obvious problem. They negotiated to parity. The Democrats were going to control subpoenas. That was negotiated to parity. That is ultimately the surprise factor here. The Democrats negotiated themselves into a bad position to be effective but Lucy still pulled the ball away when letting the ball be kicked meant it'd bounce back in Charlie's face. Strange.

So one question arises. Is McCarthy an idiot? Well yes he is. He is seen as one of the dumbest House leaders in history but I think he's being puppet mastered a bit here. The game is to stall. They'll make a lot of noise about how unfair it is, run out the clock some, back off, and then undermine the committee. I think they don't want this kicked off until the summer when no one is around or paying attention. Their goal will be to make sure a weak, shitty report comes out smack dab in the middle of holidays to be forgotten. Again where no one is paying attention. And the Democrats have shown little to no capacity to anticipate GOP action, prevent GOP action or articulate the goals of GOP action in any sort of meaningful way to get ahead of it.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Capitol Riot Investigation Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

malchior wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:57 amBack to what is happening now, I think that the Democrats are still up on deck trying to keep sailing the ship to New York when they should be figuring out if the boat is fucking sinking, getting damage control teams together, and frankly getting their shit together.
I agree with this, but unless I completely misunderstood your tone and words, you implied that it's already too late. That the slow burn plan of R's literally taking the country back involved some sinister shit, which has been in place and working for 10 years. With the current (clueless, or powerless, or both) Dems in power, what will a win in 2024 matter? Or even the next presidency? I think we both agree that it will take a lot more than just winning even the Executive branch to really change the trajectory here, if it's not already too late.

To be clear, I myself am not sure it's not too late. I suspect it probably already is, but obviously hoping for the best here.

It's going to take some leadership balls of enormous girth and magnitude to turn it around if it's even possible. But I am not sure it IS possible when so much of the country, with their damned adolescent mindsets, support what we (here) consider to be the darker, authoritarian timeline. Worse, I'm pretty sure most of the non-Crazy in the country has not consciously considered or refuses to admit that the Trump voters and supporters are TOTALLY OK with authoritarianism (and probably a lot of other things) as long as it supports their world view. The Crazy are probably loathe to admit it openly, but they fucking LOVE Putin! Or at least what he represents...a strong, badass leader who takes no shit, and doesn't pussy around when people he doesn't like gets in his way. That's the piece that is so dangerous. It's so seemingly inconceivable (HERE! IN THE USA!!), that it literally boggles the mind of most Americans (the ones that are even vaguely thinking about the consequences and current goings-on), and is just bounced as crazy.

Going to quote some Manson here (Mark, not Charlie :P)

"There’s really only one way to threaten a democratic system: when one group decides that its values are more important than the system itself and it subverts the religion of democracy with some other, likely less virtuous, religion . . . and political extremism grows. Political extremists, because they are intractable and impossible to bargain with, are, by definition, childish. They’re a bunch of fucking babies. Extremists want the world to be a certain way, and they refuse to acknowledge any interests or values outside their own. They refuse to negotiate. They refuse to appeal to a higher virtue or principle above their own selfish desires...

They are also unabashedly authoritarian because, as children, they are desperate for an all-powerful parent to come and make everything “all right.”40 The most dangerous extremists know how to dress up their childish values in the language of transaction or universal principle. A right-wing extremist will claim she desires “freedom” above all else and that she’s willing to make sacrifices for that freedom. But what she really means is that she wants freedom from having to deal with any values that do not map onto her own. She wants freedom from having to deal with change or the marginalization of other people. Therefore, she’s willing to limit and destroy the freedom of others in the name of her own freedom.

"... the maturity of our culture is deteriorating. Throughout the rich and developed world, we are not living through a crisis of wealth or material, but a crisis of character, a crisis of virtue, a crisis of means and ends. The fundamental political schism in the twenty-first century is no longer right versus left, but the impulsive childish values of the right and left versus the compromising adolescent/adult values of both the right and left. It’s no longer a debate of communism versus capitalism or freedom versus equality but, rather, of maturity versus immaturity, of means versus ends."
Post Reply