On noble lies....

[Little Raven]

Damn, Slate.

Do we want public health officials to report facts and uncertainties transparently? Or do we want them to shape information to influence the public to take specific actions?

I'm not even going to try to summarize this. Just go read it.

[Smoove_B]

'tis late for me, but I will add this to my list for tomorrow morning. Hadn't seen it - thanks.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Damn, Slate.

Do we want public health officials to report facts and uncertainties transparently? Or do we want them to shape information to influence the public to take specific actions?

I'm not even going to try to summarize this. Just go read it.

I'm going to repost an observation I made earlier in the EbG COVID-19 thread, because it's pertinent to the crux of the Slate piece:

…historian John Barry, author of The Great Influenza (an absolute must-read if ever there was one), perfectly addresses what I was hinting at, in terms of the vital public health importance of maintaining credibility and public confidence during a pandemic, in the following piece he wrote for Smithsonian magazine:

How the Horrific 1918 Flu Spread Across America

…

Then there are the less glamorous measures, known as nonpharmaceutical interventions: hand-washing, telecommuting, covering coughs, staying home when sick instead of going to work and, if the pandemic is severe enough, widespread school closings and possibly more extreme controls. The hope is that “layering” such actions one atop another will reduce the impact of an outbreak on public health and on resources in today’s just-in-time economy. But the effectiveness of such interventions will depend on public compliance, and the public will have to trust what it is being told.

That is why, in my view, the most important lesson from 1918 is to tell the truth. Though that idea is incorporated into every preparedness plan I know of, its actual implementation will depend on the character and leadership of the people in charge when a crisis erupts.

I recall participating in a pandemic “war game” in Los Angeles involving area public health officials. Before the exercise began, I gave a talk about what happened in 1918, how society broke down, and emphasized that to retain the public’s trust, authorities had to be candid. “You don’t manage the truth,” I said. “You tell the truth.” Everyone nodded their heads in agreement.

Next, the people running the game revealed the day’s challenge to the participants: A severe pandemic influenza virus was spreading around the world. It had not officially reached California, but a suspected case—the severity of the symptoms made it seem so—had just surfaced in Los Angeles. The news media had learned of it and were demanding a press conference.

The participant with the first move was a top-ranking public health official. What did he do? He declined to hold a press conference, and instead just released a statement: More tests are required. The patient might not have pandemic influenza. There is no reason for concern.

I was stunned. This official had not actually told a lie, but he had deliberately minimized the danger; whether or not this particular patient had the disease, a pandemic was coming. The official’s unwillingness to answer questions from the press or even acknowledge the pandemic’s inevitability meant that citizens would look elsewhere for answers, and probably find a lot of bad ones. Instead of taking the lead in providing credible information he instantly fell behind the pace of events. He would find it almost impossible to get ahead of them again. He had, in short, shirked his duty to the public, risking countless lives.

And that was only a game.

[Carpet_pissr]

The “once vaccinated, nothing changes” noble lie was the turning point for me.

I went from an admitted liberal mentality (I say that specifically because Covid has been so politicized from the outset) toward “the pandemic” to “these ppl are either lying or have no idea what they’re doing”.

It really pissed me off since I felt we (again, the political left’s take) went from “sensible caution” to “way overboard, and now we are going to start losing support/trust/attention”.

The fucking noble lies destroyed a lot of political capital in more ways than one imo.

[Sudy]

Is a truth that costs (more) lives preferable to a lie or ommission that saves them? Events have proven the entirety of the public certainly couldn't be trusted to do the right thing in response to covid. However, is response (and trust) even worse because of mentioned noble lies that have been found out? ("Huh, I knew I was right not to trust them!") And if it's not, did the remainder need to be lied to?

Good luck divining absolute truth. But facts are facts. Uninterpreted facts, however, can be extremely dangerous in the hands of the uninformed.

If you elect intelligent, educated politicians you can trust, this is less of a concern. But it's always a concern. In the case of the U.S., I worry because of the effect it has on global policy (especially Canada's). Even when Canada goes a different route, much of our population is still tuning in to U.S. CNN.

The “once vaccinated, nothing changes” noble lie was the turning point for me.

Is that a lie, though? I'm still waiting for a definitive answer. But then, maybe I'm one of those who've been mislead. If absolutely nothing changes post-vaccination, then yeah, obviously there wouldn't seem to be a point in vaccinating lol. But I can accept "you still need to wear a mask and distance please, because we're not yet sure how much of a risk to spread you may still be", etc. Which of course, is where we are now in Ontario. It seems like a good idea to err on the side of caution. I already paid for the damn masks.

The downside, like the article states, is people are more likely to be enticed to get the shot if you give them a carrot. Maybe that's the worthwhile noble lie then--let them unmask (even if it's still dangerous) because we'll be safer overall with them vaccinated. But the other part of me says, f*** you--you're an adult; you don't need a reward for eating your vegetables. Your reward is being less likely to die or f***ing kill someone.

[Victoria Raverna]

The “once vaccinated, nothing changes” noble lie was the turning point for me.

I went from an admitted liberal mentality (I say that specifically because Covid has been so politicized from the outset) toward “the pandemic” to “these ppl are either lying or have no idea what they’re doing”.

It really pissed me off since I felt we (again, the political left’s take) went from “sensible caution” to “way overboard, and now we are going to start losing support/trust/attention”.

The fucking noble lies destroyed a lot of political capital in more ways than one imo.

It was not a lie. It was stupid to change the policy to allow vaccinated people to not wear masks. US is now back at the top of countries with highest daily new COVID-19 cases.

[malchior]

I think it's an interesting piece in a universe where the United States was a stable, not failing nation. The last paragraph is laughable.

Noble lies are a trap. We cannot predict the public’s behavior, and loss of trust is devastating. The general population is far too skeptical to blindly follow the advice of experts, and far too intelligent to be easily duped.

I'll re-write it to reflect reality.

Anything you try to tell the public in the United States is a trap. The public is divided into many factions and for years has been taught by an entire party, media apparatuses, and social media bubbles that the government is not to be trusted. The general population is far too misinformed, undereducated, and irrational to follow the advice of experts, and far too self-assured of their intelligence and belief in fantasies and miracles to be convinced.

It has a point about undercutting trust but the 'noble lies' are the outcome of a strategy to deal with a problem - not the cause.

[Defiant]

Several things:

1. Sometimes, not telling the truth immediately is absolutely the right thing: If you're in a packed location with few exits and there's a bomb with a one hour countdown, you don't want to start yelling "Bomb!" and start a panic and mad rush that could lead to more injuries and deaths than a slow, calm evacuation.

2. The fact is, a lot of facts we know about covid (especially in the early months) aren't facts, but merely our best determination based on the limited data we have. Science takes time to discover things, and it's a messy process. Unfortunately, we don't always have the luxury of time, and have to make decisions based on the limited information we have.

3. EvThere are bad actors out there trying to undermine people's faith in what we know, and have shown that they have an ability to do so even in things that are known and have been consistently known.


Ultimately, mistakes were made - I wouldn't have said "don't wear a mask", but I would have said "we have a limited supply of masks, and until we have a sufficient supply of masks, hording them while first responders, who are in far more jeopardy, don't have sufficient masks, is unAmerican". I would have avoided giving a specific number for herd immunity (or made it abundantly clear that any estimate was vague and not set in stone). But ultimately, the people in these positions have an unenviable job, and have to make difficult decisions that affect the health and well being of hundreds of millions based on limited information, and I don't envy them that role.

[malchior]

Ultimately, mistakes were made - I wouldn't have said "don't wear a mask", but I would have said "we have a limited supply of masks, and until we have a sufficient supply of masks, hording them while first responders, who are in far more jeopardy, don't have sufficient masks, is unAmerican".

Said to a public which was at that point emptying out every grocery and hardware store in the nation.

I would have avoided giving a specific number for herd immunity (or made it abundantly clear that any estimate was vague and not set in stone). But ultimately, the people in these positions have an unenviable job, and have to make difficult decisions that affect the health and well being of hundreds of millions based on limited information, and I don't envy them that role.

Exactly, to paraphrase Smoove_B from the other thread, I don't understand how people in public health from policy people down to the line health workers do it. We can point the finger at public health all we want but all they should do is hold up a mirror.

[LawBeefaroni]

Public policy, including public health, is ultimately in the hands of politicians. Lying is their default mode. Noble lies are like holy talismans to them.

We have seen what happens to the public health crusaders who try to fight the lies. If they're private sector they get vilified and if they're public sector they get silence or fired.

[Carpet_pissr]

The “once vaccinated, nothing changes” noble lie was the turning point for me.

I went from an admitted liberal mentality (I say that specifically because Covid has been so politicized from the outset) toward “the pandemic” to “these ppl are either lying or have no idea what they’re doing”.

It really pissed me off since I felt we (again, the political left’s take) went from “sensible caution” to “way overboard, and now we are going to start losing support/trust/attention”.

The fucking noble lies destroyed a lot of political capital in more ways than one imo.

It was not a lie. It was stupid to change the policy to allow vaccinated people to not wear masks. US is now back at the top of countries with highest daily new COVID-19 cases.

My brother, it’s not those of us who are fully vaccinated that are spreading Covid and spiking the numbers. See: recent comments by the (R) gov of Alabama.

“ Asked by reporters Thursday about plans to issue a mask mandate or other restrictions now that Covid cases are starting to rise again in her state, Ivey replied, “The new cases of Covid are because of unvaccinated folks. Almost 100% of the new hospitalizations are with unvaccinated folks. And the deaths are certainly occurring with unvaccinated folks.”


Delta variant has even conservatives talking up the vaccine but reluctance remains. The unvaccinated, Ivey said, are “choosing a horrible lifestyle of self-inflicted pain.”

“Folks are supposed to have common sense. But it’s time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks, not the regular folks. It’s the unvaccinated folks that are letting us down,” Ivey told reporters in Birmingham.”

I fully, 110% agree with her. Minus her decision to overuse the cringey (to me) “folks”. Gah I hate that word for some reason.

[Smoove_B]

I'm going to repost an observation I made earlier in the EbG COVID-19 thread, because it's pertinent to the crux of the Slate piece

Yes, this is exactly what it reminded me of and I'm glad you bumped your post because I couldn't remember exactly where it was.

I can't fully disagree with some of the message (from both articles), however if I had to side with one opinion over the other its going to be in the article you've posted as it's a closer comparison of what's unfolding in terms of the response to an issue that up until March of 2020 hadn't existed here in the United States.

I think what has been severely underestimated this entire time is human behavior. That, unfortunately has intertwined with (or is related to) how information has become weaponized.

What I don't think the general public has been (and is still not) keyed into, is that there has been a 20+ year war on vaccinations happening nationwide, fought in various communities, regions and entire states. Somehow, they absorbed the general public's anti mask / anti public health sentiments and Voltroned their way into a cohesive, national movement that of course is also anti COVID vaccination.

Here, they're disseminating disinformation and twisting the words of public health figures to promote their own ends. Now that they're not entirely focused on children and can tap into the political angst of the GOP, they've rallied so many more to their general cause.

This article is right - it is about trust and I've been saying for years that public health has a trust problem. That's a whole different discussion as to how we got there - it didn't happen because of or during the COVID pandemic. But the lack of trust absolutely made things worse and continues to make things worse.

So to go back to their core concept of the "noble lie", I obviously don't agree with it (what they're suggesting) and would instead say its a function of trying to communicate evolving/changing scientific information in a way that the general public can process and then internalize. Without the luxury of focus groups, committees and most importantly *time* to craft a message while the nation is on fire, mistakes were made. However, again, this is a once in a century+ (hopefully) event that no living person has any direct experience with, particularly in a world that spins on social media and political rhetoric.

When our recommendations scale out from what we would normally say for people in one community, to an entire region, to then an entire state and then finally the whole nation, there's going to be problems.

I am firmly in the camp that if we tried passing national seat belt laws right now, people would be similarly anti-seat belt and staging all kinds of protests. Or if there was a push for a national helmet law for bicycle and motorcycle use. America is in a weird spot and the pandemic is making it worse. Every day I question how it's all going to end while knowing it will be years before people around the globe are vaccinated. So while there are still hosts for the virus and it can still mutate, every new person infected is just another roll of the dice.

But a significant portion of Americans will scream no masks, no vaccinations and no lockdowns - the only tools we have available to stop all this from happening so the cycle repeats.

This is hell.

[Blackhawk]

To prepare for the next emergency, any plans should really include hiring a professional advertising agency to handle communication. Telling people the truth didn't work. We needed spin and psychological manipulation.

[Jeff V]

Facts are facts, but the farther removed from the source, the more spin is applied and the less factual they actually are. I don't particularly demonize the media because there's a lot of people doing good work, but at the end of the day, they will sensationalize needlessly for better ratings/readership. And going to the source is beyond the intellectual capacity of many, and they are not inclined to do so for tribal reasons.