MLB 2021 Post Season
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- Octavious
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Lindor couldn't possibly have started this season any worse. Can't hit and now gives up an error in a key spot leading to 2 runs. I honestly don't remember seeing anyone look that lost hitting as he does right now. Classic Mets
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- Lorini
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
All of the professional sports have changed over time. The three pointer for the NBA, the 2 point try after a TD in football and I’m sure the NHL has changed as well. Why does baseball have to stay stuck in history? Too much of it is stuck in history as it is (pitcher 'wins' really?).Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 6:18 pmOnly artificial in the sense that the game has been functioning for over a hundred years where shifting was never considered a major problem. It is self-limiting in that if you overdo it, you will likely suffer as a result, because smart teams will figure out how to counter it. I love when a nominally strong hitter plunks down a bunt to third, because no one is covering. They are trying to "artificially" increase hitting stats.Octavious wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:21 pmAny rule is artificial no? It's kind of like how in football you can't do certain crazy ass formations because it breaks the game.Jaymann wrote:I hate artificial rules like no shift. You have 7 defensive players, you should be able to place all 7 of them in left field if you want. It would be like saying no prevent defense in football. Even if it is ineffective, you should not be prevented from using it.
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- Exodor
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Angel Hernandez blew a call last night by calling a dropped fly ball an out, then arbitrarily assigned a runner to third base:
Fortunately it had no impact on the outcome of the game.
His explanation?
I don't understand why he's still employed when he's so famously bad.
Fortunately it had no impact on the outcome of the game.
His explanation?
I don't understand why he's still employed when he's so famously bad.
- Exodor
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
More bullshit from Hernandez tonight featuring a phantom HBP call.
Brady Singer was displeased.
And I thought our pitching coach, Cal Eldred, was going to take Hernandez' head off.
Brady Singer was displeased.
And I thought our pitching coach, Cal Eldred, was going to take Hernandez' head off.
- ImLawBoy
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
So if it happened twice per game you'd have it in 12 games, or three times per game in 8 games. You might find the value in having that annoyance reduced for 5-7% of games, but it doesn't seem worth a rule change to me. I suppose it doesn't bother me too much because the actual impact on games is pretty minimal, but it does bother me that this was put forth by MLB as a way to speed things up/reduce down time when it's impact is so small. I'd just like MLB to have a better method of proposing and testing rules instead of throwing stuff like this out there that a little research would have shown to be minimally impactful.Lorini wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 6:02 pmI will say that if you dug into the data you'd see that those 25 changes were in fact in less than 25 games.ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:31 pmBut this is actual game data and not just conjecture. When these games were played, they could have done what you said - but they didn't. Only 25 times over the course of the entire season did they make a substitution that would have been banned by the rule, despite the rule not yet being in place. Now, I suppose it's possible that they put all of those 25 changes in a handful of games making those particular games longer and frustrating (the article doesn't go into that level of detail), but even then the impact over the course of the season would be minimal.Lorini wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:12 pmIf only they only did it every 6.5 weeks we'd be in agreement. But that's not what happens as you can imagine Once they are in a close game, they will do it nearly every batter If they are way behind or way ahead then they will 'save the pen'. Right?ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:04 pm I think I'm understanding you. I think you're not understanding me. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself very well.
It may seem like this rule change had a big impact on what the Dodgers were doing with their pitching staff, but in practice it didn't have much of an impact. For the year prior to the rule being implemented, the article I linked showed that the Dodgers had only 25 pitching changes that would have been impacted by the rule. All of the other pitching changes they did throughout the year still would have been permitted. That means that once every 6.5 games or so (about once a week), the Dodgers wouldn't have been able to make a pitching change they wanted to.
(And I'm not trying to give you a hard time on this topic or beat a dead horse. You seem to like the rule and that's cool. I actually credit these occasional conversations with you on rules and modernization in baseball with helping me to be more open to changes. You're having an impact on me! )
Meanwhile, another silly extra innings game between the Cubs and Dodgers last night where all of the ghost runners (as Jim Deshaies likes to call them on Cubs broadcasts) scored in each half-inning, leading me to question whether they sped anything up or actually extended game time longer than it should have been. The Dodgers also blew 3 saves in that game by my count (8th, 10th, and 11th innings). At least the Cubs won for the sweep!
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- ImLawBoy
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
I know the umps have a union which is why Hernandez is probably still employed, but this is getting ridiculous. Not only is he objectively terrible, but all of the players and coaches know he's terrible, so he gets zero benefit of the doubt and it will only lead to more and more issues.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Yep exactly. There is always some balance of tension there but once everyone has lost faith it gets more and more out of hand. The failure of replay is an issue too. What's the value if stuff like this doesn't get fixed. This was reviewable and the remote umpire stood by this call. So Hernandez was backed by someone for whatever reason.ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 9:10 amI know the umps have a union which is why Hernandez is probably still employed, but this is getting ridiculous. Not only is he objectively terrible, but all of the players and coaches know he's terrible, so he gets zero benefit of the doubt and it will only lead to more and more issues.
On top of him admitting he 'guessed' a call in the previous night. One of the basic things you are taught as a referee, umpire, or official in a sport is that you should never guess. You should see it. If you don't, I guess (ha!) one approach is to admit it but not when your reputation is this poor. That was the crazy part to me. He doesn't even know how to defuse the situation.
I mean there has to be something you can do with the guy even with the union. Made him the safety officer or something. He certainly doesn't need to be out on the diamond blowing games up anymore.
- Lorini
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Actually I'm beginning to feel that the inability to change relief pitchers in the middle of an inning is why the Dodgers are losing so much. So while I like the visuals (or lack thereof) I'm certainly not a fan of the losses.
A question: I think all of us felt that signalling for an intentional walk vs having the pitcher pitch four times took any significant amount of time off of games. That said, does anyone miss the four pitch intentional walk? I suspect that what MLB may (also?) be looking at is dead time in a game and wanting to be rid of it. And I think this applies to the pitcher changes as well. As someone said 'it was not a good look'.
A question: I think all of us felt that signalling for an intentional walk vs having the pitcher pitch four times took any significant amount of time off of games. That said, does anyone miss the four pitch intentional walk? I suspect that what MLB may (also?) be looking at is dead time in a game and wanting to be rid of it. And I think this applies to the pitcher changes as well. As someone said 'it was not a good look'.
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- stimpy
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Him and Tony LaRussa should get together over a nice cup of coffee and learn the rules of baseball together.
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- LawBeefaroni
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
it isn't LaRussa's job to know every obscure new NL rule. However it is his job to have a coaching staff that does.
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- stimpy
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
It should be.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:57 amit isn't LaRussa's job to know every obscure new NL rule. However it is his job to have a coaching staff that does.
My understanding is that the coaching staff brought it up to him and he waved them off thinking he knew better. He didnt.
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- ImLawBoy
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
This is one that I've decided I'm fine with. I don't really miss the pitcher throwing the intentional balls, and while I don't think it saves much game time, it's one modernization that I don't think harms the game at all.
Funny thing is, this relatively obscure rule came up twice later that night in the Cubs/Dodgers game. Both teams ended innings with pitcher spots, and both managers knew that they could go to the batter before the pitcher to run. Of course, it's more likely to come up in NL games, so the managers were probably more aware of it (plus they probably heard about the incident earlier). I do think LaRussa should have handled it better, but in his defense, he only has to deal with the potential of the rule 9 games a year (those interleague games played in NL stadia).stimpy wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 11:07 amIt should be.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:57 amit isn't LaRussa's job to know every obscure new NL rule. However it is his job to have a coaching staff that does.
My understanding is that the coaching staff brought it up to him and he waved them off thinking he knew better. He didnt.
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- Jaymann
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
I have no objection to rule changes over time. Some are good, and some are bad, like no-shift.Lorini wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:36 pmAll of the professional sports have changed over time. The three pointer for the NBA, the 2 point try after a TD in football and I’m sure the NHL has changed as well. Why does baseball have to stay stuck in history? Too much of it is stuck in history as it is (pitcher 'wins' really?).Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 6:18 pmOnly artificial in the sense that the game has been functioning for over a hundred years where shifting was never considered a major problem. It is self-limiting in that if you overdo it, you will likely suffer as a result, because smart teams will figure out how to counter it. I love when a nominally strong hitter plunks down a bunt to third, because no one is covering. They are trying to "artificially" increase hitting stats.Octavious wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:21 pmAny rule is artificial no? It's kind of like how in football you can't do certain crazy ass formations because it breaks the game.Jaymann wrote:I hate artificial rules like no shift. You have 7 defensive players, you should be able to place all 7 of them in left field if you want. It would be like saying no prevent defense in football. Even if it is ineffective, you should not be prevented from using it.
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- Pyperkub
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
As I said above, I would rather see the pitchers mound moved back than see the shift banned, also that some players are adjusting - and those are the best players in the game. Turner adjusts by hitting over it, Posey by going the other way, etc.
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- Pyperkub
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Oh, and the people who REALLY need to adjust to the shift are the TV directors. They NEVER show the shifts - it should be at least a mandatory cut shot, and they should update the baserunner graphics to illustrate the shift.
One other note about hitters and the shift - situational hitting.
Pulling a Turner and trying to hit over the shift is fine in the early innings or in a tight game, but down multiple runs late in a game, where a baserunner is almost more important than a homer, bunt and take the free base dumbasses - get the pitcher in the stretch and put more pressure on the defense/pitcher - this also applies to when a pitcher is dominating from the windup - get him into the stretch and break his rhythm.
One other note about hitters and the shift - situational hitting.
Pulling a Turner and trying to hit over the shift is fine in the early innings or in a tight game, but down multiple runs late in a game, where a baserunner is almost more important than a homer, bunt and take the free base dumbasses - get the pitcher in the stretch and put more pressure on the defense/pitcher - this also applies to when a pitcher is dominating from the windup - get him into the stretch and break his rhythm.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
I've been frustrated by this too. The graphics might be a pain but an 'establishing shot' is all they need to do (a quick overhead shot as the batter approaches) and people are now oriented. It's not hard.
- Octavious
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
I still say just telling them to adjust is wishful thinking. Sure some can do it, but especially with lefties it's really super effective.
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- ImLawBoy
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
The thing with the shift is that banning it is not something that is really going to be all that directly noticeable in gameplay. I assume they'd make so that you have to be within x feet of a certain point, and so after an adjustment period where teams try to get away with as much as possible, it'll settle into a routine. The impacts will be stuff not directly attributable to the shift, like increased offense (and increased game length - let's not forget they go hand-in-hand).
The idea that players are going to adjust to the shift is wishful thinking. MLB has been shift-heavy for a while now, and outside of a few examples, hitters haven't adjusted. Offense (and contracts!) is about OPS, so they're going to continue working the count and swinging for the fences (or in the case of Javier Baez, just swinging for the fences). They'll keep doing that if the shift gets eliminated, of course, but more of their non-home run contact will find holes and batting averages and OBP will go up.
I don't have strong feelings either way on the shift because, like I noted, it's not really going to have much impact on me as a viewer. I'll miss the occasional left handed power hitter dropping a bunt down the third base line, but that's rare enough that I'll get over it.
The idea that players are going to adjust to the shift is wishful thinking. MLB has been shift-heavy for a while now, and outside of a few examples, hitters haven't adjusted. Offense (and contracts!) is about OPS, so they're going to continue working the count and swinging for the fences (or in the case of Javier Baez, just swinging for the fences). They'll keep doing that if the shift gets eliminated, of course, but more of their non-home run contact will find holes and batting averages and OBP will go up.
I don't have strong feelings either way on the shift because, like I noted, it's not really going to have much impact on me as a viewer. I'll miss the occasional left handed power hitter dropping a bunt down the third base line, but that's rare enough that I'll get over it.
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- pr0ner
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Well, Pujols got DFA'd today so his time "protecting" Trout in LA is done.pr0ner wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 3:03 pmAlbert Pujols and his -0.3 WAR and Justin Upton and his 0.0 WAR are great lineup protection for Mike Trout.Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:20 pmYes, and he is surrounded by Ohtani, Rendon, Upton and Puhols, but they are sub .500. If they only had a couple pitchers.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:18 pm Can we take a second to appreciate how good Trout is, especially in this "year of the pitcher"?
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- Pyperkub
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Really? How would you like to be the Umpire making that judgement call? The instant replay official? What about late shifts, like 2nd base pickoff plays? What about extra-innings, bases loaded, less than two outs infields with an outfielder playing infield to get a groundball force at home? It's a massive can of worms.ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 12:51 pm The thing with the shift is that banning it is not something that is really going to be all that directly noticeable in gameplay. I assume they'd make so that you have to be within x feet of a certain point, and so after an adjustment period where teams try to get away with as much as possible, it'll settle into a routine. The impacts will be stuff not directly attributable to the shift, like increased offense (and increased game length - let's not forget they go hand-in-hand)...
Last edited by Pyperkub on Thu May 06, 2021 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
They'll figure it out. The NBA has figured out how to determine zone defense, soccer and hockey have figured out offsides, and football is constantly requiring officials eyeball things.Pyperkub wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 2:43 pmReally? How would you like to be the Umpire making that judgement call? The instant replay official? It's a massive can of worms.ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 12:51 pm The thing with the shift is that banning it is not something that is really going to be all that directly noticeable in gameplay. I assume they'd make so that you have to be within x feet of a certain point, and so after an adjustment period where teams try to get away with as much as possible, it'll settle into a routine. The impacts will be stuff not directly attributable to the shift, like increased offense (and increased game length - let's not forget they go hand-in-hand)...
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- Jaymann
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
I wonder if he will finish his career with the Cardinals.pr0ner wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 2:14 pmWell, Pujols got DFA'd today so his time "protecting" Trout in LA is done.pr0ner wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 3:03 pmAlbert Pujols and his -0.3 WAR and Justin Upton and his 0.0 WAR are great lineup protection for Mike Trout.Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:20 pmYes, and he is surrounded by Ohtani, Rendon, Upton and Puhols, but they are sub .500. If they only had a couple pitchers.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:18 pm Can we take a second to appreciate how good Trout is, especially in this "year of the pitcher"?
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Being a lefty, it amused me to no end when opposing teams would automatically put on a massive shift just because...lefty! Growing up though, my grammar school had thoughtlessly placed the actual school where right field should have been, so even in gym class, we played "right field out." So what's a southpaw to do?
I did become competent at switch-hitting, although I lacked power batting right handed. A more useful skill was learning to hit line drives down the third base line. I could run forever since there was rarely a 3rd baseman or left fielder anywhere near there.
Now in the major leagues, there are relatively few hitters that are predictable enough to warrant a shift. I consider them not very good hitters. If they get out more often because other teams shift on them, it shouldn't be up to the defense to not shift, it should be up to the batter to become a better hitter. Like Ted Williams once said, "hit 'em where they ain't."
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- ImLawBoy
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
I mean, that sounds good and all, but it doesn't match reality.Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 2:59 pm Now in the major leagues, there are relatively few hitters that are predictable enough to warrant a shift. I consider them not very good hitters. If they get out more often because other teams shift on them, it shouldn't be up to the defense to not shift, it should be up to the batter to become a better hitter. Like Ted Williams once said, "hit 'em where they ain't."
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- pr0ner
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Your premise that there are relatively few hitters predictable enough to warrant a shift, and that they're not very good hitters as a result, is flawed. In 2021 alone, there are 139 batters who see a shift on at least half their plate appearances. 105 are at 60%; 67 batters see them 70% of the time. 40 batters see them 80% of the time. Among batters who see shifts over 80% of the time are Corey Seager, Christian Yelich, Cody Bellinger, Kyle Tucker, Max Muncy, Yordan Alvarez, Jose Ramirez, Max Kepler, Yasmani Grandal, and Carlos Santana (note that some of these stats are left handed plate appearances only for the switch hitters). Do you consider all of these batters "not very good"? Two players on this list are league MVPs, there are plenty of Silver Slugger awards, and they are almost all better than league average hitters.Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 2:59 pm Now in the major leagues, there are relatively few hitters that are predictable enough to warrant a shift. I consider them not very good hitters. If they get out more often because other teams shift on them, it shouldn't be up to the defense to not shift, it should be up to the batter to become a better hitter. Like Ted Williams once said, "hit 'em where they ain't."
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- LawBeefaroni
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Lots of good hitters have trouble with curveballs and cut fastballs too. Ban those along with the shift.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
By the way, all this pearl-clutching and handwringing being done by the MLB about the length of games or lack of offense is ridiculous. As noted upthread, one of the best baseball players in history is playing today and he's probably got a lower Q score than a middling Twitch streamer.
Shaving 5 minutes off the average game is what you worry about when you're vying with the NFL for the #1-type TV money, not when you're hanging around with the NHL.
They need to concentrate on promoting the players and shit less on the game.
Shaving 5 minutes off the average game is what you worry about when you're vying with the NFL for the #1-type TV money, not when you're hanging around with the NHL.
They need to concentrate on promoting the players and shit less on the game.
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- ImLawBoy
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Just put the ball on a goddamn tee!LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 3:25 pm Lots of good hitters have trouble with curveballs and cut fastballs too. Ban those along with the shift.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
On the other hand, making the game itself more enticing to a younger and larger audience increases the game's popularity, which leads to it being easier to market the stars outside of their home markets.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 3:40 pm By the way, all this pearl-clutching and handwringing being done by the MLB about the length of games or lack of offense is ridiculous. As noted upthread, one of the best baseball players in history is playing today and he's probably got a lower Q score than a middling Twitch streamer.
Shaving 5 minutes off the average game is what you worry about when you're vying with the NFL for the #1-type TV money, not when you're hanging around with the NHL.
They need to concentrate on promoting the players and shit less on the game.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Pandering to the fickle demos is folly. It's a race to the bottom.ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 3:48 pmOn the other hand, making the game itself more enticing to a younger and larger audience increases the game's popularity, which leads to it being easier to market the stars outside of their home markets.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 3:40 pm By the way, all this pearl-clutching and handwringing being done by the MLB about the length of games or lack of offense is ridiculous. As noted upthread, one of the best baseball players in history is playing today and he's probably got a lower Q score than a middling Twitch streamer.
Shaving 5 minutes off the average game is what you worry about when you're vying with the NFL for the #1-type TV money, not when you're hanging around with the NHL.
They need to concentrate on promoting the players and shit less on the game.
"Clown question, bro" did more for youth interest than any rule change but MLB never capitalized.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Or, you know, just fire them and hire better hitters that can deal with such things.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 3:25 pm Lots of good hitters have trouble with curveballs and cut fastballs too. Ban those along with the shift.
I only occasionally check in to see what's going on in baseball anymore, but the game seems far more tolerant of those hitting .200 than it was when I followed it religiously. It used to be that a .240 season would raise serious doubts whether a player was through. Unless that person was a defensive savant (like many catches and a SS or two). Hell, I thought the league was weaseling out when they lowered the height of the mound because the likes of Bob Gibson and Vida Blue were too scary to hitters.
These days it seems like a partially-skilled player, say, one really good at hitting fastballs 500', feels entitled to a starting position. They don't have play good defense (especially if they can DH), and don't even have to hit their weight in average. The antidote to domineering pitchers is talented hitters that can adapt to such creatures. Rosters seem to have a lot of one-trick ponies though, and that really doesn't make for good baseball.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
There are clouds in the sky today if you want to go outside and yell at them.Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 3:55 pm I only occasionally check in to see what's going on in baseball anymore, but the game seems far more tolerant of those hitting .200 than it was when I followed it religiously. It used to be that a .240 season would raise serious doubts whether a player was through. Unless that person was a defensive savant (like many catches and a SS or two). Hell, I thought the league was weaseling out when they lowered the height of the mound because the likes of Bob Gibson and Vida Blue were too scary to hitters.
Batting average isn't considered a very valuable metric these days - it's all about OPS and advanced stats. Do you still consider RBI valuable, too?
I also enjoy that you seem to think it's as simple as firing players and getting someone who can hit, as though MLB doesn't already have almost all of the elite talent.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Wasn't pretty but the Mets somehow spilt a 4 game series with the Cardinals. I'll take it.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
I'm quite sure there is plenty of marginal meat on the rosters because they go BOOM one time out of 15, while there are those languishing in the minors able to hit .300 or more but do so with singles and doubles.
And FTR, I already chased away the clouds today.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
If those players existed, they'd be up in the majors. But players like Nick Madrigal are the exception, not the rule these days.Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 6:50 pmI'm quite sure there is plenty of marginal meat on the rosters because they go BOOM one time out of 15, while there are those languishing in the minors able to hit .300 or more but do so with singles and doubles.
And FTR, I already chased away the clouds today.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
Speaking of rules changes, here's a sneaky one: Games can no longer be played under protest.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
15 protests upheld in 100 years. I surprised it was that many.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
I wish MLB would do what the NBA does with the last two minutes of a game and offer an assessment of ninth inning calls. That would probably get Hernandez fired but that'd be a good thing
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
They should just be tracking how many calls of his get overturned. Once you hit a certain limit bam you're done. Not only is he terrible he also has the most smug f'n look on his face. It's Ted Cruz level of punchability.
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Re: MLB 2021 Regular Season
I don't know who that Kelly guy is, but every time he comes in to pitch for the Dodgers I know it's time to bat around.
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