The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

[hepcat]

Wait...what? That’s a thing now?

[LawBeefaroni]

Wait...what? That’s a thing now?

I just heard about it from a cab driver friend at the bar. His sister and a few fares mentioned it to him.


Has critical thinking completely disappeared? We are fucked.

[Remus West]

Wait...what? That’s a thing now?

Idiots? No, they’ve been around for a long time. Sadly they started banding together and exponentially growing their idiocy.

[Zaxxon]

We are fucked.

That'll be $1.

[Isgrimnur]

[YellowKing]

The nice thing about pre-internet days is that it was hard to spread your stupidity. You really had to work hard at it.

[Smoove_B]

I know this is happening all over the country right now, but I did not expect to see it in New Jersey:

Parlapanides wrote that fewer than 10% of documented COVID-19 cases in the United States have been between the ages of 5 and 17, and that infected children mostly report either no symptoms or mild illness.

“All teachers that wanted to be vaccinated have been vaccinated so teachers are now safe in the classroom,” Parlapanides wrote.

He asked Murphy to rescind the mask requirement “so that students can breathe and that at graduation, parents can see their children’s smiling face.”

Still running with the testing statistic despite the fact that kids nationwide have been proportionally under-tested.

At one time I believed something like the Black Plague or a respiratory virus that kills within 24 hours would be the worst thing to happen. Having lived 15+ months with people like Parlapanides croaking about how this is no big deal and actually advocating that unvaccinated children should be permitted to go mask-free indoors has me completely rethinking my original position. This is absolute hell.

[malchior]

At one time I believed something like the Black Plague or a respiratory virus that kills within 24 hours would be the worst thing to happen. Having lived 15+ months with people like Parlapanides croaking about how this is no big deal and actually advocating that unvaccinated children should be permitted to go mask-free indoors has me completely rethinking my original position. This is absolute hell.

An Ocean County superintendant...

Code: Select all

Ocean County

Choice for President (Vote For 1)

Candidate                 Total Votes   % Votes

Donald J. TRUMP (R)*      217,740       63.5%  
Joseph R. BIDEN (D)       119,456       34.9%

[Zaxxon]

At one time I believed something like the Black Plague or a respiratory virus that kills within 24 hours would be the worst thing to happen. Having lived 15+ months with people like Parlapanides croaking about how this is no big deal and actually advocating that unvaccinated children should be permitted to go mask-free indoors has me completely rethinking my original position. This is absolute hell.

The sentiment of a tweet from many months ago still sticks with me:

We have this phrase, 'avoid it like the plague.' Turns out Americans don't do that.

[Smoove_B]

I guess for non locals understanding the politics for that Superintendent story makes more sense.

And yes, "avoiding it like the plague" should be banished from our lexicon, along with the long established cannon for what we would expect to happen in the early stages of a zombie uprising.

And with that, please do enjoy stories from around the nation as communities demand that during these final weeks of the school year that children go mask free. I'm beginning to think there are people actively trying to spread this virus as far and as wide as possible:

Iowa joined a handful of other U.S. states on Thursday in passing a law that forbids cities, counties and local school districts from requiring people to wear face masks that protect against the spread of the coronavirus.

Governor Kim Reynolds, a Republican, signed the measure into law just hours after it was approved by the state legislature. Texas and Florida, which also have Republican governors, have passed similar measures.

...

In his Tuesday executive order, Texas Governor Greg Abbott said schools must scrap any mask requirements by June 4. However, public hospitals and state jails may still impose mask requirements, the order said.

On Wednesday, the Utah legislature passed a bill forbidding public schools and state universities from requiring masks, which now heads to the governor to be signed into law.

I am going to start rumors that the next big change will be to pass laws that no longer require restaurant employees to wash their hands after using the restroom.

[Unagi]

I know it just sounds like a hepcat joke (meaning, of the highest quality), but if I’m compelled to wear pants at the grocery store, why can I not be compelled to wear a mask?

[LawBeefaroni]

I know it just sounds like a hepcat joke (meaning, of the highest quality), but if I’m compelled to wear pants at the grocery store, why can I not be compelled to wear a mask?

Well, theoretically you can be still be compelled to wear a mask, even in Texas. The law only forbids state, municipal, and public education entities from requiring masks.

A grocery can still require it. At their own peril in the case of Texas.

[raydude]

Wait...what? That’s a thing now?

I just heard about it from a cab driver friend at the bar. His sister and a few fares mentioned it to him.

Has critical thinking completely disappeared? We are fucked.

If someone asks me if I'm worried about being tracked via nanobots in my bloodstream I'll say no, I already have a tracker - and wave my phone in their face. Then point to their phone and say "You have a tracker too, as long as you have that."

[Little Raven]

A grocery can still require it. At their own peril in the case of Texas.

Every store I go to in Texas still has a mask policy. I don't think they're enforcing it and I occasionally see someone without one, but 99% of people have them on.

[Kraken]

My grocery store will drop its mask requirement on 5/29. Since it's the biggest chain in the state, I imagine all or most others will follow suit. I only stopped double-masking a few weeks ago, so this makes me nervous. Will be interesting to see how many people go barefaced. I don't think I will, at least not right away.

[LordMortis]

My grocery store will drop its mask requirement on 5/29. Since it's the biggest chain in the state, I imagine all or most others will follow suit. I only stopped double-masking a few weeks ago, so this makes me nervous. Will be interesting to see how many people go barefaced. I don't think I will, at least not right away.

Talk to me in July. I don't see me de masking in doors with strangers or if I don't know everyone is vaccinated at least until then. We'll revisti what spread rates are like then. I look at worldometers and still see rampant spread, even if I'm theoretically nigh invulnerable now. My state is still 2000 new cases a day for a rolling average with a trailing 60 deaths. Get us back down below 500 and we'll start having a conversation.

[Smoove_B]

At the intersection of public health and employment law, enter the mask debate:

Chloe Reichel: Businesses are dropping indoor mask policies in light of the recent CDC guidance. What does that mean for an employee, if they contract COVID-19 in the workplace?

Sharona Hoffman: I think that’s a risk that we’re taking now, and I think the CDC’s very sudden turnaround was a mistake.

And I don’t think an employee will have any recourse, because the employer is going to be following CDC recommendations and saying if you’re vaccinated, you don’t need a mask, and if you’re not vaccinated, you should wear a mask. But we have no enforcement mechanism. We don’t have vaccine passports, we don’t have any mandates, and the CDC didn’t recommend mandates for checking people’s vaccine status — they said it’s an honor system.

And so, if the employer is following those guidelines, the employee is going to be out of luck. The employee is just at risk. One could say the employee should change jobs and be in a job where he or she is not exposed to a lot of people. But the employer is not violating any law or any guidance.

Thankfully America has a long and detailed history of protecting workers, so we're all good.

[Kraken]

My grocery store will drop its mask requirement on 5/29. Since it's the biggest chain in the state, I imagine all or most others will follow suit. I only stopped double-masking a few weeks ago, so this makes me nervous. Will be interesting to see how many people go barefaced. I don't think I will, at least not right away.

Talk to me in July. I don't see me de masking in doors with strangers or if I don't know everyone is vaccinated at least until then. We'll revisti what spread rates are like then. I look at worldometers and still see rampant spread, even if I'm theoretically nigh invulnerable now. My state is still 2000 new cases a day for a rolling average with a trailing 60 deaths. Get us back down below 500 and we'll start having a conversation.

MA's rolling 7-day average has been below 500 for about a week now and is still falling, and deaths are comfortably below 20/day. That was my own arbitrary relaxation number. But now the Great Unmasking threatens to derail it. If we're still bumping along under 500 by the end of June, I'll start to drop my guard.

[Alefroth]

My employer just announced we won't drop our mask policy until the CDC says everyone can go maskless.

[El Guapo]

My grocery store will drop its mask requirement on 5/29. Since it's the biggest chain in the state, I imagine all or most others will follow suit. I only stopped double-masking a few weeks ago, so this makes me nervous. Will be interesting to see how many people go barefaced. I don't think I will, at least not right away.

Talk to me in July. I don't see me de masking in doors with strangers or if I don't know everyone is vaccinated at least until then. We'll revisti what spread rates are like then. I look at worldometers and still see rampant spread, even if I'm theoretically nigh invulnerable now. My state is still 2000 new cases a day for a rolling average with a trailing 60 deaths. Get us back down below 500 and we'll start having a conversation.

MA's rolling 7-day average has been below 500 for about a week now and is still falling, and deaths are comfortably below 20/day. That was my own arbitrary relaxation number. But now the Great Unmasking threatens to derail it. If we're still bumping along under 500 by the end of June, I'll start to drop my guard.

I'm going to stay masked in grocery stores (and like environments) for the foreseeable future.

[Daehawk]

Ive been wondering about the long haul problems. If you have had all your shots they say that if you do get it it will be hardly anything. But what about having long haul effects after 2 shots. Is that possible?

[Smoove_B]

No one knows, though the chances of you getting COVID-19 after being vaccinated right now are pretty low. So from that small pool of people that do, we'd need to study them to see if they have any chronic symptoms. Unofficially, I'd be surprised if they did however so much depends (I think) on what your overall health scenario looks like 6,8,10+ months after you're fully vaccinated. Namely, how strong is your immune response to exposure in May of 2022. Are you just partially protected and can expect a slightly more noticeable illness? Are you getting sick enough that you can spread it to others?

That's why the booster shot seems likely. As long as the virus is circulating (and by all accounts its going to be actively circulating worldwide for the next 3+ years) we want to make sure protection is maintained during future exposures.

That's also what's killing me right now. I have family friends that have indicated they're not vaccinating. She's a teacher and has two kids aged 15 and 12. She's effectively said "We've accepted that we're going to get COVID-19 at some unknown point in the future and we don't care what that means for us or others that can't be vaccinated." It's beyond frustrating.

[El Guapo]

No one knows, though the chances of you getting COVID-19 after being vaccinated right now are pretty low. So from that small pool of people that do, we'd need to study them to see if they have any chronic symptoms. Unofficially, I'd be surprised if they did however so much depends (I think) on what your overall health scenario looks like 6,8,10+ months after you're fully vaccinated. Namely, how strong is your immune response to exposure in May of 2022. Are you just partially protected and can expect a slightly more noticeable illness? Are you getting sick enough that you can spread it to others?

That's why the booster shot seems likely. As long as the virus is circulating (and by all accounts its going to be actively circulating worldwide for the next 3+ years) we want to make sure protection is maintained during future exposures.

So how much of the thinking behind booster shots is "we have specific evidence / data / etc. that vaccination protection will fade over time" and how much of it "we don't know whether it does or not, and booster shots shouldn't cause any harm, so we might as well give booster shots in order to be safe"?

[Daehawk]

I thought the booster shot stuff was laughable..as in who the hell would want to do that when the first ones make you so sick. But since my 2 did nothing but a sore arm I no longer worry about them. Same as a flu shot to me.

[Smoove_B]

So how much of the thinking behind booster shots is "we have specific evidence / data / etc. that vaccination protection will fade over time" and how much of it "we don't know whether it does or not, and booster shots shouldn't cause any harm, so we might as well give booster shots in order to be safe"?

I think the theories about needing the booster shots are based on what we know (broadly) about coronaviruses. Namely that sometimes the human body just doesn't produce a "strong" response when exposed. Here the "strong" refers to the memory - your body's ability to recognize when you're exposed again in the future and then quickly mount a neutralizing response. Maybe too much (and too detailed to read), but this article from Nature in August of 2020 (!) covers the basics. Obviously we've learned more since this article was published, but the historical info about coronaviruses is couched inside.

Generally speaking vaccinations are a solid bet and typically offer long lasting protection. However, even commonly used vaccines - like DPT and Tetanus - require boosters eventually.

[Smoove_B]

This shouldn't be big news, but here we go -- NJ hospital will require COVID vacciation for employees:

RWJBarnabas Health will require COVID vaccinations for all employees at the supervisor level and higher, the company announced Thursday.

Eventually, it anticipates the shots will be required for all its workers, the company said.

The decision will have a big impact, as RWJBarnabas has 11 hospitals across the state and says it is New Jersey’s largest private employer, with more than 35,000 employees, 9,000 physicians and 1,000 residents and interns.

[Smoove_B]

This seems reasonable.

Guidance from Georgia State University:
- no vaccine requirement
- no mask requirement
- faculty may not ask students their vaccine status
- faculty may not require students to wear mask in class
- faculty may not require students to wear mask *in their own office*

Wow.

[El Guapo]

I'm waiting for Liberty University to one up them by mandating COVID infection.

[stessier]

My brother works in the Indiana University system and he said all students and professors are required to have the vaccine before returning. That seems surprising.

[Remus West]

This seems reasonable.

Guidance from Georgia State University:
- no vaccine requirement
- no mask requirement
- faculty may not ask students their vaccine status
- faculty may not require students to wear mask in class
- faculty may not require students to wear mask *in their own office*

Wow.

Are faculty required to remain in their office with an unmasked student? If not I'd hold all unmasked meetings in the lobby. "You want privacy to discuss your standing in my class? Sorry. As you can see there are a lot of people here. We can not use my office because it is being kept clean."

[Defiant]

Are faculty required to remain in their office with an unmasked student? If not I'd hold all unmasked meetings in the lobby. outdoors

Fixed that for you.

[Remus West]

Are faculty required to remain in their office with an unmasked student? If not I'd hold all unmasked meetings in the lobby. outdoors

Fixed that for you.

It didn't say they couldn't require masks in the lobby.

[Smoove_B]

My brother works in the Indiana University system and he said all students and professors are required to have the vaccine before returning. That seems surprising.

My employer mandated vaccines for students - might have been the first (or very close) in the nation to do so (I'm quite proud of them for doing so). I'm confident they're going to mandate it for employees and staff as well and can only assume they're waiting for the vaccines to get final approval before trying.

[Little Raven]

The Texas Conundrum.

In early march, Texas became the first state to abolish its mask mandate and lift capacity constraints for all businesses. Conservatives hailed Governor Greg Abbott’s decision, while liberals predicted doom and death and President Joe Biden disparaged it as “Neanderthal thinking.”

Nine weeks later, the result seems to be less than catastrophic. In fact, in a new paper, economists at Bentley University and San Diego State University found that Abbott’s order had practically no effect on COVID-19 cases. “The predictions of reopening advocates and opponents failed to materialize,” the authors concluded.

How could a policy so consequential—or at least so publicly contested—do so little?

[Isgrimnur]

I'm sure there will be no possibility of a Taiwanesque event to put the lie to the Texas experiment.

Never forget that, to the government, you are, at best, a statistic.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

My employer officially dropped its mask requirement for vaccinated people. Of course, we aren’t allowed to ask people their vaccination status. But so far, at least, I haven’t seen one person without their mask in the building.

[Smoove_B]

I'm surprised it took so long, but GOP state rep from OHIO is floating legislation to ban the vaccine lottery:

"We don't need Governor DeWine giving us an award for getting a shot like when we were kids. Ohioans are smart/wise people who make decisions for themselves. The vaccine lottery is a frivolous use of taxpayer dollars," the GOP representative tweeted Saturday. According to a report by the Ohio Capitol Journal, Powell will introduce legislation with an emergency clause that would allow the bill to immediately "prevent the COVID-19 vaccination lottery from taking place."

To be fair, there's at least one (D)etractor:

Democratic Ohio House Minority Leader Emilia Strong Sykes also criticized the program as a "grave misuse of money."

"Using millions of dollars in relief funds in a drawing is a grave misuse of money that could be going to respond to this ongoing crisis. Ohioans deserve better than this. I do hope people continue to get the vaccine and help our state reach herd immunity so our economy and way of life can thrive again," she said in a statement.

I agree the money could likely go towards better things but apparently people in OHIO are only motivated by a lottery.

[Blackhawk]

"We don't need Governor DeWine giving us an award for getting a shot like when we were kids."

Then have you considered acting like adults?

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Went out shopping at a few places this weekend for the first time since the new CDC guidelines. They’re clearly having an effect: I saw many more unmasked people in stores where previously almost everyone had been masked. And in Walmart I saw more unmasked people than masked. I am going to out on a limb and say not everyone I saw unmasked was vaccinated...

[gbasden]

Went out shopping at a few places this weekend for the first time since the new CDC guidelines. They’re clearly having an effect: I saw many more unmasked people in stores where previously almost everyone had been masked. And in Walmart I saw more unmasked people than masked. I am going to out on a limb and say not everyone I saw unmasked was vaccinated...

It's interesting what the difference in location makes. I was out yesterday at the grocery store and Costco, and mask compliance was darned near 100% yet. After not getting sick at all this winter, I'm probably going to continue wearing a mask to do crowded shopping.