Touche.
Racism in America (with data)
Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus
- stimpy
- Posts: 6162
- Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:04 pm
- LordMortis
- Posts: 71490
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Mmmm nothing like a good Macedonian nut cookie straight from Hawaii.
- Alefroth
- Posts: 9156
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
- Location: Bellingham WA
Re: Racism in America (with data)
If OO has taught me anything, it's read to the end of the thread before replying because someone has probably already said what I was going to say. Why is it always hep, though?
- Zarathud
- Posts: 16957
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
Re: Racism in America (with data)
What did Trump achieve beyond the excuse to be openly racist? Tax cuts? Judges? Stiggint?
I can’t see the appeal.
I can’t see the appeal.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
- Blackhawk
- Posts: 45681
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
- Location: Southwest Indiana
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Stimpy - if you ever wonder why people respond to you the way they do, look back at this thread. If you didn't come in here with a chip on your shoulder, insulting people and looking for a fight, you did a great imitation.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
- $iljanus
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 13888
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 pm
- Location: New England...or under your bed
Re: Racism in America (with data)
The judge thing is a big draw for many supporters with judicial appointments made in the lower courts as well as the Supreme Court. Especially since they're judges for life.
Also don't underestimate the appeal of being able to be openly racist now that minorities are being "uppity".
"Who's going to tell him that the job he's currently seeking might just be one of those Black jobs?"
-Michelle Obama 2024 Democratic Convention
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
-Michelle Obama 2024 Democratic Convention
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
- coopasonic
- Posts: 21098
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:43 pm
- Location: Dallas-ish
Re: Racism in America (with data)
99% McConnell, 1% Trump$iljanus wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:15 amThe judge thing is a big draw for many supporters with judicial appointments made in the lower courts as well as the Supreme Court. Especially since they're judges for life.
Also don't underestimate the appeal of being able to be openly racist now that minorities are being "uppity".
-Coop
Black Lives Matter
Black Lives Matter
- $iljanus
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 13888
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 pm
- Location: New England...or under your bed
Re: Racism in America (with data)
He's the man behind the curtain. But you need a good face for the insurrection which Trump fills nicely.coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:18 am99% McConnell, 1% Trump$iljanus wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:15 amThe judge thing is a big draw for many supporters with judicial appointments made in the lower courts as well as the Supreme Court. Especially since they're judges for life.
Also don't underestimate the appeal of being able to be openly racist now that minorities are being "uppity".
But yeah, McConnell is the Palpatine of our times.
"Who's going to tell him that the job he's currently seeking might just be one of those Black jobs?"
-Michelle Obama 2024 Democratic Convention
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
-Michelle Obama 2024 Democratic Convention
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
- AWS260
- Posts: 12839
- Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:51 pm
- Location: Brooklyn
Re: Racism in America (with data)
After a whole lot of public pressure, the UNC board offered her tenure. She decided to take a position at another university.Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 6:36 pm NBC News
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill's journalism school is not offering Nikole Hannah-Jones, the Pulitzer Prize-winning creator of The New York Times' "1619 Project," a tenured professorship after facing pressure from conservatives.
NC Policy Watch first reported that the UNC-Chapel Hill's board of trustees had decided not to approve tenure for Hannah-Jones at the Hussman School of Journalism and Media. According to the 19th, she is the first person in this role at UNC-Chapel Hill to be denied tenure by the board.
The university announced last month that Hannah-Jones would join the school as the Knight Chair in Race and Investigative Journalism in July. Conservatives quickly condemned the university's decision to offer Hannah-Jones the tenure-track position.
...
Despite the controversy, Hussman dean Susan King said she was "delighted" to welcome Hannah-Jones as an educator.
"While I am disappointed that the appointment is without tenure, there is no doubt in anyone’s mind that she will be a star faculty member," King said in a statement obtained by NBC News.
Her statement on the process is pretty damning.
Many people, all with the best of intentions, have said that if I walk away from UNC, I will have let those who opposed me win. But I do not want to win someone else’s game. It is not my job to heal this university, to force the reforms necessary to ensure the Board of Trustees reflects the actual population of the school and the state, or to ensure that the university leadership lives up to the promises it made to reckon with its legacy of racism and injustice.
For too long, powerful people have expected the people they have mistreated and marginalized to sacrifice themselves to make things whole. The burden of working for racial justice is laid on the very people bearing the brunt of the injustice, and not the powerful people who maintain it. I say to you: I refuse.
In the case of my tenure, the university has, begrudgingly, done the absolute minimum. In a split vote, it did what it was supposed to have done 7 months ago and, in doing so, many believe the university has resolved the issue. It has not.
- Holman
- Posts: 29703
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: Racism in America (with data)
She's taking a tenured position at her alma mater, Howard University. She'll be in DC and much more connected to the heart of media culture, which is what her work and the job is all about.
UNC loses again.
UNC loses again.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
-
- Posts: 24795
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Racism in America (with data)
The whole thing is absolutely disgusting and worse the racists involved are probably clapping each other on the back because they chased her away.
Howard is definitely richer for it but I still groaned because that is what the racists wanted to happen. I saw it over and over in public comments about this farce. "Why not teach at Howard or Xavier. They'll accept your 'hate' there". I get her decision and don't begrudge it at all but this was not a fine moment in any shape or form.
- LordMortis
- Posts: 71490
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Wow. One would hope that statement alone is enough to move mountains, but as she says, they moved begrudgingly to do the minimum only after arm twisting. One would also hope that would be stain and those in power would shift but that might be too much to hope for.AWS260 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:26 pm
After a whole lot of public pressure, the UNC board offered her tenure. She decided to take a position at another university.
Her statement on the process is pretty damning.Many people, all with the best of intentions, have said that if I walk away from UNC, I will have let those who opposed me win. But I do not want to win someone else’s game. It is not my job to heal this university, to force the reforms necessary to ensure the Board of Trustees reflects the actual population of the school and the state, or to ensure that the university leadership lives up to the promises it made to reckon with its legacy of racism and injustice.
For too long, powerful people have expected the people they have mistreated and marginalized to sacrifice themselves to make things whole. The burden of working for racial justice is laid on the very people bearing the brunt of the injustice, and not the powerful people who maintain it. I say to you: I refuse.
In the case of my tenure, the university has, begrudgingly, done the absolute minimum. In a split vote, it did what it was supposed to have done 7 months ago and, in doing so, many believe the university has resolved the issue. It has not.
I'm glad she's able to opt out, make a statement, and find success/engulfment elsewhere.
- AWS260
- Posts: 12839
- Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:51 pm
- Location: Brooklyn
- Holman
- Posts: 29703
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: Racism in America (with data)
My bad. I thought I'd read the opposite.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
-
- Posts: 24795
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Racism in America (with data)
So as it ever was.
- Smoove_B
- Posts: 55930
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
- Location: Kaer Morhen
Re: Racism in America (with data)
From Texas:
This feels like a giant red flag moment.Public schools in Texas are one step closer to no longer being required to teach about various American civil rights movements in social studies classes.
Bloomberg reports that on Friday, the state Senate voted 18-4 to pass Senate Bill 3, which drops requirements for teachers to include lessons on Cesar Chavez, Susan B. Anthony, the history of Native Americans, the writings of Martin Luther King, Jr. and other figures and documents in their curriculums.
This comes after Gov. Greg Abbott previously signed a bill that banned teachers from discussing critical race theory and the 1619 Project, while also dictating how they should teach about current events in their classrooms. The idea behind this new bill is to more explicitly define what can and can’t be taught.
According to Bloomberg, it would also prevent teachers from speaking about current events or controversial issues without “giving deference to any one perspective.”
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- hepcat
- Posts: 53842
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20502
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Racism in America (with data)
What do you think drove the Neanderthals to extinction?
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
- Unagi
- Posts: 28032
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Racism in America (with data)
It is believed that critical species theory is what doomed the dinosaurs. Addressing reptile privilege eventually led to the rise of the mammals.
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20502
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Yes we need to adjust our language as we become more aware of the harm that can be done by words. To me it is all about context. If a black speaker at a NAACP conference said: Let's call a spade a spade, would there be outrage?
I remember when Greg Gumball said a (black) football player had "running from the police speed," some found it offensive. But anyone runs like hell from the police. Had the player been white would there have been a reaction?
If you were referring to a medieval battle and used the description "a chink in the armor," no one would bat an eye, but per Wikipedia:
You need to consider context as well as the actual words you use.
I remember when Greg Gumball said a (black) football player had "running from the police speed," some found it offensive. But anyone runs like hell from the police. Had the player been white would there have been a reaction?
If you were referring to a medieval battle and used the description "a chink in the armor," no one would bat an eye, but per Wikipedia:
I personally doubt the guy meant that as a racial slur, but there is no excuse for allowing that in the written word.An [ESPN] editor used the phrase as a headline on the company's web site in February 2012; the headline was titled "Chink In The Armor", and referred specifically to Lin.[5] The headline was a reference to Lin's unsuccessful game against the New Orleans Hornets, suggesting that Jeremy Lin's popularity and winning streak were weakening.[6] While ESPN has used the phrase "chink in the armor" on its website over 3,000 times before, its usage in this instance was considered offensive because it directly referred to a person of Asian descent.[7] Many viewed the usage of the phrase as a double entendre.[5] Slate called it "a bad choice of words at best and a smirky, passive aggressive racist dig at worst".[8] ESPN quickly removed the headline, apologized, and said it was conducting an internal review.[9] The editor, Anthony Federico, denied any idiomatic usage, saying "This had nothing to do with me being cute or punny ... I'm so sorry that I offended people. I'm so sorry if I offended Jeremy."[5] Nevertheless, he was fired.[5]
You need to consider context as well as the actual words you use.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
-
- Posts: 24795
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Racism in America (with data)
I agree that context matters but but often the nuance is not important. It is woke for the woke God.
One anecdote of several I could share is that I saw a person run out of managing a team for angrily yelling 'guys listen' at a group of roller derby people arguing amongst themselves during a timeout in a tough game. Someone took offense since they believed that he was belittling a trans player by calling them a guy. That coach was one of the kindest people I know and some people defended to the point that it caused massive division where several players quit. And I've seen similar like 10 times. There is a toxic culture out there on the left around this.
We have also seen this across the public space over the last few years. So much of this new cancel culture rests on a premise that bad intent is the default. IMO it is a direct consequence of our low trust culture in America. So yes context matters but there is something really dark happening all around us. Again IMO the darkness is not only on the right. It just is *way* worse there.
One anecdote of several I could share is that I saw a person run out of managing a team for angrily yelling 'guys listen' at a group of roller derby people arguing amongst themselves during a timeout in a tough game. Someone took offense since they believed that he was belittling a trans player by calling them a guy. That coach was one of the kindest people I know and some people defended to the point that it caused massive division where several players quit. And I've seen similar like 10 times. There is a toxic culture out there on the left around this.
We have also seen this across the public space over the last few years. So much of this new cancel culture rests on a premise that bad intent is the default. IMO it is a direct consequence of our low trust culture in America. So yes context matters but there is something really dark happening all around us. Again IMO the darkness is not only on the right. It just is *way* worse there.
Last edited by malchior on Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Kurth
- Posts: 6366
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
Re: Racism in America (with data)
I get that, and the Lin example is obviously cringe inducing and uncomfortable. Even if the author had no ill intent, even though it’s perfectly innocuous in one particular context, the word is a slur in many, many contexts, so common sense and decency argues for being extremely careful when using it or just using a different word or phrase entirely.
But, what about the reverse? When a phrase “call a spade a spade” from the Capital Riot thread, for instance, is innocuous in most contexts but has picked up a racial connotation in a few contexts (or has a racist origin), does that call for dropping the phrase?
Did you know referencing unwanted comments or a disturbance from “the peanut gallery” was racist? How about the phrase “long time, no see”? A quick google search tells me these are among 6 Common Phrases You Didn’t Know Were Racist - So Let’s Stop Using Them Immediately.
But, what about the reverse? When a phrase “call a spade a spade” from the Capital Riot thread, for instance, is innocuous in most contexts but has picked up a racial connotation in a few contexts (or has a racist origin), does that call for dropping the phrase?
Did you know referencing unwanted comments or a disturbance from “the peanut gallery” was racist? How about the phrase “long time, no see”? A quick google search tells me these are among 6 Common Phrases You Didn’t Know Were Racist - So Let’s Stop Using Them Immediately.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20502
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Racism in America (with data)
I knew about the "Gypsy" one, but the other top two seem pretty marginal. "Long time, no see" is just a shorthand way of speaking, I hardly think all abbreviations should be condemned. I wonder if anyone takes offense to "nosebleed seats." Maybe Scandinavians? And who knew that hepcat was anti-semitic?
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
- LawBeefaroni
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 55867
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
- Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Context is vital.Kurth wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:09 am I get that, and the Lin example is obviously cringe inducing and uncomfortable. Even if the author had no ill intent, even though it’s perfectly innocuous in one particular context, the word is a slur in many, many contexts, so common sense and decency argues for being extremely careful when using it or just using a different word or phrase entirely.
But, what about the reverse? When a phrase “call a spade a spade” from the Capital Riot thread, for instance, is innocuous in most contexts but has picked up a racial connotation in a few contexts (or has a racist origin), does that call for dropping the phrase?
Did you know referencing unwanted comments or a disturbance from “the peanut gallery” was racist? How about the phrase “long time, no see”? A quick google search tells me these are among 6 Common Phrases You Didn’t Know Were Racist - So Let’s Stop Using Them Immediately.
My post was about someone who used the phrase "Let's call an ace an ace" when negatively talking about Juneteenth. It's a calculated dog whistle. "Spade a spade" is marginal. "Ace an ace" is evocative of "black as the ace of spades" since it swaps one for the other in a strange new idiom.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
- Kurth
- Posts: 6366
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Honestly, I still don’t understand. Is it a calculated dog whistle because they are mocking sensitivities about the “call a spade a spade” thing by using a very unusual (I’ve never heard someone say “let’s call an ace an ace”) phrase instead?LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:26 pmContext is vital.Kurth wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:09 am I get that, and the Lin example is obviously cringe inducing and uncomfortable. Even if the author had no ill intent, even though it’s perfectly innocuous in one particular context, the word is a slur in many, many contexts, so common sense and decency argues for being extremely careful when using it or just using a different word or phrase entirely.
But, what about the reverse? When a phrase “call a spade a spade” from the Capital Riot thread, for instance, is innocuous in most contexts but has picked up a racial connotation in a few contexts (or has a racist origin), does that call for dropping the phrase?
Did you know referencing unwanted comments or a disturbance from “the peanut gallery” was racist? How about the phrase “long time, no see”? A quick google search tells me these are among 6 Common Phrases You Didn’t Know Were Racist - So Let’s Stop Using Them Immediately.
My post was about someone who used the phrase "Let's call an ace an ace" when negatively talking about Juneteenth. It's a calculated dog whistle. "Spade a spade" is marginal. "Ace an ace" is evocative of "black as the ace of spades" since it swaps one for the other in a strange new idiom.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
- Unagi
- Posts: 28032
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Racism in America (with data)
I think that’s about right.
I imagine to a deeply racist ear/mind, the ‘call and Ace an Ace’ gets turned into “you mean a Spade!” (like most of our’s reaction to the never heard before phrase). But then they go on to think how he’s not allowed to say “spade” here because he’s talking about Juneteenth and is forced to stay PC.
And in that moment they know they are of like mind with the speaker.
I imagine to a deeply racist ear/mind, the ‘call and Ace an Ace’ gets turned into “you mean a Spade!” (like most of our’s reaction to the never heard before phrase). But then they go on to think how he’s not allowed to say “spade” here because he’s talking about Juneteenth and is forced to stay PC.
And in that moment they know they are of like mind with the speaker.
- Isgrimnur
- Posts: 84640
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
- Location: Chookity pok
- Contact:
- Holman
- Posts: 29703
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: Racism in America (with data)
As it happens, "Call a spade and spade" originates in a completely non-racist context. Per Wikipedia (although I've seen mention of this in more scholarly sources), the phrase comes into English in the 16th century as a translation from Greek. The "spade" in the phrase is an old-fashioned term for a shovel or other digging tool.
However, I don't believe this makes the idiom OK for modern use. Language is always changing and acquiring new connotations, and "spade" has been ruined by racist usage. We lose nothing by avoiding the phrase.
It's the same story with "niggardly." Etymologically, the word has nothing to do with our N-word (and in fact doesn't even derive from Latin, as "negro" does), but that still doesn't mean it's fine to use it. Context is always contemporary. Since there's no way to employ it without reminding people of the slur, it should be dropped.
However, I don't believe this makes the idiom OK for modern use. Language is always changing and acquiring new connotations, and "spade" has been ruined by racist usage. We lose nothing by avoiding the phrase.
It's the same story with "niggardly." Etymologically, the word has nothing to do with our N-word (and in fact doesn't even derive from Latin, as "negro" does), but that still doesn't mean it's fine to use it. Context is always contemporary. Since there's no way to employ it without reminding people of the slur, it should be dropped.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
-
- Posts: 24795
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Racism in America (with data)
I mean in a world where people assume the worst of others this makes sense but even then it still is sad that we need to tip toe through our conversations in the 'public square'.
- Holman
- Posts: 29703
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: Racism in America (with data)
I would say that there's no longer any "innocent" use of something like "niggardly." If you're not aware that it can't *not* evoke the slur, that's on you.
Obviously this doesn't apply retroactively. The word appears in Shakespeare, but there's no racial context for it there.
Obviously this doesn't apply retroactively. The word appears in Shakespeare, but there's no racial context for it there.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20502
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Especially when the path is littered with landmines.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
-
- Posts: 24795
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Yup. I get it. I just think it's a sad reflection on the ultra low levels of trust in our broken society.Holman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:14 pm I would say that there's no longer any "innocent" use of something like "niggardly." If you're not aware that it can't *not* evoke the slur, that's on you.
Obviously this doesn't apply retroactively. The word appears in Shakespeare, but there's no racial context for it there.
- hepcat
- Posts: 53842
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: Racism in America (with data)
In rural Ohio, where I grew up, it’s still used quite commonly.
Lord of His Pants
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20502
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Racism in America (with data)
I don't think they were referring to that type of "usage.'"
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
- hepcat
- Posts: 53842
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: Racism in America (with data)
I think you misunderstood me. I was responding to “old fashioned term”. Where I’m from the word spade (as in digging tool) is pretty common. This is an anecdotal aside, not a racial argument.
Lord of His Pants
- Jaymon
- Posts: 3056
- Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:51 pm
Re: Racism in America (with data)
I'm nearly 50, yet I had no idea that "call a spade a spade" was an ethnic slur. I know the phrase exists, but I have read a lot of old timey books like shakespear and dickens. Does that mean I am uneducated and racially insensitive because I don't know the modern context?, or that I am an innocent who is rarely present in situations where slurs are being used?
Bunnies like beer because its made from hops.
- LawBeefaroni
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 55867
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
- Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything
Re: Racism in America (with data)
It's not a slur in its origins. It has, however, taken on some baggage.Jaymon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:46 am I'm nearly 50, yet I had no idea that "call a spade a spade" was an ethnic slur. I know the phrase exists, but I have read a lot of old timey books like shakespear and dickens. Does that mean I am uneducated and racially insensitive because I don't know the modern context?, or that I am an innocent who is rarely present in situations where slurs are being used?
If you've ever heard the word "spade" used in a derogatory manner, the idiom is forever changed.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
- Blackhawk
- Posts: 45681
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
- Location: Southwest Indiana
Re: Racism in America (with data)
To call a spade a spade, 'negro' used to just be a descriptive (it's just the Spanish/Portugese word for 'black'), then that changed. Then black became unacceptable until people realized that not all dark-skinned people were African or American, making the terminology impossible to actually use (I once pissed off a PoC by calling him African American when they were a native Cuban.) Once again Black (now a proper noun for good reason) is acceptable.
My point: Language changes. What a word used to mean doesn't matter; awful doesn't mean 'wonderful', and 'terrific' doesn't mean scary. What matters is what a word means now. And when there is doubt, you fall back on two things: What's the least likely to cause harm, and what the people affected by the term think about it. Political angles shouldn't be a factor when it comes to a question of whether something hurts people.
But at the same time, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt. It takes time for changed meanings to spread, and if you've lived long enough, someone may not realize that some of the idioms they've picked up have other meanings. In some cases, it isn't always clear what's appropriate (see Oriental) such that the meaning - an implication - is still in flux. Someone who drops a changed term without any overt hostile intent should be given that benefit of the doubt. It's fine to point out the issue, but not to blame.
My point: Language changes. What a word used to mean doesn't matter; awful doesn't mean 'wonderful', and 'terrific' doesn't mean scary. What matters is what a word means now. And when there is doubt, you fall back on two things: What's the least likely to cause harm, and what the people affected by the term think about it. Political angles shouldn't be a factor when it comes to a question of whether something hurts people.
But at the same time, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt. It takes time for changed meanings to spread, and if you've lived long enough, someone may not realize that some of the idioms they've picked up have other meanings. In some cases, it isn't always clear what's appropriate (see Oriental) such that the meaning - an implication - is still in flux. Someone who drops a changed term without any overt hostile intent should be given that benefit of the doubt. It's fine to point out the issue, but not to blame.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
- Kurth
- Posts: 6366
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
Re: Racism in America (with data)
It's also tough sometimes to draw a line and pinpoint when a word or phrase has picked up enough baggage to make it toxic. I'm with Jaymon above: Before this discussion, I'd never once heard the word "spade" used as a racial slur. It's always just been a small shovel (usually for gardening) to me.
I wonder what percentage of people are aware that there's any racial baggage associated with "spade." My guess is, it's pretty small, at least based on Google searches.
I wonder what percentage of people are aware that there's any racial baggage associated with "spade." My guess is, it's pretty small, at least based on Google searches.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳