The Biden Presidency Thread

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Smoove_B
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, seriously. You could pick any number of blunders from the last 20+ years, but this one? Might be the topper. They're all seemingly reacting like they had no idea it was happening. It just mysteriously appeared from nowhere and no one had any idea how it was going to go ~6 weeks ago. Who could have seen it coming? We're going to need to form some committees and talk about our options now.

Meanwhile 26+ states immediately implemented bans, some effective hours after the decision others will go into effect in 30 days.

Zero excuse for this and to hear that he's also against adding more Justices to the court and still in favor of the filibuster? Beyond out of touch. I get that he's better than a 2nd term of Trump, but it would seem all we did was delay the inevitable.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by YellowKing »

Guessing it's hard to get motivated to change the world (or defend the one you have), when you're pushing 80. This goes not just for Biden, but for a lot of Democratic leadership.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Daehawk »

So is Biden going to decriminalize marijuana while he has the chance?
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

YellowKing wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:31 am Guessing it's hard to get motivated to change the world (or defend the one you have), when you're pushing 80. This goes not just for Biden, but for a lot of Democratic leadership.
Normally I would be right there with you, bc I’ve long harped on his age as an issue even before he was elected.

Except the Trump example messes that argument up. He got quite a lot of offensive maneuvering in during his accursed term.

The more important question might be how much energy (and dedication) your minions have. Energy levels of the President may be more important symbolically and for appearances.

I don’t think age hurt Trump at all, but seems to constantly be plaguing Biden.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Jaymann »

Someday history could be looking back on Biden as the last great President.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

“Great”?! Hardly, dude. Unless I’m not picking up on something subtle.

“Last President” I could buy. Would not be surprised at all if Trump’s first action as leader is to rename the office title to something more his style. He’s probably always coveted a cooler title like ‘Great Leader’ or ‘the Chosen One’.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by malchior »

Seriously. I'd rate that the chance of Biden being recognized as a great President is fairly low. Let's hope he turns it around.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by LordMortis »

That could turn on a dime, depending on how/if Ukraine comes to completion while he is president. Ukraine could change food and energy prices overnight and suddenly everything changes in the mind of the average American. They could take new stock of who they are and what they are supporting and give Biden authority to make changes. Of course Biden would have to make changes even if/should Ukraine defeat Putin while Biden is sitting on the Oval Office.

I can dream.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Jaymann »

My point is if we get a series of DiSantis and his ilk in a a downward spiral of Republicans refusing to relinquish power, and complete erosion of voting rights and human rights, Biden could be viewed as the good old days.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by pr0ner »

Daehawk wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:27 am So is Biden going to decriminalize marijuana while he has the chance?
Lol.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by pr0ner »

Jaymann wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:04 pm Someday history could be looking back on Biden as the last great President.
Also lol.
Jaymann wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:48 pm My point is if we get a series of DiSantis and his ilk in a a downward spiral of Republicans refusing to relinquish power, and complete erosion of voting rights and human rights, Biden could be viewed as the good old days.
Viewing Biden as "the good old days" won't make him "the last great president".
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by stimpy »

Jaymann wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:04 pm Someday history could be looking back on Biden as the last great President.
You have to be kidding.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Smoove_B wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:38 pm

Meanwhile 26+ states immediately implemented bans, some effective hours after the decision others will go into effect in 30 days.

Trigger laws were being drawn up as soon as the original Roe decision came down. Those weren't immediate bans, they were decades old bans.

Another reason thet "no one saw this coming" is laughable.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, I'd mentioned that - they were waiting for what had been promised and they made sure when it was stated, they could immediately subjugate.

In terms of Biden, this seems to be an excellent summary:


Biden will be remembered for his accomplishments: saving the fillbuster, keeping the Supreme Court at 9 members, and getting people back to work without masks, upgraded ventilation, paid sick leave or any treatment (for uninsured workers) during an airborne pandemic.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Drazzil »

Smoove_B wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:55 pm Yeah, I'd mentioned that - they were waiting for what had been promised and they made sure when it was stated, they could immediately subjugate.

In terms of Biden, this seems to be an excellent summary:


Biden will be remembered for his accomplishments: saving the fillbuster, keeping the Supreme Court at 9 members, and getting people back to work without masks, upgraded ventilation, paid sick leave or any treatment (for uninsured workers) during an airborne pandemic.
Biden is either Buchannan, or Gorbachev. The dude who should have known better, who had a lot of chances to halt or reverse our destruction but failed.

I think... If there is a history written about this time period, The Democrats and everyone all the way back to Obama will be spoken of much more damningly then the people who perpetrated a fascist coup.

Or to compare it much more viscerally, they are the policemen who wait outside the school while the gunmen murder the students.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Alefroth »

Drazzil wrote: I think... If there is a history written about this time period, The Democrats and everyone all the way back to Obama will be spoken of much more damningly then the people who perpetrated a fascist coup.
Depends on who writes the history, doesn't it?
Drazzil wrote: Or to compare it much more viscerally, they are the policemen who wait outside the school while the gunmen murder the students.
I saw that meme today too.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Zarathud »

Wrong again. Hitler is written up damningly, not the Weimar Republic. The atrocities are more strongly condemned than those who couldn’t stop it.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by malchior »

The Hill

Poll indicates 71% of Americans don't want Biden to run for re-election. I don't how seriously this can be taken this far out. However, this explains why Biden is constantly battling questions about running.
Seven in 10 Americans say they do not want President Biden to run for a second term, according to a new poll that comes as Biden’s approval numbers remain low and his party braces for losses this November.

A Harvard CAPS–Harris Poll survey shared exclusively with The Hill found that 71 percent of respondents polled do not think Biden should run for a second term, compared to 29 percent who say he should run.

Among the contingent of respondents who believe the president should not run, 45 percent said Biden should not make another bid because he is a bad president, while about one-third of respondents said he is too old and about one-quarter said because it is time for a change.

“President Biden may want to run again but the voters say ‘no’ to the idea of a second term, panning the job he is doing as president. Only 30 percent of Democrats would even vote for him in a Democratic presidential primary,” Mark Penn, the co-director of the Harvard CAPS–Harris Poll survey, said.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Drazzil »

Zarathud wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:04 pm Wrong again. Hitler is written up damningly, not the Weimar Republic. The atrocities are more strongly condemned than those who couldn’t stop it.
He CAN stop it. He has the tools. Just no will to use them. As laughable as it sounds, Republicans EVERY single one at the national level have done crimes. A lot of the Democrats too. Sinema and Manchin are neck deep in insider trading scandals and could be blackmailed or even just outright arrested for what they have done in their private lives. The GOP could be unraveled with RICO laws if Biden had the balls to use the legal system for Democratic ends.

Say tomorrow Biden tells his AG to arrest and detain half the Republican party and some of the Democratic leadership too. Hell I'm pretty sure Feinstein could be removed for reason of her mental state. I'm saying we arrest them, take them somewhere secure, clam up about where they're being held and then search for evidence and make a case after the fact. When Biden's team digs up the immensity of what's gone down, present the case to the American public, THEN have the trial for all of them.


Less then ideal? ABSOLUTELY. Dubiously legal, yep. Absolutely necessary? I would say yes. Lincoln did an awful lot of extra legal stuff during the first civil war. Do people care today? Nope. So did Wilson. Do people care? Hardly.

I understand that as a lawyer there are about a hundred reasons why this wouldn't work *legally*. What I'm saying, is do what Lincoln or Wilson did. Do the thing, sprinkle some legal jabberwocky on top of it and then make all the deep systemic changes that this country needs and THEN and only then restore things back to the new normal.

Because from where I'm standing, either this, or something like this is going to need to be done if we're going to have a recognizable country in a decade.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by hepcat »

Drazzil wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:03 pm. Dubiously legal.
I REALLY need to get you a dictionary that isn’t missing the D pages.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Drazzil »

Zarathud wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:04 pm Wrong again. Hitler is written up damningly, not the Weimar Republic. The atrocities are more strongly condemned than those who couldn’t stop it.
No sir, PLENTY of stuff has been written by historians painting the people who allowed Hitler to rise to power. All of it is damning. The judges who didn't throw the book at him for the putsch, the politicians who greased his way to power in the name of factionalism or keeping the socialists, or the communists at bay. The Plutocrats who thought they could use Hitler to keep government dysfunctional and keep it from making needed changes. It's ALL there if you look for it.

People knew what Hitler was, because he couldn't stop telling others about what he wanted to do. It was all in the open.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by hepcat »

Just when I think things are bleak, I come here and read some political diatribe from Drazzil and I realize things could be much, much worse were his tyoe in charge.

So thanks for cheering me up!
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by $iljanus »

Drazzil wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:03 pm
Zarathud wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:04 pm Wrong again. Hitler is written up damningly, not the Weimar Republic. The atrocities are more strongly condemned than those who couldn’t stop it.
He CAN stop it. He has the tools. Just no will to use them. As laughable as it sounds, Republicans EVERY single one at the national level have done crimes. A lot of the Democrats too. Sinema and Manchin are neck deep in insider trading scandals and could be blackmailed or even just outright arrested for what they have done in their private lives. The GOP could be unraveled with RICO laws if Biden had the balls to use the legal system for Democratic ends.

Say tomorrow Biden tells his AG to arrest and detain half the Republican party and some of the Democratic leadership too. Hell I'm pretty sure Feinstein could be removed for reason of her mental state. I'm saying we arrest them, take them somewhere secure, clam up about where they're being held and then search for evidence and make a case after the fact. When Biden's team digs up the immensity of what's gone down, present the case to the American public, THEN have the trial for all of them.


Less then ideal? ABSOLUTELY. Dubiously legal, yep. Absolutely necessary? I would say yes. Lincoln did an awful lot of extra legal stuff during the first civil war. Do people care today? Nope. So did Wilson. Do people care? Hardly.

I understand that as a lawyer there are about a hundred reasons why this wouldn't work *legally*. What I'm saying, is do what Lincoln or Wilson did. Do the thing, sprinkle some legal jabberwocky on top of it and then make all the deep systemic changes that this country needs and THEN and only then restore things back to the new normal.

Because from where I'm standing, either this, or something like this is going to need to be done if we're going to have a recognizable country in a decade.
I’m down for general demonstrations, maybe some strikes, and pressing for more political boldness beyond spam for donations to the Dem party.

Suspending Habeus Corpus and going all in on rendition to a domestic black site, umm not too down for that. I think the country really started to go to shit when everyone started watching 24 and wondering WWJBD? (what would Jack Bauer do)
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by hepcat »

A radio station in Chicago plays old radio shows from the 40s and 50s late at night. Once, when I had insomnia, I caught an old Superman show.

…he made Jack Bauer look like Mother Theresa.

While trying to track down a suspected bank robber, Superman terrorized the suspect’s innocent, Asian butler by flying him into the air and threatening to hurl him to Earth, then told him he’d be back to “finish the job” if he had lied to him. This was effing Superman! During that period, this was acceptable behavior, I guess.

My point is, this country has been even worse. We do NOT want to go back to the “good ol’ days”, that’s for sure.
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The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Zarathud »

Drazzil wrote:People knew what Hitler was, because he couldn't stop telling others about what he wanted to do. It was all in the open.
No, they didn’t. You assume all sorts of things are true and self-evident and easy that are paranoid and speculative and difficult to prove.
So, while the 1933 TIME cover shows that it would be reasonable to expect Americans in the early 1930s to know about the persecution and prejudice at the heart of Hitler’s government — and to then follow the news of the mass murder to which it would lead within a decade — it’s still no myth to say that Americans, especially those who personally witnessed the liberation of the camps, were shocked to discover the extent and cruelty of what was happening in Europe.
. TIME

Your proposal for the Democrats would readily be taken up by Republicans who would do it more horribly and effectively — and claiming justification. But you want bloodshed because you think you have nothing to lose. You would be wrong, but you’ll never recognize it, Drazzil.
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“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Drazzil »

Zarathud wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:03 pm
Drazzil wrote:People knew what Hitler was, because he couldn't stop telling others about what he wanted to do. It was all in the open.
No, they didn’t. You assume all sorts of things are true and self-evident and easy that are paranoid and speculative and difficult to prove.
So, while the 1933 TIME cover shows that it would be reasonable to expect Americans in the early 1930s to know about the persecution and prejudice at the heart of Hitler’s government — and to then follow the news of the mass murder to which it would lead within a decade — it’s still no myth to say that Americans, especially those who personally witnessed the liberation of the camps, were shocked to discover the extent and cruelty of what was happening in Europe.
. TIME

Your proposal for the Democrats would readily be taken up by Republicans who would do it more horribly and effectively — and claiming justification. But you want bloodshed because you think you have nothing to lose. You would be wrong, but you’ll never recognize it, Drazzil.

Hope you're right, for both our sakes.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Drazzil »

$iljanus wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:29 pm
Drazzil wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:03 pm
Zarathud wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:04 pm Wrong again. Hitler is written up damningly, not the Weimar Republic. The atrocities are more strongly condemned than those who couldn’t stop it.
He CAN stop it. He has the tools. Just no will to use them. As laughable as it sounds, Republicans EVERY single one at the national level have done crimes. A lot of the Democrats too. Sinema and Manchin are neck deep in insider trading scandals and could be blackmailed or even just outright arrested for what they have done in their private lives. The GOP could be unraveled with RICO laws if Biden had the balls to use the legal system for Democratic ends.

Say tomorrow Biden tells his AG to arrest and detain half the Republican party and some of the Democratic leadership too. Hell I'm pretty sure Feinstein could be removed for reason of her mental state. I'm saying we arrest them, take them somewhere secure, clam up about where they're being held and then search for evidence and make a case after the fact. When Biden's team digs up the immensity of what's gone down, present the case to the American public, THEN have the trial for all of them.


Less then ideal? ABSOLUTELY. Dubiously legal, yep. Absolutely necessary? I would say yes. Lincoln did an awful lot of extra legal stuff during the first civil war. Do people care today? Nope. So did Wilson. Do people care? Hardly.

I understand that as a lawyer there are about a hundred reasons why this wouldn't work *legally*. What I'm saying, is do what Lincoln or Wilson did. Do the thing, sprinkle some legal jabberwocky on top of it and then make all the deep systemic changes that this country needs and THEN and only then restore things back to the new normal.

Because from where I'm standing, either this, or something like this is going to need to be done if we're going to have a recognizable country in a decade.
I’m down for general demonstrations, maybe some strikes, and pressing for more political boldness beyond spam for donations to the Dem party.

Suspending Habeus Corpus and going all in on rendition to a domestic black site, umm not too down for that. I think the country really started to go to shit when everyone started watching 24 and wondering WWJBD? (what would Jack Bauer do)
Wake up man. The Dem's have about a six month window to make real changes here. If they show up with a hat full of nothing come November do you think people are going to show up to vote in their jerrymandered rotten boroughs because the appeasenik Democrats e mail bomb and call them and say.

"This time things'll be different....pinky swear!" THIS time we'll protect a womans right to choose and protect you from the R's!

It was fuckin telling when like a few days after Biden took office and he went on a zoom call with civil tights leaders in Georgia and told the very prople who GOT HIM ELECTED that they would just have to sit down and be quiet and wait for the voting rights bill to come to them in good time.

Only the Democrats didn't. No big infrastructure project, no civil rights bill, ROE died on the table, rampant inflation on the count of massive bailouts to the stonk market and commodities prices through the roof because now the 1% has all this free govt money to play with.

We have one last goddamn card to play left, the Democrats got us here and we have a single lifeline and a rapidly shrinking amount of time to play it in.

Because whatever damage the Republicans plan on doing, would be far FAR worse then Biden playing fast and loose with the rules.

But yeah. Keep thinking that the system will magically right itself, keep believing that we can organize, picket or protest our way out. Ohh! I know what, maybe a strongly worded letter to the GOP..

Face facts. Either we move now with drastic measures or the R's will lock it down till our country erupts in somali style civil war. As you say.. . Look at the maps.

People are TIRED of showing up and voting for nothing. Hell I know I am
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Zarathud »

It took Republicans 50 years to overturn Roe and lose control of their party to the extremists. Anyone who thinks Biden is going to turn it around in a week is unrealistic and wishful thinking. 6 months might see the market start to self-correct the trade backlog and pent-up demand (due to inflation and gas prices, all expected results of the pandemic if you were thinking ahead).

It's going to take a sustained grassroots fight to take back control of the Red States, and combat the poison of FOX News. I've heard a comedian podcast describe Alex Jones as "workshopping" his propaganda in the same manner that a comedian works out a new comedy bit. There's someone out there who can do the same -- and better -- for liberals. And while I like Joe Biden, he's never going to be that guy. And it's better that some young, motivated voices organize and come up with a long-term strategy that they'll be around to execute and iterate on for the next 2 generations if necessary.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Drazzil »

Zarathud wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:39 pm It took Republicans 50 years to overturn Roe and lose control of their party to the extremists. Anyone who thinks Biden is going to turn it around in a week is unrealistic and wishful thinking. 6 months might see the market start to self-correct the trade backlog and pent-up demand (due to inflation and gas prices, all expected results of the pandemic if you were thinking ahead).

It's going to take a sustained grassroots fight to take back control of the Red States, and combat the poison of FOX News. I've heard a comedian podcast describe Alex Jones as "workshopping" his propaganda in the same manner that a comedian works out a new comedy bit. There's someone out there who can do the same -- and better -- for liberals. And while I like Joe Biden, he's never going to be that guy. And it's better that some young, motivated voices organize and come up with a long-term strategy that they'll be around to execute and iterate on for the next 2 generations if necessary.
Do you think we have two generations to execute and iterate? With EVERYTHING we've seen in the last 20 years or hell the last two?
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by Zarathud »

My father-in-law said the old days weren't better, we just didn't talk about all the horrible things that happened. We do now. He would know, he used to take confessions while he was a Catholic priest.

There was a time that black people and women were property, and many years they couldn't vote. So we've had much worse days in America. Women know they're losing rights. Same with GLBTQs. And minorities with gerrymandering. They know it is possible to get those rights protected. Suffrage for women and blacks took years, not months. The fight to correct the course isn't going to happen overnight, as it took decades to get here.

The sky is not falling. The world is not ending. It's just going to get shittier for a while, and we've lost the illusion that America always progresses forward and towards its manifest destiny of goodness. So some deplorables and white nationalists acan chase a vision of America that never existed.

We've faced inflation before. We've faced recessions and high gas prices before. Not every white person had economic opportunities before. We've had periods where people literally starved to death, and died from even worse diseases than COVID. What's pissing me off is all the whining about it being the end of the world. It's the end of taking freedom for granted.

That's a lesson to be learned not for just 2 months, or 2 years. It's a lesson we'll need to remember for the rest of our lifetimes, and the next few generations. Not until the next tweet.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

Post by malchior »

Zarathud wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:13 am My father-in-law said the old days weren't better, we just didn't talk about all the horrible things that happened. We do now. He would know, he used to take confessions while he was a Catholic priest.

There was a time that black people and women were property, and many years they couldn't vote. So we've had much worse days in America. Women know they're losing rights. Same with GLBTQs. And minorities with gerrymandering. They know it is possible to get those rights protected. Suffrage for women and blacks took years, not months. The fight to correct the course isn't going to happen overnight, as it took decades to get here.
And it took a stroke of a pen to take away 50 years of progress. I'd argue that this worldview is not well calibrated. Yes times were bad. No doubt but the risks now are totally different. I'm no Drazzil who wants the world to burn but I'm amongst the people who have been warning about the threat for years. Only to be tone policed or told it was over the top.

I'd argue some of the mis-calibration is the premise. It isn't that people think times are worse because we are finally seeing more of it. That's in there a little bit to be fair. I however don't think that is why things are likely worse. My main argument is that our time is worse because we know that the things we saw in the past were wrong yet we are trying to re-frame society to make them acceptable again. That's reactionary re-framing and it's dangerous. It also worse because often we see the bad things happening and we *let them happen* and often don't care to do the hard work to hold the powerful accountable.

That is part of why I think this world view is wrong. This isn't just some minor set back. We've seen extraordinary degradation in our society after just 4 years of Donald Trump and 20+ years of an increasingly radicalized GOP. We are looking down the barrel at real violence and darkness. The type of violence we didn't think could happen here.

We've also seen a monumental shift just in the last two Supreme Court sessions. The next session might see them give support to radical legal theories that might make 2022 the last free, fair Presidential election in the United States. Those are not my words either, they are words of Presidential historian Michael Beschloss.
Spoiler:
We are looking down the potential effective end of our democracy. It's not a certainty by any means but it is a real risk. Probably more at risk than any time since the civil war.
The sky is not falling. The world is not ending. It's just going to get shittier for a while, and we've lost the illusion that America always progresses forward and towards its manifest destiny of goodness. So some deplorables and white nationalists acan chase a vision of America that never existed.
Maybe it won't politically end but we know that women are going to start dying. Why is their world not important? Women have already been cut off from their medical treatments because their medicine might have a tangential use as an abortifacient. And this is way more impactful than having some illusion torn away. I don't think this is a good read on why lots of folks are expressing fright and revulsion at current events. They aren't overreacting. This is underreaction IMO. The danger is here.
We've faced inflation before. We've faced recessions and high gas prices before. Not every white person had economic opportunities before. We've had periods where people literally starved to death, and died from even worse diseases than COVID. What's pissing me off is all the whining about it being the end of the world. It's the end of taking freedom for granted.
This is where I think you're getting in callous, wagging finger territory. Another way to look at this is such:
  • Women are absolutely going to die due to lack of health care availability and we're mad about it.
  • We're complaining about groups of fascists demonizing LGBT folks and trying to invade their spaces. With an ever increasing sense that violence and legal repression is to follow.
  • There is a lot of angst that the mostly preventable COVID is the 3rd leading cause of death by disease now, and really it shouldn't be about how bad the disease is. Again we KNOW BETTER and yet let it happen. To be fair, if I am reading the tone right, you are just joining the many who are almost certainly underestimating the impact.
  • And I don't think it's fair to say people are whining when they express alarm that white nationalists have infiltrated our police (per the FBI) and certainty are present in the political caste. That's not entirely a new problem but they are motivated and are acting with increasing effectiveness.
In any case, I'm not trying to be too angry about this but it's frustrating to still hear this. 'Alarmists' have been talking about what is happening now in varying degrees of concern for 20 years. Many of these alarmists are credentialed experts on authoritarianism. They have been constantly rebuffed with versions of push back like this where someone bundles this up as 'sky is falling' talk. Yet we have arguably seen the danger intensify and become clearer over time. I believe it's well past the time to go from worrying that people might be overreacting and instead pivot towards supporting defense of rights. We're at the point where we all have to actively fight for a better future. We have to ignore this left/right bullshit and recognize it is a battle between liberal democracy and illiberal authoritarianism. If the latter wins, then all rights potentially go out the window.
That's a lesson to be learned not for just 2 months, or 2 years. It's a lesson we'll need to remember for the rest of our lifetimes, and the next few generations. Not until the next tweet.
I agree it is about long-term values and social media is divisive and stupid in part. Social media also is sometimes useful to feel out the currents under events and get real-time feedback. But the thing I completely disagree on is that this is a short-attention span problem. The problem is that we have ignored a long-term problem for far too long and talk like this helps that problem continue.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

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The difference this time, I think, is that when these rights were originally granted, we had a very, very different system than the one in which people will be fighting to get them back.

The civil rights and suffrage movements took place in a democratic republic with backwards thinking people in charge and a clueless public. They didn't happen in a religious fascist autocracy.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

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The religious fascist autocracy literally founded Massachusetts. See Salem. The civil rights movement fought the white supremacists in the South who controlled everything — even where people lived and how they interacted. And how people voted.

I don’t mean to sound callous, and that’s not a world to aspire to live in. But we’re not there yet. It’s not too late. The way out is to fight back, not despair.

The Supreme Court made this trench warfare, when many thought they were safe. You don’t win a war by accepting you’ve lost.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

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Let's compromise: I'll continue my pattern of fighting back while despairing.
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The Biden Presidency Thread

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You do live in Indiana, so I’ll give you that.

A condition of my marriage was that my wife would never live in Indiana again. Her father moved the family out of hepcat’s neighborhood to Northern Indiana.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
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“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

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I'm not here by choice.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

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Zarathud wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:28 am The religious fascist autocracy literally founded Massachusetts. See Salem. The civil rights movement fought the white supremacists in the South who controlled everything — even where people lived and how they interacted. And how people voted.
And all the later progress that took decades has been wiped mostly clean in less than a decade. A clear example is how in the open, with Robert's hand on the tiller, the VRA has been eviscerated. And we're seeing those states reclaiming what they believe to be the natural balance - barely concealed if not open white supremacy. The destruction is far outpacing this system's ability to slow it even perhaps even survive it. I really still think you're badly (perhaps even wildly) mis-calibrated on the risk here. Our fight is nothing like previous fights. The more you search back into history to try to justify temperance, the more afield I think you'll find yourself.
I don’t mean to sound callous, and that’s not a world to aspire to live in. But we’re not there yet. It’s not too late. The way out is to fight back, not despair.
Yeah and to be clear I was just commenting that that type of talk *sounds* a bit callous. And I assumed it was unintentional. That's why I put forth reasons why people are explosively angry right now. It's more than justified - to those of us who I believe are properly calibrated to the risk we see a lot of folks in imminent danger. Both to the lives and their basic human rights. And we're not talking long-term. We might see further extreme change leading to people to immediate harm over the next couple of years.
The Supreme Court made this trench warfare, when many thought they were safe. You don’t win a war by accepting you’ve lost.
That implicitly assumes the war is winnable. Otherwise why fight it? Sometimes you have to accept you likely already lost *this* war and figure out the way forward. Should folks fight within the bounds of our system for now? Absolutely. Though the case is starting to crumble. Do we have to see an election actually stolen before we wake up? Will the fact that the election was stolen be this bright, obvious clear case? Doubtful. We know from Korematsu that imprisoning people for their natural characteristics alone is bad but will we see LGBT people face that fate? Will we do it knowing it is wrong? It doesn't seem impossible anymore. In any case, the more important thing is to recognize we're dealing with a slew of theoretical bad scenarios. Sometimes multiples of them are coming together in quick bursts.

One thing is clear. We must acknowledge they've been fighting outside the lines for a long time now. And the majority needs to prepare to acknowledge that the system we had is dead and gone. Perhaps long dead and gone. And what we'll do about it. If it is truly dead, then it will not be within this system.
Last edited by malchior on Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

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The biggest reason why people think this time is so much worse is that this time, they have to live through it, rather than just read about it.
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Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

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RunningMn9 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:22 am The biggest reason why people think this time is so much worse is that this time, they have to live through it, rather than just read about it.
It's possible. Still we we've strayed outside explaining what is happening here by looking at our own history. Never has anything like this happened here. It has happened elsewhere and it informs us of the danger we face. And it is indeed potentially worse than much our nation has lived through. That's why we see comparisons to Hungary, who Germany 1930, Argentina in the 1980s, etc. We are seeing many of the individual elements happening.

Still those example aren't individually great analogs for sure. Our own journey into authoritarianism is different. We've faced authoritarians before. The chief difference was that they were mostly on the fringes. But worse never has an entire political party turned towards authoritarianism so strongly or as openly in the United States. Sometimes we have to face we are facing a unique and potentially the 'worst' danger.
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Re: The Biden Presidency Thread

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malchior wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:32 am Never has anything like this happened here. It has happened elsewhere and it informs us of the danger we face.
At the risk of derailing:


One awful aspect of life post-Roe is how many medical providers, non-profits and even liberal politicians in “blue” states are caving. They’re willingly accepting the most extreme aspect of any one state’s law. They’re unwilling to say “make me” or to resist—they’re just caving.
My point here is there is a leadership vacuum and for whatever reason (on various issues) in places where Democrats are politically in control, they're still somehow bowing to external pressures and going with what the vocal minority wants. Is that entirely Biden's fault? I don't know, but when states and locals are flailing on larger issues, I do think elements of the administration can be rightfully blamed.
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