The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

[Alefroth]

He’s in the media so much he doesn’t need money for campaigning. As for the legality I’m sure it’s borderline legal but it would be a scandal if anyone but the Tancurian candidate did it (eg Biden, Obama etc)

Wouldn't Tanchurian be better?

[Blackhawk]

Him in jail would be bad for the campaign. Therefore it's in the interest of the campaign, and beneficial to the campaign that he have the best defense that (other peoples') money can buy.

[Isgrimnur]

Christopher Steele: UK High Court throws out Trump ex-spy dossier case

In bringing the lawsuit against Orbis Business Intelligence Ltd, he said the dossier contained allegations that were inaccurate and breached his data protection rights.

In Thursday's ruling in London, Mrs Justice Steyn DBE said she did not make any judgement on the allegations themselves but found Mr Trump's claim had not been brought within the six-year limitation period.

[Hyena]

Christopher Steele: UK High Court throws out Trump ex-spy dossier case

In bringing the lawsuit against Orbis Business Intelligence Ltd, he said the dossier contained allegations that were inaccurate and breached his data protection rights.

In Thursday's ruling in London, Mrs Justice Steyn DBE said she did not make any judgement on the allegations themselves but found Mr Trump's claim had not been brought within the six-year limitation period.

[pr0ner]

Trump's DC trial scheduled to start March 4 is on hold due to the lack of an appeals court ruling on his immunity claims.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, if we can just establish whether or not he's a king, it feels like maybe we can get on with it already. Why are we pretending anything else matters right now?

[Daehawk]

Can Trump run for president while being on trial?
If he is elected as President does his trial continue?
If he is found guilty and sentenced to prison can they put the President in prison?
Can he continue to serve as President from prison?
Can he pardon himself?

[El Guapo]

Can Trump run for president while being on trial?

Yes.

If he is elected as President does his trial continue?

Yes. But once inaugurated he would get various formal and informal powers to interfere with the proceedings against him, especially if Republicans also control Congress (especially the Senate). Among other things he would probably order the AG to dismiss any proceedings against him.

If he is found guilty and sentenced to prison can they put the President in prison?

Yes, although as President he would have various formal and informal powers to stop that (among other things, he would probably refuse to go and dare anyone to try to force him to go to prison).

Can he continue to serve as President from prison?

Yes, at least there's no formal rule saying that you stop being president if you're in prison.

Can he pardon himself?

That's a big and important question. Nothing in the pardon power explicitly says that the President can't pardon himself. He probably would pardon himself, which would spark various legal proceedings into that question.

[Unagi]

Can Trump run for president while being on trial?

Lol, have you looked outside your window?

[Unagi]

If he is elected as President does his trial continue?

Federal trials presumably would be dropped by his new DOJ.
State trials would (in theory) not be affected, but 'sitting president' would probably derail them.

[Unagi]

If he is found guilty and sentenced to prison can they put the President in prison?

Even if he isn't elected President in 2024 and he is found criminally guilty, realistically, the chances that he spends time at a real "prison" is about zero. Likely he would serve his time at a Military facility or even a home arrest at Mar-a-Lago, with Secret Service detail.

[Unagi]

Can he continue to serve as President from prison?

Yes?

[Unagi]

Can he pardon himself?

About 100% of constitutional and presidential scholars say: "No". But that wouldn't stop him from giving it a run.

[El Guapo]

Can he pardon himself?

About 100% of constitutional and presidential scholars say: "No". But that wouldn't stop him from giving it a run.

I think that's overstating things. This is the key clause of the Constitution:

he [the President] shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment

So the only clear textual limitations on the pardon power are: (1) the "offences" must be "against the United States", meaning it only applies to federal crimes; and (2) it doesn't cover "cases of impeachment", meaning that he can't prevent someone from being impeached and removed by pardoning them.

As a result, to argue that the President can't pardon themselves you have to argue from a sense of fundamental fairness and/or from English common law. Importantly, is that going to be enough to get five or more SCOTUS votes? Unclear at best.

[Unagi]

I believe the idea is more that the very idea of a ‘pardon’ is not something one can do to oneself, by definition.
Sorta like the word ‘condone’, it implies one party doing something for another party.


However, yeah, SCOTUS…

[Daehawk]

Man this is looking uglier the more I learn. Ill stop trying to learn myself.

[Pyperkub]

If he is elected as President does his trial continue?

Federal trials presumably would be dropped by his new DOJ.
State trials would (in theory) not be affected, but 'sitting president' would probably derail them.

Not sure about that because of the special counsel.

[Unagi]

If he is elected as President does his trial continue?

Federal trials presumably would be dropped by his new DOJ.
State trials would (in theory) not be affected, but 'sitting president' would probably derail them.

Not sure about that because of the special counsel.

I’m not following what you’re saying.
Can you flesh that out a little more?

[Pyperkub]

If he is elected as President does his trial continue?

Federal trials presumably would be dropped by his new DOJ.
State trials would (in theory) not be affected, but 'sitting president' would probably derail them.

Not sure about that because of the special counsel.

I’m not following what you’re saying.
Can you flesh that out a little more?

DOJ can't just shut down a Special Counsel (Jack Smith in this case).

Think Starr and Clinton.

[Unagi]

If he is elected as President does his trial continue?

Federal trials presumably would be dropped by his new DOJ.
State trials would (in theory) not be affected, but 'sitting president' would probably derail them.

Not sure about that because of the special counsel.

I’m not following what you’re saying.
Can you flesh that out a little more?

DOJ can't just shut down a Special Counsel (Jack Smith in this case).

Think Starr and Clinton.

Ah, okay - I follow you now. Well - presumably Trump's next administration would start with a DOJ that is filled with ethics-free individuals that wouldn't send in their resignation should the DOJ suspend the special counsel (Unlike the days of old). Apparently, there are also 'defunding' methods that an ethics-free DOJ could also invoke.

[Pyperkub]

Yeah, they would be all-in on Nixon firing Archibald Cox and re-enacting the Saturday Night Massacre these days (Cheney and Bork were ready to do it even then. While Thomas has been awful, Bork on the Supreme Court would have been even worse).

[El Guapo]

I believe the idea is more that the very idea of a ‘pardon’ is not something one can do to oneself, by definition.
Sorta like the word ‘condone’, it implies one party doing something for another party.


However, yeah, SCOTUS…

Yeah I think that's the argument. But while I'll admit to not being an expert on the scholarship here, I'm highly doubtful that the scholars are universal in their views on it. The whole "the language of the pardon puts limits on it but does not explicitly say that the pardon can't be for himself" is a pretty decent argument all things considered.

[Pyperkub]

It has never been tested, but it certainly will be if Trump gets a return visit.

[waitingtoconnect]

Him in jail would be bad for the campaign. Therefore it's in the interest of the campaign, and beneficial to the campaign that he have the best defense that (other peoples') money can buy.

It’d be great for the campaign! It would maytr him.

[Alefroth]

And which voters would that sway?

[Isgrimnur]

Him in jail would be bad for the campaign. Therefore it's in the interest of the campaign, and beneficial to the campaign that he have the best defense that (other peoples') money can buy.

It’d be great for the campaign! It would maytr him.

[Zarathud]

I would rather have Trump in jail martyred than a second Trump Presidency. Biden needs to campaign hard that Trump doesn’t care about anything but his “get out of jail free” pass while President.

[Kurth]

I would rather have Trump in jail martyred than a second Trump Presidency. Biden needs to campaign hard that Trump doesn’t care about anything but his “get out of jail free” pass while President.

Sadly, I'm not sure that's an effective campaign position. Are we sure it wouldn't just drive up the energy of his cult to vote him back in and give him that "get out of jail free" pass?

[waitingtoconnect]

I would rather have Trump in jail martyred than a second Trump Presidency. Biden needs to campaign hard that Trump doesn’t care about anything but his “get out of jail free” pass while President.

Tragically he could be both. In jail and president living in Jail Cell One.

[Zarathud]

If America is stupid enough to elect a jailed candidate, our democratic experiment was a failure and Rome has Fallen.

[Alefroth]

Same result if we re-elect him, jailed or not.

[Jaymann]

I prefer my martyrs to be literally martyred.

[The Meal]

You deserve credit for this.

[Isgrimnur]

You deserve credit for this.

Thank you kindly.

[waitingtoconnect]

If America is stupid enough to elect a jailed candidate, our democratic experiment was a failure and Rome has Fallen.

Can you imagine a 29th century Edward Gibbon commentating on that? He was of course a near contemporary of the founding fathers.

Some of his real prophetic quotes:

In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all – security, comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again.

The principles of a free constitution are irrecoverably lost, when the legislative power is nominated by the executive.

The Roman government appeared every day less formidable to its enemies, more odious and oppressive to its subjects.

It is scarcely possible that the eyes of contemporaries should discover in the public felicity the latent causes of decay and corruption. This long peace, and the uniform government of the Romans, introduced a slow and secret poison into the vitals of the empire. The minds of men were gradually reduced to the same level, the fire of genius was extinguished, and even the military spirit evaporated.

A nation ignorant of the equal benefits of liberty and law, must be awed by the flashes of arbitrary power: the cruelty of a despot will assume the character of justice; his profusion, of liberality; his obstinacy, of firmness.

[GreenGoo]

You deserve credit for this.

+1. Now I feel bad for not saying anything when I first saw it. Don't take your izzys for granted, people!

[Dogstar]

DC Circuit rules against Presidential immunity for Trump in 2020 election case.

“Trump's stance would collapse our system of separated powers by placing the President beyond the reach of all three Branches… We cannot accept that the office of the Presidency places its former occupants above the law for all time thereafter.

[Smoove_B]

"President Trump respectfully disagrees with the DC Circuit’s decision and will appeal it in order to safeguard the Presidency and the Constitution,” his campaign spokesman Steven Cheung said in a statement.

[LordMortis]

respectfully?

Translation - He needs to delay this until the after the election and then work on finding a way to immunity while being a sitting president after all the MAGA Sec's of State attempt to place him in power. We won't even mention corrupt As of G like like Paxton. Oops!

[Pyperkub]

There he goes again...

The state Ethics Commission alleges Donald Trump’s joint fundraising committee and GOP state Rep. Janel Brandtjen schemed to evade campaign finance limits as part of an effort that steered at least $40,000 to the 2022 primary challenge of Speaker Robin Vos, according to records obtained by WisPolitics.

The commission this week recommended local district attorneys investigate and charge both, as well as the campaign of Adam Steen, who lost to Vos by 260 votes, eight individuals and the three county Republican parties alleged to be involved.

The referrals accuse Steen, Brandtjen, the Save America Joint Fundraising Committee and others of committing felonies.

How many felonies is he going to rack up?