I'm not sure Trump being seen as a martyr carries much threat. Anyone who would believe that is already part of the cult.
You'd like to think that, but it will give him a whole new group - the people that aren't cultists but it makes them feel uncomfortable that a former President was jailed over his words. TFG fueling it by claiming Biden is responsible - because he's a fascist or something - will only help nudge them toward either not voting or supporting the garbage GOP. Basically, it gives them the "cover" they need to vote GOP - you know, for democracy.
I'm not at all convinced his support is that strong that we'd see Jan.6 levels of mobs descending on the jail. More like 20 people holding signs and one guy with a folding table selling MAGA merch.
Smoove_B wrote:You'd like to think that, but it will give him a whole new group - the people that aren't cultists but it makes them feel uncomfortable that a former President was jailed over his words.
And that's exactly what he's counting on. Not being held accountable out of fear. Which is exactly why we should NOT play into that. I'm tired of people walking on eggshells around this asshole.
Last edited by YellowKing on Mon May 06, 2024 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 5:01 pm
I'm not at all convinced his support is that strong that we'd see Jan.6 levels of mobs descending on the jail. More like 20 people holding signs and one guy with a folding table selling MAGA merch.
I'm also not comfortable with the idea that a high enough number and level of lawlessness of someone's followers should be a get-out-of-jail-free card.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 5:01 pm
I'm not at all convinced his support is that strong that we'd see Jan.6 levels of mobs descending on the jail. More like 20 people holding signs and one guy with a folding table selling MAGA merch.
I'm also not comfortable with the idea that a high enough number and level of lawlessness of someone's followers should be a get-out-of-jail-free card.
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 5:01 pm
I'm not at all convinced his support is that strong that we'd see Jan.6 levels of mobs descending on the jail. More like 20 people holding signs and one guy with a folding table selling MAGA merch.
I don't think there will be mobs if he's jailed or even in November of this year, pending the election.
And that's exactly what he's counting on. Not being held accountable out of fear. Which is exactly why we should NOT play into that. I'm tired of people walking on eggshells around this asshole.
I don't think he's being held out of jail for fear it will spark violence. I think he's being held out of jail because we (collectively) believe we're above jailing former Presidents - that it's not something that should ever happen in America. And yet our failure to do so - and to hold him politically/legally accountable for anything from 2015 and beyond - continues to erode our democracy. I still hear (locals) talking about "legal votes"; he's done so much damage to our way of life I don't even think we can fully appreciate it.
Violence? Possibly. But the undermining of our elections and destruction of public trust has been much, much worse.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 4:58 pm
I don't know that there's any jail in the country ready to handle what happens outside on the day that he's put inside.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 4:58 pm
I don't know that there's any jail in the country ready to handle what happens outside on the day that he's put inside.
It should be noted that Trump’s lawyers do know in advance of witness, but Trump is kept out of the loop due to his gag order.
Further note, this has since been deleted as it would be a violation of his gag order. His lawyers probably saw it, had a heart attack, and told Trump to take it down.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Also, he's making it seem like it's a surprise witness. Which is a giant no no for trials. But the reality is that the Defense just doesn't know what day the witness will be called and not that it's a 100% surprise that the witness is being called in the first place. This is normal for all trials.
Gee, I wonder why the defense wasn't given the courtesy of knowing the order of witnesses? He's already deleted that social media post, so I guess that's not a violation of a gag order.
Who would have guessed Stormy would testify about Trump bribing her and the affair? I mean, Trump paid good money for this not to happen!
/sarcasm
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein "I don't stand by anything." - Trump “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867 “It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
Scraper wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 9:43 am
Also, he's making it seem like it's a surprise witness. Which is a giant no no for trials. But the reality is that the Defense just doesn't know what day the witness will be called and not that it's a 100% surprise that the witness is being called in the first place. This is normal for all trials.
I'm not a litigator, but Mr. Fed posted a while back that it's highly unusual to not know the order of witnesses in a trial and can be a big advantage to the prosecution to not provide the information. It's completely justified in this case given Trump's behavior, but Fed made it sound like this was not normal.
Scraper wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 9:43 am
Also, he's making it seem like it's a surprise witness. Which is a giant no no for trials. But the reality is that the Defense just doesn't know what day the witness will be called and not that it's a 100% surprise that the witness is being called in the first place. This is normal for all trials.
I'm not a litigator, but Mr. Fed posted a while back that it's highly unusual to not know the order of witnesses in a trial and can be a big advantage to the prosecution to not provide the information. It's completely justified in this case given Trump's behavior, but Fed made it sound like this was not normal.
This varies by venue and Judge, but witness order is always subject to change, so even if they give a desired schedule, it can and does change.
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 9:45 am
Gee, I wonder why the defense wasn't given the courtesy of knowing the order of witnesses? He's already deleted that social media post, so I guess that's not a violation of a gag order.
How would that be a violation of the gag order? Trump is allowed to criticize the judge and the trial procedure. What am I missing?
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Kurth wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 1:39 pm
How would that be a violation of the gag order? Trump is allowed to criticize the judge and the trial procedure. What am I missing?
Not sure why I thought he was prohibited from commenting on the trial as well. I guess that's just stupid?
Still, I'll be amazed if he doesn't violate it later today after having to sit there and listen to Stormy Daniels and not respond in real time.
EDIT: An hour ago he posted a copy of the signed statement Stormy made in 2018 indicating that nothing happened. If that's not against the gag order, then I give up.
Kurth wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 1:39 pm
How would that be a violation of the gag order? Trump is allowed to criticize the judge and the trial procedure. What am I missing?
Not sure why I thought he was prohibited from commenting on the trial as well. I guess that's just stupid?
Still, I'll be amazed if he doesn't violate it later today after having to sit there and listen to Stormy Daniels and not respond in real time.
EDIT: An hour ago he posted a copy of the signed statement Stormy made in 2018 indicating that nothing happened. If that's not against the gag order, then I give up.
I think you need to go back and re-read (or read?) the gag order. He's prohibited from attacking witnesses and court staff and family members (not the judge himself or the prosecutor).
Posting a signed statement from Stormy in 2018, without more (like saying she's a liar and a cheat) would not violate the gag order.
So, you should give up.
[Edited to add, apparently Trump's post wasn't limited to just reposting the 2018 statement without commentary, so maybe don't give up just yet, Smoove!]
Last edited by Kurth on Tue May 07, 2024 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Also, it does not sound like this morning's testimony from Stormy was very helpful to the prosecution. She appears to have been all over the place ("a difficult witness to control" in the words of Judge Merchan) and may have violated some of the Judge's orders in limine about the scope of her testimony in going into lurid and irrelevant details about her encounter with Trump (e.g., he didn't wear a condom). Judge Merchan was visibly pissed and sustained many defense objections and even raised his own, scolding Stormy and the prosecution at times. Not a good look in front of the jury.
Stormy is also reported to have alternated from being mocking and derisive of Trump to portraying herself as a victim, implying that the sexual encounter was not entirely consensual (talk of Trump blocking the door and her "blacking out" and an imbalance of power between them). There was tension between these two approaches - Stormy as victim and Stormy as heckler - and the jury was reported to have not appeared to have responded well. Stormy also testified that she didn't care about the money she was paid, which is . . . hard to believe.
I have a sneaking feeling that she may get wrecked on cross examination.
This all calls into question why the prosecution called her as a witness in the first place. Unlike her civil defamation suit against Trump - which she lost - this case is not about whether she had sex with Trump or even knew him. This case is all about the hush money payments, not what Trump was paying to have hushed.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Stormy is also reported to have alternated from being mocking and derisive of Trump to portraying herself as a victim, implying that the sexual encounter was not entirely consensual (talk of Trump blocking the door and her "blacking out" and an imbalance of power between them). There was tension between these two approaches - Stormy as victim and Stormy as heckler - and the jury was reported to have not appeared to have responded well.
That reporting sounds pretty sexist. She can be both a victim and an advocate for herself? She can't have grown in 18 years?
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Stormy is also reported to have alternated from being mocking and derisive of Trump to portraying herself as a victim, implying that the sexual encounter was not entirely consensual (talk of Trump blocking the door and her "blacking out" and an imbalance of power between them). There was tension between these two approaches - Stormy as victim and Stormy as heckler - and the jury was reported to have not appeared to have responded well.
That reporting sounds pretty sexist. She can be both a victim and an advocate for herself? She can't have grown in 18 years?
I’m just reading and paraphrasing from live updates from the NYT. It didn’t come off as sexist when I read the updates, and all commentary about the tension comes from me. The issue here is that “Stormy as victim” who’s not in it for the money seems to be something relatively new. I don’t think it’s sexist to question whether that is in tension with a strong personality who is mocking and deriding Trump from the stand, something much more in keeping with the Stormy the public is generally familiar with.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Kurth wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 2:48 pm
I think you need to go back and re-read (or read?) the gag order. He's prohibited from attacking witnesses and court staff and family members (not the judge himself or the prosecutor).
I guess when I initially saw it reported, I interpreted "court staff" to include the judge and the prosecutor. But I guess freedom is important.
Posting a signed statement from Stormy in 2018, without more (like saying she's a liar and a cheat) would not violate the gag order.
Could that be seen as intimidation (calling her a liar on social media)? It feels (to me) like posting anything about a testifying witness would be problematic, but I guess I'm not the 4D chess genius that is DJT.
[Edited to add, apparently Trump's post wasn't limited to just reposting the 2018 statement without commentary, so maybe don't give up just yet, Smoove!]
Always keep hope alive that he'll get his 37th warning not to violate the gag order!
Kurth wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 3:51 pm
The issue here is that “Stormy as victim” who’s not in it for the money seems to be something relatively new.
I'll admit I haven't thought about him having sex with her after the birth of his son in quite a long time, but I don't have a recollection as it being presented the way it was today - like there was a power dynamic in place and she was (seemingly) complicit out of fear.
Kurth wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 3:51 pm
The issue here is that “Stormy as victim” who’s not in it for the money seems to be something relatively new.
I'll admit I haven't thought about him having sex with her after the birth of his son in quite a long time, but I don't have a recollection as it being presented the way it was today - like there was a power dynamic in place and she was (seemingly) complicit out of fear.
I cannot believe we still have to think about him at all . . .
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Kurth wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 2:48 pm
I think you need to go back and re-read (or read?) the gag order. He's prohibited from attacking witnesses and court staff and family members (not the judge himself or the prosecutor).
I guess when I initially saw it reported, I interpreted "court staff" to include the judge and the prosecutor. But I guess freedom is important.
Posting a signed statement from Stormy in 2018, without more (like saying she's a liar and a cheat) would not violate the gag order.
Could that be seen as intimidation (calling her a liar on social media)? It feels (to me) like posting anything about a testifying witness would be problematic, but I guess I'm not the 4D chess genius that is DJT.
[Edited to add, apparently Trump's post wasn't limited to just reposting the 2018 statement without commentary, so maybe don't give up just yet, Smoove!]
Always keep hope alive that he'll get his 37th warning not to violate the gag order!
I don’t think he’s a 4d chess genius- I believe he is more a street fighter 2 button masher.
Kurth wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 3:51 pm
The issue here is that “Stormy as victim” who’s not in it for the money seems to be something relatively new.
I'll admit I haven't thought about him having sex with her after the birth of his son in quite a long time, but I don't have a recollection as it being presented the way it was today - like there was a power dynamic in place and she was (seemingly) complicit out of fear.
I cannot believe we still have to think about him at all . . .
It be great if they would stop giving him warnings or small fines and start laying down the hammer. He knows what he's doing. He's daring the judge. Just do it already.
Last edited by naednek on Wed May 08, 2024 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
They're fining him 4 figure amounts. His "campaign" war chest absorbs that without noticing. It's not a deterrent in any way.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
How can you say the court is so powerless when Trump is literally on trial? The jury can hold him accountable at the end of the trial.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein "I don't stand by anything." - Trump “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867 “It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
