Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Victoria Raverna]

Hamas is reportedly gloating over this. Now they see no downside to murdering innocent men, women and children.

They got the result that they wanted while a peaceful approach by Fatah didn't win Palestinians anything other than losing more lands in West Bank to settlers.

[hepcat]

You're right, when you have officials like the PLA and Hamas that consistently refuse to negotiate in good faith on your behalf, killing innocent men, women and children is always your best option.

I'm not saying that Israel has been great either in negotiations (and they're downright awful in some cases). But I take umbrage at your insinuation that Hamas did the right thing.

[Zarathud]

That is how you support the methods of terrorists. Shame.

[Victoria Raverna]

You're right, when you have officials like the PLA and Hamas that consistently refuse to negotiate in good faith on your behalf, killing innocent men, women and children is always your best option.

I'm not saying that Israel has been great either in negotiations (and they're downright awful in some cases). But I take umbrage at your insinuation that Hamas did the right thing.

I don't agree with their method but peaceful approach rarely works. It is the same with protests. Peaceful protests that don't bother anyone rarely works. A lot countries gained independence through fighting, not by peaceful negotiation with the oppressors.

[hepcat]

There's a HUGE difference between a protest and killing thousands of innocent civilian in a friggin' raid. As for the history of rebellion, let's stick to the examples in which one side (like Hamas and many in that region) literally called for the complete annihilation of the other side, and not just freedom for themselves.

I guess I'm truly surprised that it's now come down to you basically stating Hamas had no other choice.

I'll bow out, as I said I would earlier. I don't see how anything further can be gained from my participation in this discussion.

[Victoria Raverna]

There's a HUGE difference between a protest and killing thousands of innocent civilian in a friggin' raid.

I'm truly surprised that it's now come down to you basically stating Hamas had no other choice.

I am just being honest here. If US/Israel want peaceful process to be successful, they need to deal fairly with Fatah which chose to negotiate with Israel. Show them that negotiation works. Instead of doing that, Netanyahu propped up Hamas to weaken Fatah.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... -our-faces

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

...

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.

According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.

While Netanyahu does not make these kind of statements publicly or officially, his words are in line with the policy that he implemented.

[LawBeefaroni]

You're right, when you have officials like the PLA and Hamas that consistently refuse to negotiate in good faith on your behalf, killing innocent men, women and children is always your best option.

I'm not saying that Israel has been great either in negotiations (and they're downright awful in some cases). But I take umbrage at your insinuation that Hamas did the right thing.

I don't agree with their method but peaceful approach rarely works. It is the same with protests. Peaceful protests that don't bother anyone rarely works. A lot countries gained independence through fighting, not by peaceful negotiation with the oppressors.

So attack IDF barracks and government buildings or blow up infrastructure. Targeting soft civilian targets isn't fighting for independence.

[El Guapo]

You're right, when you have officials like the PLA and Hamas that consistently refuse to negotiate in good faith on your behalf, killing innocent men, women and children is always your best option.

I'm not saying that Israel has been great either in negotiations (and they're downright awful in some cases). But I take umbrage at your insinuation that Hamas did the right thing.

I don't agree with their method but peaceful approach rarely works. It is the same with protests. Peaceful protests that don't bother anyone rarely works. A lot countries gained independence through fighting, not by peaceful negotiation with the oppressors.

As I recall his famous and violent slaughter of civilians is what really sealed the deal for India's independence.

[hepcat]

(just adding to El Guapo's post)

[Victoria Raverna]

There was a lot of violence in South Africa before it ended apartheid "peacefully".

[Blackhawk]

Hamas is reportedly gloating over this. Now they see no downside to murdering innocent men, women and children.

They got the result that they wanted while a peaceful approach by Fatah didn't win Palestinians anything other than losing more lands in West Bank to settlers.

Just to get this out and on the table:

It's October 6th, last year.

Knowing this was the result, what should Hamas have done?

[Victoria Raverna]

You're right, when you have officials like the PLA and Hamas that consistently refuse to negotiate in good faith on your behalf, killing innocent men, women and children is always your best option.

I'm not saying that Israel has been great either in negotiations (and they're downright awful in some cases). But I take umbrage at your insinuation that Hamas did the right thing.

I don't agree with their method but peaceful approach rarely works. It is the same with protests. Peaceful protests that don't bother anyone rarely works. A lot countries gained independence through fighting, not by peaceful negotiation with the oppressors.

As I recall his famous and violent slaughter of civilians is what really sealed the deal for India's independence.

While he is known for the "non violence". There were actual violences before India gained independence.

[Victoria Raverna]

Hamas is reportedly gloating over this. Now they see no downside to murdering innocent men, women and children.

They got the result that they wanted while a peaceful approach by Fatah didn't win Palestinians anything other than losing more lands in West Bank to settlers.

Just to get this out and on the table:

It's October 6th, last year.

Knowing this was the result, what should Hamas have done?

Go ahead with the plan? But they didn't actually know the result. The current result was mostly because of Israel's action in response of October 7th. If Israel didn't respond badly, I think Israel will still have a lot of support and sympathy because of the October 7th attack.

[Blackhawk]

Hamas is reportedly gloating over this. Now they see no downside to murdering innocent men, women and children.

They got the result that they wanted while a peaceful approach by Fatah didn't win Palestinians anything other than losing more lands in West Bank to settlers.

Just to get this out and on the table:

It's October 6th, last year.

Knowing this was the result, what should Hamas have done?

Go ahead with the plan? But they didn't actually know the result. The current result was mostly because of Israel's action in response of October 7th. If Israel didn't respond badly, I think Israel will still have a lot of support and sympathy because of the October 7th attack.

Thank you for stating your position outright.

[El Guapo]

You're right, when you have officials like the PLA and Hamas that consistently refuse to negotiate in good faith on your behalf, killing innocent men, women and children is always your best option.

I'm not saying that Israel has been great either in negotiations (and they're downright awful in some cases). But I take umbrage at your insinuation that Hamas did the right thing.

I don't agree with their method but peaceful approach rarely works. It is the same with protests. Peaceful protests that don't bother anyone rarely works. A lot countries gained independence through fighting, not by peaceful negotiation with the oppressors.

As I recall his famous and violent slaughter of civilians is what really sealed the deal for India's independence.

While he is known for the "non violence". There were actual violences before India gained independence.

Yeah, of course. No struggle involving many disparate people and factions is going to be entirely non-violent. And there can be a symbiotic effect between moderates and radicals that allows Gandhi to say to the British essentially "hey, you have to deal with me, or you're going to have to deal with these other assholes that are a hundred times worse."

That said, Gandhi's movement was the primary force in securing India's independence, and Mandela's movement was the primary force in ending apartheid. It's also worth noting that neither Gandhi nor Mandela's movements, while nonviolent, were ones that "don't bother anyone" - they used strikes and other non-violent methods that greatly interfered with the administration of the state and the country.

[Victoria Raverna]

Before October 7th, Israel's leaders chose to deal with Hamas which use violence instead of the side that chose peace/non violence.

[Zarathud]

Who is leading the Palestinian “state”? Hamas? The PLO? A substantial reason there is no peace is because the Palestinians can’t agree on credible leadership willing to negotiate peace. There is Ghandi or Mandela or Gerry Adams (Sein Feinn).

[hepcat]

The video that Israel released of female hostages abducted on Oct. 7th is pretty hard to watch.

The footage shows the young women, all of them stunned and some bloodied, being bound and bundled into a jeep.

"I have friends in Palestine," one of the conscripts, 19-year-old Naama Levy, pleads in English.

One of the gunmen can be heard shouting back in Arabic: "You are dogs! We will step on you, dogs!"

Another gunman tells a captive: "You're beautiful."

That last line is just creepy and terrifying in its implication of what might happen.

edit: christ, the full video is even worse than I thought.

Spoiler:

"Here are the girls who can get pregnant."

[Zarathud]

Remember Victoria Raverna and Hamas have both pronounced that it’s all a lie told by Israelis.

[waitingtoconnect]

It’s all AI of course. (Sarcasm)

[El Guapo]

Remember Victoria Raverna and Hamas have both pronounced that it’s all a lie told by Israelis.

I've never understood skepticism over sexual assault on October 7th. Anytime you have armed young men rampaging through a population...you're going to see rape. It would have been surprising if it didn't happen.

[Victoria Raverna]

Remember Victoria Raverna and Hamas have both pronounced that it’s all a lie told by Israelis.

I've never understood skepticism over sexual assault on October 7th. Anytime you have armed young men rampaging through a population...you're going to see rape. It would have been surprising if it didn't happen.

It is about systematic or use rape as a weapon vs there are cases of rape. I don't think anyone claimed there were no case of rape or sexual assault on Oct 7th.

Also until now there is still no single verified evidence of any rape. Now that is not the same as no rape on October 7th. It is just there is still no proof of any rape on Oct 7th. It is hard to believe there were systematic rape when it is that hard to find a single case.

[Victoria Raverna]

Good to see that good people in Israel are willing to act to fight against bad people in Israel:

[Zarathud]

Remember Victoria Raverna and Hamas have both pronounced that it’s all a lie told by Israelis.

I've never understood skepticism over sexual assault on October 7th. Anytime you have armed young men rampaging through a population...you're going to see rape. It would have been surprising if it didn't happen.

It is about systematic or use rape as a weapon vs there are cases of rape. I don't think anyone claimed there were no case of rape or sexual assault on Oct 7th.

Also until now there is still no single verified evidence of any rape. Now that is not the same as no rape on October 7th. It is just there is still no proof of any rape on Oct 7th. It is hard to believe there were systematic rape when it is that hard to find a single case.

Move the goalposts, deny, then make the original argument that was denied, but based on unsubstantiated belief that the victims were “unverified”. Wow, the logic is terrible even aside from the fact it’s defending terrorism and rapists — who are still holding many hostages.

[El Guapo]

Remember Victoria Raverna and Hamas have both pronounced that it’s all a lie told by Israelis.

I've never understood skepticism over sexual assault on October 7th. Anytime you have armed young men rampaging through a population...you're going to see rape. It would have been surprising if it didn't happen.

It is about systematic or use rape as a weapon vs there are cases of rape. I don't think anyone claimed there were no case of rape or sexual assault on Oct 7th.

Also until now there is still no single verified evidence of any rape. Now that is not the same as no rape on October 7th. It is just there is still no proof of any rape on Oct 7th. It is hard to believe there were systematic rape when it is that hard to find a single case.

What do you mean "verified" cases? In what way, and by whom? Obviously there's evidence of rape. I assume that you're not expecting Hamas to have applied rape kits.

Put another way - do you think that there was rape on October 7th or not?

[Victoria Raverna]

Remember Victoria Raverna and Hamas have both pronounced that it’s all a lie told by Israelis.

I've never understood skepticism over sexual assault on October 7th. Anytime you have armed young men rampaging through a population...you're going to see rape. It would have been surprising if it didn't happen.

It is about systematic or use rape as a weapon vs there are cases of rape. I don't think anyone claimed there were no case of rape or sexual assault on Oct 7th.

Also until now there is still no single verified evidence of any rape. Now that is not the same as no rape on October 7th. It is just there is still no proof of any rape on Oct 7th. It is hard to believe there were systematic rape when it is that hard to find a single case.

What do you mean "verified" cases? In what way, and by whom? Obviously there's evidence of rape. I assume that you're not expecting Hamas to have applied rape kits.

Put another way - do you think that there was rape on October 7th or not?

Yes. It is reasonable to believe that there were rape or sexual violence on October 7th. What I don't believe is that it was systematic. The problem is that Israel made so many false claims that we just can't trust their words. Do you forget about the 40 beheaded babies claim? One that was repeated by Netanyahu and Biden? Know what is the conclusion about that claim? Do you think it was there were beheaded babies just not 40 beheaded babies? Or there was zero beheaded baby?

BTW, here are an article about UN's report on sexual violence and rape:

https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

There are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence — including rape and gang-rape — occurred across multiple locations of Israel and the Gaza periphery during the attacks on 7 October 2023, a senior United Nations official reported to the Security Council today, as she presented findings from her visit to Israel and the occupied West Bank.

Following allegations of brutal sexual violence committed during and in the aftermath of the Hamas-led terror attacks, Pramila Patten, the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, led an official visit to Israel from 29 January to 14 February to gather, analyse and verify reports of sexual violence related to the 7 October attack. Due to ongoing hostilities, the Special Representative did not request to visit Gaza, where other UN entities that monitor sexual violence are operational.

“What I witnessed in Israel were scenes of unspeakable violence perpetrated with shocking brutality,” Ms. Patten recalled. Detailing her methodology, she said that her team met with families of hostages and members of communities displaced from several kibbutzim. It conducted confidential interviews with 34 individuals, including survivors and witnesses of the 7 October attacks, released hostages, first responders and health and service providers. It visited four attack sites — as well as the morgue to which the bodies of victims were transferred — and reviewed over 5,000 photographic images and some 50 hours of footage of the attacks.

“It was a catalogue of the most extreme and inhumane forms of killing, torture and other horrors,” including sexual violence, she stated. The team also found convincing information that sexual violence was committed against hostages, and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may still be ongoing against those in captivity. While there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred in the Nova music festival site, Route 232, and kibbutz Re’im, reported incidents of rape could not be verified in other locations. Concurrently, the team determined that at least two allegations of sexual violence in kibbutz Be’eri — widely reported in the media — were unfounded.

Turning to the West Bank, she painted a grim picture of “intense fear and insecurity, with women and men terrified and deeply disturbed over the ongoing tragedy in Gaza”. On her visit to Ramallah, she spotlighted instances of sexual violence in the context of detention, such as invasive body searches; beatings, including in the genital areas; and threats of rape against women and female family members. Sexual harassment and threats of rape during house raids and at checkpoints were also reported. She expressed disappointment that the immediate reaction to her report by some Israeli political actors was not to open inquiries into those alleged incidents but, rather, to reject them outright via social media.

However, she underscored that her findings do not legitimize further hostilities. Instead, they create a moral imperative for a humanitarian ceasefire to end the unspeakable suffering imposed on Palestinian civilians in Gaza and bring about the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages. “I am horrified by the injustice of women and children killed in Gaza,” she said, stressing that the end goal of her mandate is not “a war without rape” but a “world without war”.

In the following discussion, numerous Council Members — among them, the representatives of China, Switzerland, Japan, Slovenia, Malta, Mozambique and Ecuador — expressed shock over the incidents of sexual violence related to the 7 October attacks detailed in the Special Representative’s report. Many urged Hamas to immediately release all hostages, who — according to the report — can still be subjected to such acts. Some, including the representatives of the United States and France, criticized the Council’s failure to condemn Hamas.

There can be no doubt about what happened on 7 October, said the representative of the United States, pointing to the report’s findings that several bodies, naked from the waist down, were recovered — mostly “women with hands tied and shot multiple times, often in the head”. The report also indicated that the detention of Palestinians has been compounded by sexual violence. Nevertheless, she rejected “the false equivalency between these actions and hostage-taking by a foreign terrorist organization”.

Incidents of sexual violence in Israel and the West Bank contained in the report “add another horrific dimension to the tragedy unfolding in the Middle East”, observed Guyana’s delegate. Noting that at least two widely reported allegations of sexual violence were unfounded, she urged all parties “to act responsibly and avoid sensationalizing headlines”.

Tariq Ahmad, Minister of State in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office of the United Kingdom, said that London is ready to provide support, including its team of experts on preventing sexual violence in conflict and its toolkit that provides practical measures to address the stigma faced by survivors. “All reports of sexual violence must be fully investigated to ensure justice for survivors and victims,” he said, adding that “justice delayed is justice denied”.

Many echoed that call for accountability, including Sierra Leone’s delegate, who urged Israel to grant access to the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) — as well as the Independent International Commission of Inquiry in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel — to fully investigate all alleged violations.

Likewise, his counterpart from Switzerland underscored that competent bodies must establish the facts to help identify violations and ensure accountability. Adding to that, the representative of the Republic of Korea stressed that a comprehensive investigative process, involving national authorities and OHCHR, will “bring light to the complete extent of alleged violations”.

The Russian Federation’s delegate, meanwhile, questioned the UN’s selective approach to visits in the region — including the Special Representative’s recent trip, which did not cover the Gaza Strip. “We are dealing with some sort of half-truth that in no way gives a full picture,” she stressed. Noting that the Special Representative’s report was based on data received from the Israeli Government rather than accounts of the 7 October victims, she underscored that “putting an end to violence, including sexual violence, will only be possible when we have objective and verified information”.

Calling for such impartiality was Algeria’s delegate, who said that the Special Representative should have been granted authorization to visit the numerous detention centres where more than 3,484 Palestinian administrative detainees are held without trial. “Her presence in the Gaza Strip would have allowed her to witness, first-hand, the extent of sexual abuse inflicted upon Palestinians by occupying forces and convey it to the international community,” he stressed.

The plight of Palestinians is not a recent phenomenon, he continued, noting that only three criminal investigations have been initiated in response to 1,400 complaints about acts of torture since 2001. None have led to indictments. “What the Palestinians — particularly women — endure is a litmus test for the credibility of international law and the global framework outlined in Security Council resolutions,” he underscored, urging an immediate end to ongoing atrocities.

For his part, the Permanent Observer of the State of Palestine said that the Council has shown “unprecedented reactivity” by convening a briefing on a report just released. For decades, similar reports regarding sexual assault against Palestinians have not led to the convening of a single Council meeting. He then recalled that the Special Representative’s mission did not seek to gather information or verify allegations in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, so as not to duplicate the ongoing work of other UN entities there.

Yet, none of these entities were invited today to present their findings, he pointed out, extending an invitation for the Special Representative to visit Gaza. He also pledged Palestine’s readiness to cooperate with OHCHR and the Independent International Commission of Inquiry. The Council should demand that Israel do the same since that country keeps saying that it has nothing to hide, he stated, adding: “Let the facts speak, let the law decide.”

Israel Katz, Minister for Foreign Affairs of Israel, criticized the United Nations for remaining silent about Hamas’ horrible acts for too long. According to the Special Representative’s report, the killings of innocent young men and women on 7 October were crimes against humanity. Against this backdrop, he called on the United Nations to declare Hamas a terrorist organization, citing the recognition of this status by numerous countries. Emphasizing that “Hamas does not speak on behalf of the Muslim world,” he urged Muslim leaders to denounce the crimes committed by Hamas, particularly those involving sexual violence.

Turning to the situation of hostages, he urged the Council to take urgent action to ensure the release of 134 kidnapped individuals and “stop this living hell”. “By doing so, you will show the world that the Security Council can be a shining light of justice for all,” he added.

[El Guapo]

Remember Victoria Raverna and Hamas have both pronounced that it’s all a lie told by Israelis.

I've never understood skepticism over sexual assault on October 7th. Anytime you have armed young men rampaging through a population...you're going to see rape. It would have been surprising if it didn't happen.

It is about systematic or use rape as a weapon vs there are cases of rape. I don't think anyone claimed there were no case of rape or sexual assault on Oct 7th.

Also until now there is still no single verified evidence of any rape. Now that is not the same as no rape on October 7th. It is just there is still no proof of any rape on Oct 7th. It is hard to believe there were systematic rape when it is that hard to find a single case.

What do you mean "verified" cases? In what way, and by whom? Obviously there's evidence of rape. I assume that you're not expecting Hamas to have applied rape kits.

Put another way - do you think that there was rape on October 7th or not?

Yes. It is reasonable to believe that there were rape or sexual violence on October 7th. What I don't believe is that it was systematic. The problem is that Israel made so many false claims that we just can't trust their words. Do you forget about the 40 beheaded babies claim? One that was repeated by Netanyahu and Biden? Know what is the conclusion about that claim? Do you think it was there were beheaded babies just not 40 beheaded babies? Or there was zero beheaded baby?

BTW, here are an article about UN's report on sexual violence and rape:

https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

There are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence — including rape and gang-rape — occurred across multiple locations of Israel and the Gaza periphery during the attacks on 7 October 2023, a senior United Nations official reported to the Security Council today, as she presented findings from her visit to Israel and the occupied West Bank.

Following allegations of brutal sexual violence committed during and in the aftermath of the Hamas-led terror attacks, Pramila Patten, the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, led an official visit to Israel from 29 January to 14 February to gather, analyse and verify reports of sexual violence related to the 7 October attack. Due to ongoing hostilities, the Special Representative did not request to visit Gaza, where other UN entities that monitor sexual violence are operational.

“What I witnessed in Israel were scenes of unspeakable violence perpetrated with shocking brutality,” Ms. Patten recalled. Detailing her methodology, she said that her team met with families of hostages and members of communities displaced from several kibbutzim. It conducted confidential interviews with 34 individuals, including survivors and witnesses of the 7 October attacks, released hostages, first responders and health and service providers. It visited four attack sites — as well as the morgue to which the bodies of victims were transferred — and reviewed over 5,000 photographic images and some 50 hours of footage of the attacks.

“It was a catalogue of the most extreme and inhumane forms of killing, torture and other horrors,” including sexual violence, she stated. The team also found convincing information that sexual violence was committed against hostages, and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may still be ongoing against those in captivity. While there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred in the Nova music festival site, Route 232, and kibbutz Re’im, reported incidents of rape could not be verified in other locations. Concurrently, the team determined that at least two allegations of sexual violence in kibbutz Be’eri — widely reported in the media — were unfounded.

This shows that there are verified cases of rape, right? At least to the extent that it can be "verified" under the relevant conditions? And this is not dependent on whether one believes Israeli claims about anything, right?

Also, what do you mean by "systemic"? Like I doubt that Hamas commanders gave their soldiers explicit orders to rape, but at the same rape is a predictable and foreseeable consequence of sending armed young men to rampage amongst civilians. Also seems like there's reason to believe that Hamas wasn't inclined to stop anything like that when it happened (the "women who can have children" video, and the videos of half naked women being dragged through Gaza where no one's like "hey, why is that woman half naked?")

[Victoria Raverna]

Here are what I wrote in this thread:

Is there any evidence of systematic rape on October 7th in that? How about a single evidence? Only one.

I'm not denying that there were rape on October 7th. I just wanted to know if there is any evidence at all of systematic rape.

We all know by now that 40 beheaded babies story was totally made up. There was no beheaded babies. Not even a single one.

So I have answered the question before but seem like dishonest person like zarathud keep making things up.

[El Guapo]

Here are what I wrote in this thread:

Is there any evidence of systematic rape on October 7th in that? How about a single evidence? Only one.

I'm not denying that there were rape on October 7th. I just wanted to know if there is any evidence at all of systematic rape.

We all know by now that 40 beheaded babies story was totally made up. There was no beheaded babies. Not even a single one.

So I have answered the question before but seem like dishonest person like zarathud keep making things up.

Again, what do you mean by "systematic" (or systemic) rape?

Evidence of rape by itself is evidence of systematic rape, as the volume increases. Unless you're looking for "Rape Order No. 1" written out by a Hamas commander or something.

[Zarathud]

I’m not dishonest — I just disagree with and challenge your opinions, Victoria Raverna.

[Victoria Raverna]

Sanders is correct again:

[El Guapo]

[LawBeefaroni]

edit: christ, the full video is even worse than I thought.

If it helps a little bit, it's likely that the IDF has this body cam footage because they captured and/or killed whoever was wearing the camera.

[Alefroth]

Both attendees who spoke to NOTUS said Arab American leaders told Grenell they had three conditions for supporting Trump in November: his support for an immediate cease-fire, funding for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency — which has been the primary provider of humanitarian aid in Gaza — and a commitment to enact the so-called Leahy Laws in Gaza. (The Leahy Laws, written by former Sen. Pat Leahy of Vermont, prohibit the United States from funding foreign militaries that violate human rights.)

Lol... could they be any more naïve?

[El Guapo]

Both attendees who spoke to NOTUS said Arab American leaders told Grenell they had three conditions for supporting Trump in November: his support for an immediate cease-fire, funding for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency — which has been the primary provider of humanitarian aid in Gaza — and a commitment to enact the so-called Leahy Laws in Gaza. (The Leahy Laws, written by former Sen. Pat Leahy of Vermont, prohibit the United States from funding foreign militaries that violate human rights.)

Lol... could they be any more naïve?

I don't understand what the Trump people were thinking here. Like...either don't meet with them, with the hopes that they read into your beliefs via wishful thinking. Or meet with them and lie to them. Did they think their actual beliefs would win the leaders over?

[Alefroth]

Yeah, I was really surprised they didn't just lie. They blew a golden opportunity.

[hepcat]

Christ, the amount of naïveté in some of the Muslim community surrounding Trump is astounding. I mean, he’s on record hating on them. Why would they think he’s going to be more open to anything that would help them? He’ll gleefully send more weapons to Israel.

[waitingtoconnect]

Here are what I wrote in this thread:

Is there any evidence of systematic rape on October 7th in that? How about a single evidence? Only one.

I'm not denying that there were rape on October 7th. I just wanted to know if there is any evidence at all of systematic rape.

We all know by now that 40 beheaded babies story was totally made up. There was no beheaded babies. Not even a single one.

So I have answered the question before but seem like dishonest person like zarathud keep making things up.

Again, what do you mean by "systematic" (or systemic) rape?

Evidence of rape by itself is evidence of systematic rape, as the volume increases. Unless you're looking for "Rape Order No. 1" written out by a Hamas commander or something.

We know Hamas has an ideological view that captured female combatants and civilians are fair game just like the Kurdish women and Yazidi women were.

There are plenty of independent media outlets who have determined systematic rape occurred.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... er-attacks

Considering the guardian is overwhelming pro Palestinian in its coverage of the war I’d say that there is ample evidence significant and systemic rape as a weapon of war was used in these attacks.

Christ, the amount of naïveté in some of the Muslim community surrounding Trump is astounding. I mean, he’s on record hating on them. Why would they think he’s going to be more open to anything that would help them? He’ll gleefully send more weapons to Israel.

The Muslim ban which stopped even some Americans being able renter this country, his son in laws idea to depopulate Gaza and turn it into condos and a golf course, the proposal to strip Muslim Americans of citizenship…. (https://www.vox.com/2018/7/18/17561538/ ... orce-janus)

Useful idiots.

[Zarathud]

When Trump world can’t be bothered to lie to you, that’s a signal you’re part of their enemy list. And the MAGA leopards are coming to eat your face.

[Kurth]

Here are what I wrote in this thread:

Is there any evidence of systematic rape on October 7th in that? How about a single evidence? Only one.

I'm not denying that there were rape on October 7th. I just wanted to know if there is any evidence at all of systematic rape.

We all know by now that 40 beheaded babies story was totally made up. There was no beheaded babies. Not even a single one.

So I have answered the question before but seem like dishonest person like zarathud keep making things up.

Again, what do you mean by "systematic" (or systemic) rape?

Evidence of rape by itself is evidence of systematic rape, as the volume increases. Unless you're looking for "Rape Order No. 1" written out by a Hamas commander or something.

I’m getting frustrated by the fact that there seems to be no way for the ignore function on this forum to prevent me from having to read VR’s disgusting bullshit when people quote him. Am I missing a setting somewhere in the User Control Panel that would allow me to do that? Like, it would be great if when you ignore someone, all their posts get treated like a spoiler when quoted.

I really would like to continue to visit this thread, because the conversation is generally insightful and helps me process the horrible situation in Israel and Gaza right now. But having to see some asshole like VR come in here and excuse/justify/wave-away/minimize raping by Hamas is nauseating. I mean, seriously. Fuck him.