Kerry’s Strategies Not Relevant to Present Day World

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
Eco-Logic
Posts: 990
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:43 am

Kerry’s Strategies Not Relevant to Present Day World

Post by Eco-Logic »

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section ... ry=Opinion

Pre-emption and unilateralism are the two most frequently used terms against President George W. Bush’s foreign policy in the current presidential election campaign. Sen. John Kerry, the Democrat Party’s presidential nominee, accuses Bush of breaking with an established tradition of American foreign policy. Kerry says the US should use force only after it is attacked, and then, only in conjunction with allies, and endorsement by the United Nations. Unilateralism and pre-emption, Kerry asserts, are alien to American traditions. But are they?

Both the kind of foreign policy that Kerry offers and the one practiced by Bush after Sept. 11, 2001 have deep roots in American history. When the United States emerged as an independent nation in the 18th century, virtually the entire world was dominated by European colonial powers. The chief concern of early American leaders was to steer clear of European rivalries, and avoid trouble in their own backyard.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were anxious to keep the newly created nation out of foreign wars both as a matter of expediency and in response to pacifist sentiments preached by the Quakers at the time. Offering a peaceful life away from endless European wars was one of the attractions of the New World. Jefferson called that policy “duck and cover” which, in practice meant staying out of trouble even if that required eating a bit of humble pie. During the Napoleonic wars, for example, The United States decided to stop its maritime trade altogether so as to avoid possible clashes with the British and the French.

In 1812, however, the British attacked the United States, showing, not for the first time in history, that when a major war is fought somewhere it is bound to drag in other nations.

In August 1814 the British raided Washington, the new capital of the newly-created United States, and set The White House on fire. The surprise attack showed that “duck-and-cover” did not guarantee US security.

Secretary of State John Quincy Adams denounced “ the folly” of “ duck-and-cover” and came up with a new national-security policy that envisaged not only confrontation with actual enemies but wars of pre-emption against potential foes.

Adams concluded that the US had to abandon its low profile and become more conspicuous. Rather than fleeing from danger, the US had to identify and destroy its sources. Two centuries before George W Bush, Adams realized the danger of what we now call «rogue states». Such states could provide sanctuary for bandits and pirates, the precursors of today’s terrorists, or a foothold for hostile European powers. They, therefore, couldn’t be tolerated. The Adams doctrine found its first dramatic expression in a confrontation with Spain over Florida. Adams asked the Spanish who controlled Florida, to either properly police it or «cede it to the United States as a province.” It was in accordance with the doctrine of pre-emption that the US ended up by annexing Florida.

The Adams doctrine was adopted by other US presidents into the 20th century. President James Monroe used it as the core of his “doctrine” which defined any European intervention in the Western Hemisphere as a casus belli for the United States. President James K. Polk annexed Texas and California, and President William McKinley seized the Philippines to forestall that a European power might capture it.

Presidents Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft and Woodrow Wilson, also used similar arguments to justify pre-emptive interventions in Venezuela, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Nicaragua and ultimately Mexico. The long arm of American pre-emption even reached North Africa where a US expeditionary force raided Algiers to put an end to pirates preying on American ships in the Mediterranean.

By the middle of the 19th century, Talleyrand, the statesman who had served four successive regimes in France, had this advice for European leaders:” Europe must keep its eyes open about America that is growing every day. (The United States) is destined to become a colossal power and the day will arrive when, conscious of its force, it would want to say its word on all issues. Prudence dictates that governments in the old continent refrain from giving the United States a pretext for intervening in Europe.” That pretext was provided in the course of the First World War when the Germans tried to interrupt American shipping in the Atlantic Ocean and ended up by sucking the US into the conflict.

What followed was almost a century of American involvement in Europe, including leadership in two world wars.

Several presidents, including Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge continued to build the American military strength while staying out of conflicts beyond the Western Hemisphere.

On the eve of the Second World War, President Franklin D Roosevelt revived the “duck-and-cover” policy in the hope of staying out of conflict. Roosevelt’s choice was partly dictated by pacifist sentiments in the United States, exploited by a pro-German lobby determined to keep the Americans out until Hitler defeated Britain. The surprise Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941, forced Roosevelt out of “duck-and-cover” and into a position of leadership in the war against the Axis Powers.

Roosevelt did not practice pre-emption or unilateralism. Nor did he seek American hegemony. At Yalta he was prepared to share post-war Europe with Stalin and tried to rely on the consent of other international actors to create a stable global system.

Once the war was won, the US, under President Harry S. Truman, developed a containment policy. It was no longer possible to “duck-and-cover” in a world in which the Soviet leaders spoke of “burying capitalism” and conquering the world. At the same time, however, the US could not revive the pre-emptive doctrine of Adams that could have provoked a thermonuclear Armageddon. As a compromise, Truman developed a multilateralist policy centred on the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), strengthened by smaller alliances in the Middle East and Asia.

But even then, Truman did not completely abandon the Adams doctrine. In 1946 and 1947 he used the threat of nuclear war to persuade Stalin to stop helping Communist guerrillas in Greece and to withdraw the Red Army from northwestern Iran. The American intervention in the Korean Peninsula could also be seen as a form of pre-emption because it prevented the North Korean Communists from annexing the south.

President Richard Nixon reinterpreted containment to mean détente which, in practice, amounted to giving the USSR a new lease of life thanks to American and allied economic aid, diplomatic equal treatment, and, more importantly, an effective Soviet veto on American defense policy.

Truman’s true successor, as an innovator of foreign policy, was Ronald Reagan who, as president, revived the 19th century American tradition of “preponderant power” as opposed to a balance of power that, by definition, kept the US at the same level as its weaker Soviet adversary. Reagan developed the “rollback” doctrine with the stated aim of destroying the Soviet “Evil Empire”.

President George W. H. Bush, the father of the present president, and President Bill Clinton were closer to Harding and Coolidge than Truman and Reagan. They used American power in war but failed to use their victories to reshape the status quo in accordance with long-term American interests.

The first President Bush liberated Kuwait but left Saddam Hussein in power in Iraq, creating an unstable situation. In doing so he ignored Machiavelli’s first lesson:” Never leave an enemy wounded and alive; either make him a friend or kill him!”

President Clinton used American power in Bosnia and Kosovo, but only to achieve short-term objectives.

The current President Bush started his term without a clear national security doctrine. At times he sounded like Theodore Roosevelt echoing the “walk calmly but carry a big stick” doctrine. At others he came across as a Jeffersonian “duck-and cover” strategist.

The Sept. 11, 2001 attack forced Bush to adopt a clear strategy. He could not have chosen “duck-and-cover” at a time that a majority of Americans, furious by the treachery used against them, were calling for action. Nor could Bush have adopted a Truman-like containment because it was not clear who to contain and where. He had to revive the Adams strategy, using American power to remove sources of threat.

What Kerry is offering is a synthesis of “duck-and cover” and containment, strategies that are not relevant to the present state of the world. The American voter has a clear choice.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this article.

I pretty much agree with it.
User avatar
Exodor
Posts: 17223
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:10 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Post by Exodor »

Arab News???

There's scraping the bottom of the barrel and then there's looking under it...
User avatar
Eco-Logic
Posts: 990
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:43 am

Post by Eco-Logic »

Exodor wrote:Arab News???

There's scraping the bottom of the barrel and then there's looking under it...
LOL

Way to not comment on the content.
User avatar
The Mad Hatter
Posts: 6322
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Funkytown

Post by The Mad Hatter »

Exodor wrote:Arab News???

There's scraping the bottom of the barrel and then there's looking under it...
Why, those crazy towelheads not capable of reasonable commentary?
User avatar
Kadoth Nodens
Posts: 3271
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:53 am
Location: Zod Center

Post by Kadoth Nodens »

It doesn't make any sense.

It basically states that nearly any time the US went to war, it was part of a preemptive action & any time the US didn't get involved in a conflict, it was part of some "duck and cover" strategy. That's not the case. And even if it were, it still wouldn't make sense, because the current administration would be guilty of using "duck and cover" in every place but Iraq and Afghanistan.

I heard Bush use the phrase "Revisionist Historian" once. It's certainly an appropriate way to describe the author.
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Kerry’s Strategies Not Relevant to Present Day World

Post by Defiant »

.
Last edited by Defiant on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Fireball
Posts: 4762
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:43 pm

Post by Fireball »

Yeah, I saw that, too, Nade. That's about the most inaccurate portrayal of Roosevelt's pre-War foreign policy that I've ever seen. It's so far off the mark that it's laughable. Roosevelt was trying to find ways to get us INTO the War, and may even have allowed Pearl Harbor to occur to quiet the calls for isolationism from Republicans and conservative Democrats... to say nothing of Nazi sympathizers like Henry Ford, Charles Lindberg and the like.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
User avatar
SuperHiro
Posts: 6877
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:00 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: Kerry’s Strategies Not Relevant to Present Day World

Post by SuperHiro »

Eco-Logic wrote:
On the eve of the Second World War, President Franklin D Roosevelt revived the “duck-and-cover” policy in the hope of staying out of conflict. Roosevelt’s choice was partly dictated by pacifist sentiments in the United States, exploited by a pro-German lobby determined to keep the Americans out until Hitler defeated Britain. The surprise Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941, forced Roosevelt out of “duck-and-cover” and into a position of leadership in the war against the Axis Powers.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this article.

I pretty much agree with it.
Image
Dirt
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:17 am

Post by Dirt »

The single major cause of an Empire's fall is usually over-extension.
User avatar
Eco-Logic
Posts: 990
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:43 am

Post by Eco-Logic »

I also saw some inaccuracies, however, I agree with the primary theme.

Specifically this:
The Sept. 11, 2001 attack forced Bush to adopt a clear strategy. He could not have chosen “duck-and-cover” at a time that a majority of Americans, furious by the treachery used against them, were calling for action. Nor could Bush have adopted a Truman-like containment because it was not clear who to contain and where. He had to revive the Adams strategy, using American power to remove sources of threat.

What Kerry is offering is a synthesis of “duck-and cover” and containment, strategies that are not relevant to the present state of the world.
And I appreciate those of you who chose to actually respond with some insight, instead of post the same useless, tired, lame picture that littered too many of the threads at GG.
User avatar
SuperHiro
Posts: 6877
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:00 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Post by SuperHiro »

Come on man, don't hate on the "hunh?!" guy.

Edited to add: oops, forgot to edit Eco's comment at the end of the initial post out of my quote. Sorry Eco, the "hunh?!" was not directed at you... it was directed at the article.

But I think I've been very reasonable in dispensing the pic. I limited it to one use a day if that.
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Post by Defiant »

.
Last edited by Defiant on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dirt
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:17 am

Post by Dirt »

I think we, as a country, need to take a step back. We can't continue to just charge into every place we think harbors terrorist.
Biyobi
Posts: 5440
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:21 pm
Location: San Gabriel, CA

Post by Biyobi »

Wow, a Saudi based newspaper with an anti-Kerry slant. Will wonders ever cease?
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
The Mad Hatter
Posts: 6322
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Funkytown

Post by The Mad Hatter »

Biyobi wrote:Wow, a Saudi based newspaper with an anti-Kerry slant. Will wonders ever cease?
Actually, the paper has opinions on both sides of the presidential race. I think Eco Logic's original point is idiotic, but it's also interesting to see how quickly some of you people dismiss a source if it's an Arabic one.
User avatar
Exodor
Posts: 17223
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:10 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Post by Exodor »

The Mad Hatter wrote:Actually, the paper has opinions on both sides of the presidential race. I think Eco Logic's original point is idiotic, but it's also interesting to see how quickly some of you people dismiss a source if it's an Arabic one.
I think it's more dismissal of a commentary piece from a biased source that's being posted to troll.

Some claim that liberals are too quick to play the race card at times - perhaps they're right.
User avatar
SuperHiro
Posts: 6877
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:00 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Post by SuperHiro »

http://www.benadorassociates.com/taheri.php

I don't think he's biased either way. He has an atricle condeming Russia for their ham-handed treatment of Chechnya.

I'm trying to say this as respectful as possible: Eco does have a habit of posting commentary/"articles" from right-wing sources, but in this case it's different.
User avatar
Eco-Logic
Posts: 990
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:43 am

Post by Eco-Logic »

Exodor wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:Actually, the paper has opinions on both sides of the presidential race. I think Eco Logic's original point is idiotic, but it's also interesting to see how quickly some of you people dismiss a source if it's an Arabic one.
I think it's more dismissal of a commentary piece from a biased source that's being posted to troll.

Some claim that liberals are too quick to play the race card at times - perhaps they're right.
How the hell do you consider it trolling ole lame one?
Tareeq
Posts: 10374
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:07 pm

Post by Tareeq »

The Mad Hatter wrote:it's also interesting to see how quickly some of you people dismiss a source if it's an Arabic one.
Is it acceptable to dismiss The Arab News because it prints editorial cartoons that look like updates from Der Sturmer and Volksicher Beobachter?

You know, these cartoons:

Image

Image

(Hint, the impish rapscallion wearing a big overcoat and muttonchops next to Uncle Sam is meant to represent a Jew.)

Not to mention editorials that have quoted William Pierce (The Turner Diaries) with approval?

Cuz that's why I dismiss it.
User avatar
SuperHiro
Posts: 6877
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:00 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Post by SuperHiro »

Tareeq wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:it's also interesting to see how quickly some of you people dismiss a source if it's an Arabic one.
Is it acceptable to dismiss The Arab News because it prints editorial cartoons that look like updates from Der Sturmer and Volksicher Beobachter?

You know, these cartoons:

Image

Image

(Hint, the impish rapscallion wearing a big overcoat and muttonchops next to Uncle Sam is meant to represent a Jew.)

Not to mention editorials that have quoted William Pierce (The Turner Diaries) with approval?

Cuz that's why I dismiss it.
Holy crap.
User avatar
The Mad Hatter
Posts: 6322
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Funkytown

Post by The Mad Hatter »

Tareeq wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:it's also interesting to see how quickly some of you people dismiss a source if it's an Arabic one.
Is it acceptable to dismiss The Arab News because it prints editorial cartoons that look like updates from Der Sturmer and Volksicher Beobachter?
Based on substance yes, but somehow I think many people wouldn't look past the "Arabnews" part to dismiss this site.
User avatar
The Mad Hatter
Posts: 6322
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Funkytown

Post by The Mad Hatter »

Exodor wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:Actually, the paper has opinions on both sides of the presidential race. I think Eco Logic's original point is idiotic, but it's also interesting to see how quickly some of you people dismiss a source if it's an Arabic one.
I think it's more dismissal of a commentary piece from a biased source that's being posted to troll.
There's no such thing as an unbiased source.
Some claim that liberals are too quick to play the race card at times - perhaps they're right.
You'll have to ask a liberal. Not being one, I wouldn't know.
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Post by Defiant »

.
Last edited by Defiant on Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
The Mad Hatter
Posts: 6322
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Funkytown

Post by The Mad Hatter »

Nade wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:
Based on substance yes, but somehow I think many people wouldn't look past the "Arabnews" part to dismiss this site.
Just the way you dismissed someone dismissing the site as equating arabs with crazy towelheads?
If he actually dismissed it based on substance than my point wouldn't apply to him. That wasn't the impression I got though.
User avatar
Exodor
Posts: 17223
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:10 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Post by Exodor »

The Mad Hatter wrote: If he actually dismissed it based on substance than my point wouldn't apply to him. That wasn't the impression I got though.
The fact that you assumed my dismissal of the source was due to racism and not the obvious "issues" on that site says more about you than me.
User avatar
The Mad Hatter
Posts: 6322
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Funkytown

Post by The Mad Hatter »

Exodor wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote: If he actually dismissed it based on substance than my point wouldn't apply to him. That wasn't the impression I got though.
The fact that you assumed my dismissal of the source was due to racism and not the obvious "issues" on that site says more about you than me.
And what would it say about me, pray tell?
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Post by Defiant »

The Mad Hatter wrote:
If he actually dismissed it based on substance than my point wouldn't apply to him. That wasn't the impression I got though.
Which is exacty my point. You jumped to a conclusion that someone who dismisses a government controlled Saudi Arabian newspaper was a bigot.

How is that any different then what you accuse others of doing, that of jumping to the conclusion that if it was written by an Arab, it couldn't be a reasonable commentary.

Pot, Kettle.

Hopefully, in the future, Exodur will do a better job explaining his dismissal, and hopefully you won't be quite so quick to judge someone a bigot.
User avatar
The Mad Hatter
Posts: 6322
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Funkytown

Post by The Mad Hatter »

Nade wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:
If he actually dismissed it based on substance than my point wouldn't apply to him. That wasn't the impression I got though.
Which is exacty my point. You jumped to a conclusion that someone who dismisses a government controlled Saudi Arabian newspaper was a bigot.

How is that any different then what you accuse others of doing, that of jumping to the conclusion that if it was written by an Arab, it couldn't be a reasonable commentary.

Pot, Kettle.
I suppose that's true.
User avatar
ImLawBoy
Forum Admin
Posts: 15063
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Post by ImLawBoy »

Originally posted by Eco-Logic:
ole lame one
As far as insults go, this is a pretty tame one. Still, it's against the Code of Conduct to engage in personal attacks, and I'd appreciate it if this type of commentary did not recur.

Thanks.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16674
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Post by Zarathud »

Commenting on the article -- I think it's a flat-out wrong. First, it completely skips over the obvious analogy of Vietnam (which is very topical based on the candidate's differing experiences IN a strong defining moment of Amercian foreign policy).

Next, the article misses the clear consequence of 9/11 -- almost ALL America wanted to hunt down al-Queida and the Taliban in Afghanistan. I think that even Jimmy Carter would have justified dropping a few bombs. That was the sense of not just America but the entire world -- someone had to pay. And the Taliban had just asked for an ass-kicking by protecting Osama bin Laden.

Third, the article doesn't consider Kerry's (evolved/flip-flop) criticism of the Bush administration boils down to rushing to war which had NOTHING to do with al-Queida. It makes sense (not just for political convenience) that the authority to wage war was needed as a diplomatic tool to continue the long-running policy of Iraqi containment and provide provide a real threat forcing continued WMD inspections. The many Bush mistakes (no WMDs, no al-Queida connection) are broad-based (and valid, IMO) criticisms. Kerry's background seems to be that of an internationalist, not an isolationist with a "duck and cover" foreign policy.

Now, I think the real, damning question should be -- why didn't Congress (and Kerry in particular) realize that President G.W. Bush would use the pretext of WMDs to invade Iraq after 9/11 and previously labeling the nation part of an "axis of evil"? The invasion of Iraq should have suprised nobody based on the background of those in the Bush administration. Only Colin Powell seemed hesitant on invading Iraq (which makes me respect the man even more, by faithfully playing on a team which has abused him and generally ignored his input).
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
Post Reply