LOST 2 - Smoke and Mirrors: Game Over: Evil Triumphs!

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:18 am

Scoop20906 wrote:OK, I get it.

Because of the Man in Black's uber power to attack any hex, no one wants to give up their position and that leaves me in a bad position tonight as I am the only person to give away my Hex position. If I survive the night everyone is going to think I'm a candidate regardless if I was attacked by the MiB or not. I don't even know if this is a good thing or not.

That basically leaves us secretly moving around on the island and keeping information to ourselves. This is very different from the last Lost game.

Also, if no one is willing to reveal the current Hex, I doubt they want to give away the future Hex either. Basically its every man for himself at this point.

Yep. As I said earlier, it comes down to someone stepping up in your group saying in the forum "let's move south then southeast from our hex" and everyone that wants to stay in the group has to agree.

redrun · Post by **redrun** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:45 am

LordMortis wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:once everyone has had a chance to declare buddy or decline to answer we can decide how to coordinate or to wander off alone (potentially)... As it may help to discover more of the island quickly. The risks are different in the past and present... And with 2 move versus 1 we could map out quite a bit across the time frames by going to different hexes.
Or we could ask if more knowledge is power and who benefits the most just blurting out information (WM) and whether it's worth it for the losties and evil to blurt out information anyway. Quite frankly, as far as I can tell, lying for the sake of lying is pretty much the thing to do. I see no reason for WM to arm the losties and evil when they already can coordinate. For that reason, I see no reason for the losties to arm WM and evil when they can't corrdinate and I see no reason for evil to arm WM and the losties when they don't need to coordinate.

Now I could be wrong but I haven't seen any reason to make me think that way.

-- I'm not 100% in agreement here, but I'm tending to think the same way as LordMortis. Widdershins try to get into pairs (easily done via private forum) and only announce the stuff they don't care about (publicly that is). If we really work at announcing what square we're going to end up in (I'm looking at you Scoop), the MiB will have an excellent kill rate with at least two targets a night. There is at least one square (Mr. Jacob) that I don't want the MiB finding easily.

-- The MiB can't start recruting until his lost his current buddies. While this will make end game difficult, it does give us serveral turns where we don't need to worry about folks switching sides. So, my recommendations:
1. Don't announce what square you're going to end up in, especially if you're pairing off. Singles might want to announce to show us the squares that kill & risk that the MiB will take the shot at a single.
2. If you want to join movement with someone, just announce direction and speed, and the folks in your square will know where you'll end up. For the folks wandering alone, it means you'll have to hope to run into someone along the way. But, there are a couple of squares that kill - so if someone has better thoughts in this area, please speak up!
3. Could a real lostie please find the station that sends a message to teammates ASAP and send out the location. Do include things like your name, what you've found, who you've seen (especially if they seem to be good at pairing off without having to publicly talk about it!). I'm not sure if folks should keep their character secret - I don't see a big gain from folks knowing who each other are, but I do see a downside to a turncoat turning this info over to the MiB.
4. Don't run! Don't move more then one square in these first couple of turns. Don't leave your square then re-enter it. That has you moving through two squares, which increases your chances of find the squares that will kill. Right now we know as little about the square next to you as we do about the square you're in.
5. Posting something other then fluff would be appricated, even if it increases the odds that someone will use it to find an excuse to get you killed.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:55 am

redrun wrote: Singles might want to announce to show us the squares that kill & risk that the MiB will take the shot at a single.

Or that someone with a knife (Six people right now, two of which are WM and know their allies) will hop in their square and use their one shot kill.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:06 am

I'm so lost in this game I'm voting skip

I'm alone in my hex, but I'm not certain if I should share where, so until I get comfortable with the game I won't be sharing much information

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:26 am

Lassr wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:OK, I get it.

Because of the Man in Black's uber power to attack any hex, no one wants to give up their position and that leaves me in a bad position tonight as I am the only person to give away my Hex position. If I survive the night everyone is going to think I'm a candidate regardless if I was attacked by the MiB or not. I don't even know if this is a good thing or not.

That basically leaves us secretly moving around on the island and keeping information to ourselves. This is very different from the last Lost game.

Also, if no one is willing to reveal the current Hex, I doubt they want to give away the future Hex either. Basically its every man for himself at this point.
Yep. As I said earlier, it comes down to someone stepping up in your group saying in the forum "let's move south then southeast from our hex" and everyone that wants to stay in the group has to agree.

Does that need to be me since I am the only one to report my position?

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:35 am

Unfortunately the end of registration period is going out with a bang. I'm trying to keep up, but have been slowed down with long days and whiny students. Bear with me people.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:23 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:
Lassr wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:OK, I get it.

Because of the Man in Black's uber power to attack any hex, no one wants to give up their position and that leaves me in a bad position tonight as I am the only person to give away my Hex position. If I survive the night everyone is going to think I'm a candidate regardless if I was attacked by the MiB or not. I don't even know if this is a good thing or not.

That basically leaves us secretly moving around on the island and keeping information to ourselves. This is very different from the last Lost game.

Also, if no one is willing to reveal the current Hex, I doubt they want to give away the future Hex either. Basically its every man for himself at this point.
Yep. As I said earlier, it comes down to someone stepping up in your group saying in the forum "let's move south then southeast from our hex" and everyone that wants to stay in the group has to agree.
Does that need to be me since I am the only one to report my position?

it has to be you for your group since you are alone...

Everyone knows who is in the hex with them, if someone from your group (in the hex with you) steps with direction everyone that wants to follow will follow

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:25 pm

Mr Bubbles wrote: Bear with me people.

glad you didn't say "Bare with me"

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:44 pm

Lassr wrote:
Mr Bubbles wrote: Bear with me people.
glad you didn't say "Bare with me"

Or even worse, be bare with me.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:59 pm

skip

I very nearly typed "Scoop" instead of "skip" out of habit.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:16 pm

Brendan wrote: skip

I very nearly typed "Scoop" instead of "skip" out of habit.

I think that may be 8 skips. 9 is majority.

redrun · Post by **redrun** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:48 pm

Lassr wrote: I think that may be 8 skips. 9 is majority.

-- For tonight. In the Past, I'm going south. In the Present, I'm going to take my chances.

Kenetickid · Post by **Kenetickid** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:52 pm

Lassr wrote:
Brendan wrote: skip

I very nearly typed "Scoop" instead of "skip" out of habit.
I think that may be 8 skips. 9 is majority.

I am all willing to vote to skip today, but I think we need a bit more talking to get a solid plan going. I am all for giving directions as I stated to keep "groups" together. With no beginning hex listed and just directions the only one that will be able to pin point peple will be Desmnd as he is the only one given a full list of peoples current locations.

Desmond is a failsafe, which means that he has a special relationship with time, space, electromagnetism. As a result, he almost always knows where every player is located on the Past map. In addition, he is able to remove the stopper at the Heart of the Island without assistance, although the deed will kill him.

Once site-specific and person-specific orders have been resolved for both maps, the Moderator will mark the transition from night to day in the thread. Each player will receive a population manifest for his current hex, Desmond will (on all mornings except Monday) receive a manifest of players' locations in the Past, and any effects from the previous night (such as death or destruction) will be revealed. (copied right out of the rules)

He will always know everyones location on the past map and will get that information every morning. That will give him the locations of everyone after their movements so he can easily back track from their current (destination) Hex to where they were located the day before. So I think that any public information will not only help the winddens, but it will help the Losties as well because Desmond will have all of the public information that is shared AND he will also beable to track the movements of every person as well.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:26 pm

HOLD UP on anymore SKIP Votes, please.

I don't think we have a plan for tonight yet.

Ok, can someone please join me in my Hex 11 tomorrow? (thats the only coordination I can think to try now)

GRUND, if we stay in our Hex (no movement order) do we automatically explore the Hex and find what is there or are we forced to leave and then come back? Also, if we pass through a Hex with a well or something bad to experience that effect or are we simply moving through with no effects?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:41 pm

I'm having issues with all the group movement due to the fact that some of you may be standing with the MiB so announcing the group is going "this way" tells him where a nice juicy target is going to be. Not that I have a solution for that.

Is the MiB immune to his own attack?

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:47 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:HOLD UP on anymore SKIP Votes, please.

I don't think we have a plan for tonight yet.

Need more time to talk things over behind the scenes?

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:52 pm

In all (more?) seriousness though. We've had orders for since Monday. That's a day to mull things over. You'd think people would have expressed an opinion if they had one by now.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:57 pm

I'm beginning to think everyone should be on their own, this game is so different from the other Lost game. The other game got boring to the folks that were being directed what to do. Maybe everyone should go free and have fun.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:00 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:HOLD UP on anymore SKIP Votes, please.

I don't think we have a plan for tonight yet.
Need more time to talk things over behind the scenes?

Dude. We got all these people on the island and no plan whatsoever. People should decide whether we are going to try and coordination our movements to cover the island pair up so we don't blunder into traps

OR

We decide everyone goes it alone until we find ways to coordinate secretly.

I understand the second option is probably the way to go but NO one is talking about how we can win the game. I understand their is paranoia at work here but we need to work together to off the MiB. Strangely no one is even discussing that.

I made a mistake by exposing my Hex position and I will probably pay for it by the MiB killing me tonight. It annoys me that I might be out before the game even begins considering how cool the rulez are. After going over and over the rulez I see no reason for me to not off me tonight. I can only hope I'm actually a candidate or that Jack can revive me later once the temple is found.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:04 pm

Scoop20906 wrote: I understand their is paranoia at work here but we need to work together to off the MiB. Strangely no one is even discussing that.

strangely, you didn't mention stopping the Widmore team also.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:05 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:After going over and over the rulez I see no reason for me to not off me tonight.

Maybe I've got you all wrong?

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:09 pm

Lassr wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote: I understand their is paranoia at work here but we need to work together to off the MiB. Strangely no one is even discussing that.
strangely, you didn't mention stopping the Widmore team also.

Thats because Team Lostie and Team Wedmore don't have a mega kill option like Team MiB has and I'm the only dude with the crosshairs on me at the moment. We do need to destroy the beechcraft as well and they would be part of coordinate a search which no one seems willing to try and do.

Funny you didn't bring that up until now.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:09 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:After going over and over the rulez I see no reason for me to not off me tonight.
Maybe I've got you all wrong?

Typo. Again.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:55 pm

Well, it would appear we are in for a wild night then. We could lose up to twelve people tonight. Three together in a MiB attack or a pair of smoke monsters, or a couple doubles for the same, one lonely staff, and four guns. Leaving a MiB and three others. Good luck folks...

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:00 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Well, it would appear we are in for a wild night then. We could lose up to twelve people tonight. Three together in a MiB attack or a pair of smoke monsters, or a couple doubles for the same, one lonely staff, and four guns. Leaving a MiB and three others. Good luck folks...

That would be impressive. Your suggestion?

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:15 pm

Scoop, quit going all TaylorScoop on us. All you have to do to not be the MiBs target is make him guess where you will go, instead of announcing it to the world. Were I you, I would not go back to hex #11 this turn.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:22 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:Well, it would appear we are in for a wild night then. We could lose up to twelve people tonight. Three together in a MiB attack or a pair of smoke monsters, or a couple doubles for the same, one lonely staff, and four guns. Leaving a MiB and three others. Good luck folks...
That would be impressive. Your suggestion?

i already made a call for coordination. That would eliminate activiating either smoke monster in the past and the staff death in the present. But without 100% cooperation it instead increases the chances of one of the smoke monsters hitting more people. It makes us vulnerable to MiB (moreso, anyway). So I guess the only suggestion I have left is DON'T SHOOT ANYONE. To my hexmate: I am headed west and south.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:26 pm

theohall wrote:Scoop, quit going all TaylorScoop on us. All you have to do to not be the MiBs target is make him guess where you will go, instead of announcing it to the world. Were I you, I would not go back to hex #11 this turn.

Order of resolution has the MiB attacking before the move so having given his location he is already screwed. Which means we are going to need to find the scanner local and scan his body to see if we should revive him or (and here I lean the same way LM seems to be) leave him dead and let other worry about trying to fix him while knowing we would need to off him again if they do and they will know they need to off him again if we do.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:28 pm

theohall wrote:Scoop, quit going all TaylorScoop on us. All you have to do to not be the MiBs target is make him guess where you will go, instead of announcing it to the world. Were I you, I would not go back to hex #11 this turn.

unless I misread the order of events, both the MiB and the guns are used before moving. So where you are NOW, not where you're headed. Scoop better hope he's a candidate. Unless of course he's on Team Evil with redrun.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:28 pm

Chaosraven wrote:
LordMortis wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:Well, it would appear we are in for a wild night then. We could lose up to twelve people tonight. Three together in a MiB attack or a pair of smoke monsters, or a couple doubles for the same, one lonely staff, and four guns. Leaving a MiB and three others. Good luck folks...
That would be impressive. Your suggestion?
i already made a call for coordination. That would eliminate activiating either smoke monster in the past and the staff death in the present. But without 100% cooperation it instead increases the chances of one of the smoke monsters hitting more people. It makes us vulnerable to MiB (moreso, anyway). So I guess the only suggestion I have left is DON'T SHOOT ANYONE. To my hexmate: I am headed west and south.

Trouble with trying to coordinate right now is that many of us have nobody to coordinate with. I'm alone. I'm not willing to paint the target on myself that Scoop painted on himself so I can not say exactly where I am nor where I would be headed to.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:57 pm

NOTE: My workplace has blocked OO in the latest round of filtering, so I'll only be able to catch up on the thread and interact with questions and events after about 5pm each weekday. Weekends I'll be more flexible.

Just an FYI so you won't think I'm deliberately inattentive.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:01 pm

Lassr wrote:spreadsheet doesn't copy over very well to the forum.

Try putting the content between

Code: Select all

 tags. It'll preserve the monospace font.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:01 pm

Could be worse... You could be one of three people in a hex where one of them is the MiB

Arcanis · Post by **Arcanis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:03 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:NOTE: My workplace has blocked OO in the latest round of filtering, so I'll only be able to catch up on the thread and interact with questions and events after about 5pm each weekday. Weekends I'll be more flexible.

Just an FYI so you won't think. I'm deliberately inattentive.

We know you are intentionally inattentive of us, but it is ok.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:05 pm

Are there any sites that people would be advised to reveal? I'm thinking it doesn't harm castaways to globally announce the location of the pneumatic tube dump, yes? Obviously you wouldn't necessarily announce "the tube dump is hex X!" while standing in it, but once you're a safe distance away, perhaps? Widmorians don't care about it because they have their sea-cruht forum, but for castaways, it'd be good to know?

Also maybe the heart of the island? If a candidate finds it, why wouldn't they broadcast it to everyone? The widdins want to contain or off the MiB, and castaways want to kill him, so there's a commonality of purpose there.

To anyone in my hex, I'm moving SE.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:07 pm

Remus West wrote:
theohall wrote:Scoop, quit going all TaylorScoop on us. All you have to do to not be the MiBs target is make him guess where you will go, instead of announcing it to the world. Were I you, I would not go back to hex #11 this turn.
Order of resolution has the MiB attacking before the move so having given his location he is already screwed. Which means we are going to need to find the scanner local and scan his body to see if we should revive him or (and here I lean the same way LM seems to be) leave him dead and let other worry about trying to fix him while knowing we would need to off him again if they do and they will know they need to off him again if we do.

I actually haven't given any real thought to reviving strategies. I'm more on the how do we keep as many people living as long as we can thought. When I think about coordinated movement, I think about 6 people with guns. I think about two of them not caring who they shoot because they know their team mates. I don't think of the MiB as the most powerful night killer. He is in the dark. He doesn't know if he'll hit anything, let alone what he's looking for. He doesn't want to shoot his team mates and he can't shoot most of the losties. That actually makes him a pretty a decent lostie ally for the first portion of the game killing wise. OTOH, we do need to fear his convert ability. After a few non evil day kills, he might very well control the vote.

While trying to get into groups is nice, assassination powers in this game are big.

* Two of the Losties, Kate and Sawyer, have the one-time power to kill a player. This takes place by night and the target is specified (to the Moderator by PM!) by player name, not role name. The shot is not public, and the death is indistinguishable from any other deaths. The target must be someone who was in the same hex as the shooter on that day. The shot may take place either in the Past or in the Present.

* Laying explosive traps. Any member of this team who leaves behind dynamite or C-4 has the option of setting it as a trap for the next person who enters the trapped hex alone. (Entry in a group, or in multiple parties, will not set off the trap since people will be paying attention to one another rather than exploring deeply enough to set off the trap.)

* Two members of Team Widmore, Zoe and Naomi, have the one-time power to kill a player. This takes place by night and the target is specified (to the Moderator by PM!) by player name, not role name. The shot is not public, and the death is indistinguishable from any other deaths. The target must be someone who was in the same hex as the shooter on that day. The shot may take place either in the Past or in the Present.

* Up to 2 times, the Man in Black may force the conversion of another player (by name). The convert then joins this team. The conversion and hex-kill are mutually exclusive.

As long as Ben is on Team Evil, Ben may use his knife on any other player with whom he shares a hex at nightfall, as long as there are no witnesses. If the other player is a Candidate, the Candidate will die. Any non-Candidate stabbing victim will survive the assault and will learn Ben's identity.

Claire has an axe with a fearsome edge, and she may use it on the discovered Kate if they share a Present hex at nightfall. (She may not axe Kate in the Past.)

That's a lot of people who can do some killing and can do it in a calculated way when you arm them with calculations especially when over 1/3 of the game can calculate behind the scenes in a coordinated effort.

Don't be surprised to see me lie when you press me for truthiness.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:08 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:GRUND, if we stay in our Hex (no movement order) do we automatically explore the Hex and find what is there or are we forced to leave and then come back?

There's no such thing as "staying in one's hex". On the Present map, everyone must move 1 or 2 hexes if it is possible to do so. Therefore, the only ways to "stay" in the same hex when it's possible to leave are

(a) to leave and then come back, or
(b) to leave in the direction of a barrier that impedes your movement.

Assume that we're talking about an unidentified starting hex. In case (a), the identity of that starting/landing hex would be discovered (because it would've been re-entered from elsewhere). In case (b) the identity of the site would not be discovered.

Scoop20906 wrote:Also, if we pass through a Hex with a well or something bad to experience that effect or are we simply moving through with no effects?

Passing through a hex has no effect; the only issue there is whether the hex-sides through which a player tries to move are blocked by sonic barriers. To trigger the effects of a hex (i.e., to "explore" an unknown hex or "revisit" a known hex), the player must (a) enter from elsewhere, and (b) stop there.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:09 pm

Remus West wrote:Is the MiB immune to his own attack?

Yes.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:15 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:Passing through a hex has no effect; the only issue there is whether the hex-sides through which you try to move are blocked by sonic barriers. To trigger the effects of a hex (i.e., to "explore" an unknown hex or "revisit" a known hex), the player must (a) enter from elsewhere, and (b) stop there.

So, I presume if you intend to move two hexes, but get blocked after moving one, you trigger the effect of the one you get stuck in?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:18 pm

Brendan wrote:So, I presume if you intend to move two hexes, but get blocked after moving one, you trigger the effect of the one you get stuck in?

Correct. An attempt to move 2 spaces with only the latter blocked will result in a move of 1 space instead of 2.

Blocked is blocked; non-blocked is non-blocked; finished moving is finished moving. This also implies that there will be no "plan b" for a player who learns that his way is blocked.