Octopus Overlords

Zarathud wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:13 pm Those on government assistance to make ends meet are not going to prosper under a Republican system with no economic ideas other than graft and selfishness

You mean like the way they are currently prospering under a Democratic system?
Damn, I need to get me some of that, because being a working schmuck under a Democratic system sure as hell aint being prosperous for me!!

We aren't under a Democratic system. McConnell saw to that.

This is the problem with the Democrats – oh we could've passed this but it wouldn't have mattered! They are addicted to losing. Republicans are evil, but effective. Those are your choices as a voter in the US. A Turkey voting for thanksgiving or Christmas. Only a few of us get pardoned.

We knew the Roe v Wade decision ahead of time. It was leaked. And then it comes out, and what is the response of the Democratic party? Nancy Pelosi reads a sad poem and asks for a $15 campaign donation.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:40 pm

Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:11 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:58 pm

Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:39 pm The only thing that saved his bacon was a HISTORIC GOTV effort by a black woman in Georgia, who set up a coalition of marginalized people who literally made that knifes edge difference that got Biden into office.

How many violent acts did she commit? How many people did she lock up on RICO charges?

She was dealing with a completely different set of circumstances. Apples. Oranges.

The point is, you can affect the outcome without resorting to tyranny.

My point would be, the Dem's got their president, their house and their senate and they still managed to fuck the outcome. I'd say by this point it would be hopeless to try the same thing over and over again. It obviously doesn't work. I'm not calling for violence. I'm calling to try something *anything* else. Maybe the R's wrecked the system to the point to where only tyranny is going to work for now. It sure seems like it.

They did not get their Senate. Manchin and Sinema made damn sure of that.

Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:33 pm My point would be, the Dem's got their president, their house and their senate and they still managed to fuck the outcome. I'd say by this point it would be hopeless to try the same thing over and over again. It obviously doesn't work. I'm not calling for violence. I'm calling to try something *anything* else. Maybe the R's wrecked the system to the point to where only tyranny is going to work for now. It sure seems like it.

It's pointless to explain to you why the Dems don't actually have the Senate.

As for the system, you voted for tyranny once already. Please abstain from doing so again.

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:16 pm

Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:33 pm My point would be, the Dem's got their president, their house and their senate and they still managed to fuck the outcome. I'd say by this point it would be hopeless to try the same thing over and over again. It obviously doesn't work. I'm not calling for violence. I'm calling to try something *anything* else. Maybe the R's wrecked the system to the point to where only tyranny is going to work for now. It sure seems like it.

It's pointless to explain to you why the Dems don't actually have the Senate.

As for the system, you voted for tyranny once already. Please abstain from doing so again.

Ya know every time you hang that "voted for tyranny" coat on me, while saying very little to address my very real issues... I find that coat fits a little better. Oh don't worry. I'm STILL in a safe state. You won't have to worry about my hampering you beautiful narrow minded scolds as you finger wag away at the people you ignored for ages telling them to GOTV and organize for the "blue no matter who" geriocrats. The same people who can't be arsed to even make it easier for the sharecroppers to vote or have their votes count or protect our most basic rights as you madly try to stem the tide of extremism that threatens to blow down our door. Go ahead, scold away, but I think you'll find there's no stuffing the shit back in the goose.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:37 pm They did not get their Senate. Manchin and Sinema made damn sure of that.

If Biden had threatened those two traitors with prosecution for everything they did criminally our country might not be in this situation. God forbid biden rustle the silverware and decorum aboard the titanic as it goes down.

nm about everything I said. The primary problem we have in a GOTV situation, is we do that we organize... and then after the vote we pack up and leave. What if we did more? What if we walked into those rotted out structures that were talked about in that article, and we stayed? Remember "Red Aid"?

What if we used those rotted out local dem offices and we stayed snd organized to make peoples lives better? Food, jobs and community? What if we didn't just abandon those voters after we got what we wanted.. or even after we lost?

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:45 pm

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:52 pm What we are going through now is not worse than any of those things.

It's not worse, but it's got worse potential than any except, possibly, the days leading up to the Civil War.

I don't even think comparing the two eras is even all that useful. Our society looks absolutely nothing like it did then. People today are under different pressures and are living through different hardships. What the point of this sort of analysis? Is it useful that we could say, "Don't get upset about your struggles, at least you have indoor plumbing, electricity, and aren't working in a barrel shop? Aren't you glad you aren't being forced to work the fields? Forget that you live in a time where hope for a future at all is dying."

The disaster here isn't anger or a lack of humanity, it's a calculated plan to remove the ability to redress those things. And once those mechanisms are removed (and we're standing now on the knife's edge of that removal), it isn't just a matter of changing peoples' minds any more. Look at protests in China to see just how effective changing minds is once the safeties on the government is removed.

This is what people don't get. The risk we face. We can argue about whether it was worse than some past time. It doesn't matter much since we face a slew of significant crises right now and the risks are being actualized.

And the reality is that even if the government wasn't turning in this dark direction, American society has degraded significantly in the face of a slew of negative moral, economic, and political factors. It is not new that American society is unequal and cruel. However, it generally got better for each generation. That looks to be over.

The young are driven hard to prepare to work and then hit adulthood with jobs with overinflated qualifications, poor pay, impossible living costs, etc. Pre-pandemic life expectancy had already begun to reverse itself as people killed themselves with drugs, alcohol, and guns. And ultimately they live seeing the real-time impacts of climate change and still see efforts that barely even begin to approach what is needed to be done. All under the control of the same folks who broke everything to begin with.

The pandemic made this dynamic even worse. The pressures that were unleashed by the forces unmaking this nation were exacerbated. That is what fueled anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers. This has likely furthered the dire prognosis of even more economic hardship.

It isn't hard to connect the dots why people have become so nihilistic. Especially young people who aren't prepared or even have the capability to process and deal with these problems. And as things get worse, they'll just compound. It is hard to break negative feedback loop cycles especially when you have a political system that inherently stops even efforts to maintain the status quo. We're in a spiral. I don't know where this will go but it doesn't look to be good.

Drazzil wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:34 am
Ya know every time you hang that "voted for tyranny" coat on me, while saying very little to address my very real issues...

It’s important to do so because it highlights the hypocrisy in your posts yelling at everyone else when they don’t follow your suggestions. You are literally part of the reason we are where we are. You’re so certain you’re right all the time, but facts prove that to be a false sense of security on your part.

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:43 am

Drazzil wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:34 am
Ya know every time you hang that "voted for tyranny" coat on me, while saying very little to address my very real issues...

It’s important to do so because it highlights the hypocrisy in your posts yelling at everyone else when they don’t follow your suggestions. You are literally part of the reason we are where we are. You’re so certain you’re right all the time, but facts prove that to be a false sense of security on your part.

Everyone is part of the reason we are where we are. You keeo throwing the fact that I voted for Trump the first time in a safe state in my face, as an excuse to ignore and downplay everything I say. I don't mean to yell or be shrill. If I come across that way I'm sorry. I'm trying to make sense of all of this and I don't see us (any of us) getting out of this without doing some pretty antiestablishment things. The longer we wait the worse we're gonna have to be.

I enjoyed this quote I read today from an article by Mitt Romney of all people. It reminded me of this thread:

"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple and wrong." - H.L. Mencken

Creating conditions where Trump or another authoritarian can be hailed as a liberator? Stop pouring gasoline on the house, and stop hoping for someone to light a match.

Don’t say everyone is responsible. I didn’t cause Trump. Voted against him, and left the Republican Party over 20 years ago in opposition to these conservative extremists. I’ve warned against them since the Clinton years.

I remember in college when my wife spent several weekends a month doing clinic defenses, putting her body on the line to stop anti-abortion forces. She’s been a civilian volunteer with victim support and CAPS. Hell, she’s even calling herself a Republican to be a poll judge and protect local elections.

We’ve been active in our local wards for over 10 years. We’ve contributed to my wife’s classmates who were running for office as Democrats in Indiana. Once they even had a chance.

What the fuck have you done, Drazzil?

Zarathud wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:41 am Creating conditions where Trump or another authoritarian can be hailed as a liberator? Stop pouring gasoline on the house, and stop hoping for someone to light a match.

Don’t say everyone is responsible. I didn’t cause Trump. Voted against him, and left the Republican Party over 20 years ago in opposition to these conservative extremists. I’ve warned against them since the Clinton years.

I remember in college when my wife spent several weekends a month doing clinic defenses, putting her body on the line to stop anti-abortion forces. She’s been a civilian volunteer with victim support and CAPS. Hell, she’s even calling herself a Republican to be a poll judge and protect local elections.

We’ve been active in our local wards for over 10 years. We’ve contributed to my wife’s classmates who were running for office as Democrats in Indiana. Once they even had a chance.

What the fuck have you done, Drazzil?

Not as much as all that, I'll admit.

What the actual hell was Biden thinking? Seriously.

Edit: I'm also incredibly dispirited by Democrats saying the press corps is overreacting. We don't need a cult to respond to MAGA and Biden deserves criticism for validating this despicable despot.

It's probably selling well in Saudi Arabia though. MBS fist bumped a guy who's president of a burgeoning fascist theocracy.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:20 pm It's probably selling well in Saudi Arabia though. MBS fist bumped a guy who's president of a burgeoning fascist theocracy.

Good point. It's probably why they staged it.

It would probably be child's play to photoshop a bone saw into MBS's hand there.

Totally stupid.

At least validating murder was worth it. Oh I mean the whole trip was a complete failure. As expected. Many thought he was going to be played by the Saudis per the HuffPo piece before the trip. We have to start facing that Biden is a disaster of a President. Following another disaster.



Huffington Post

Before President Joe Biden left for the Middle East this week, he and his team spent weeks trying to publicly and privately defend the most controversial part of his trip: his visit to Saudi Arabia. With the Saudi stopover imminent ― Biden arrives in the kingdom on Friday ― that effort looks like a clear failure.

Within the administration, skeptical national security staffers see the Saudi stint as hypocritical and unlikely to boost American interests ― with some calling it a “Summit for Autocracy” in a pointed reference to Biden’s “Summit for Democracy” last December, according to one U.S. official. White House outreach to human rights groups and progressive activists left multiple recipients doubtful that Biden would do anything to rein in alarming Saudi repression. And on Capitol Hill, many of Biden’s fellow Democrats believe he is set to be played by the kingdom and its de facto ruler, Crown Prince Muhammed bin Salman.

Key lawmakers working on global affairs are concerned about “how little the administration is getting in return for an open-armed, public embrace of MBS,” said a senior congressional aide, using a common nickname for the prince. Most experts agree the visit will be far more beneficial for the Saudis than the United States; Riyadh is unlikely to offer Biden meaningful help on his priorities, like lowering global oil prices and limiting the Middle East influence of China and Russia, they say.

This is why the Democrats fail. Disagreements turn into name calling turn into undermining because Biden isn’t pure.

They’re dealing with Iran’s nuclear capability and Israel saying they might go beyond sabotage if necessary. Before the trip they’re blaming Biden for not getting anything. We’ll, he’s not getting anything until he speaks to Saudi leaders. They’re not good people, but they’re what we’ve got to limit Iran and get onboard if Israel acts more overtly. And Biden has to show he’s doing something about gas prices. Instead it’s drowned out by this backbiting. WTF.

The problem I see here isn't primarily about lack of loyalty. It's in there but this causation is wrong IMO. My take is that in balance Biden has repeatedly demonstrated poor judgement by taking big risks with low reward. I dragged out that HuffPost piece mostly because I wanted to show that he was even forewarned of the danger, if he was listening. Lots of folks saw the reality that our soft power is diminished, that Biden was changing his stance on human rights issues that undercut our credibility (to wit, our position on MBS), and ultimately that the trip wasn't going to be worth the risks.

They’re dealing with Iran’s nuclear capability and Israel saying they might go beyond sabotage if necessary. Before the trip they’re blaming Biden for not getting anything. We’ll, he’s not getting anything until he speaks to Saudi leaders. They’re not good people, but they’re what we’ve got to limit Iran and get onboard if Israel acts more overtly.

Sure - sometimes you have to weigh risk with potential reward. And to be fair Trump is the reason Biden is left with what's appears to be considerably less soft power in the region. The Saudis no longer have a transactional President with a corrupt family that they can cut dirty deals with.

Still, a fist bump later with MBS for the Saudi propaganda corps and we see the worst end of those risks played out. The press corps here is rightly outraged, Biden looks like a sucker, and the despots got validated. Ugly stuff.

And Biden has to show he’s doing something about gas prices. Instead it’s drowned out by this backbiting. WTF.

This gets to the reward side. Was taking the risk covered by a reward big enough to take it? That's hard to say. One thing I'd consider though is that he put himself in this tricky spot to succeed from the jump. He took a hard position on MBS when he ran. His team spent considerable time debating this with stakeholders. He knew this risk in particular was acute. I would have figured he would not make the trip unless he had something tangible lined up. That appears to not be the case.

Into that murky situation, Biden and his team looked to change the story on energy. What's strange is that Saudi Arabia is running about 10M barrels right now and maxes out somewhere 12M. So they have some room to expand capacity but 2M per day is probably not enough to change the storyline. Perhaps they were looking for a timing effect. In this case, the plot line would be Saudi increases production, the summer driving season ends around the same time, demand loosens while supply comes up, and a reprieve in time for mid-terms. There might be some plausible play there.

Still it came down to rolling loaded dice, knowing they were loaded, and still rolling hoping to get a lucky break. He has been losing a lot of those sorts of die rolls. And everyone is telling him to stop. That's why he is seeing so much disloyalty.

I'll echo Zarathud's comment about this trip and gas prices and add that the Biden team probably saw most of the potential pitfalls of doing this, but they know they are getting absolutely hammered on the domestic front wrt gas prices (whether his fault or not) and they thought he had to do "something" visible. This was that something. They know or think that voters care more about what they pay at the pump than they do about a hazy memory of a journalist ("was he even American?") killed somewhere allegedly by this Saudi government for some reason...

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:42 am I'll echo Zarathud's comment this trip and gas prices and add that the Biden team probably saw most of the potential pitfalls of doing this, but they know they are getting absolutely hammered on the domestic front wrt gas prices (whether his fault or not) and they thought he had to do "something" visible. This was that something. They know or think that voters care more about what they pay at the pump than they do about a hazy memory of a journalist ("was he even American?") killed somewhere allegedly by this Saudi government for some reason...

I get that but no one cares if he tried. They care if actual prices fall. There was little chance it would work. The bigger problem here is that Biden just signaled weakness to our adversaries for a useless high risk domestic political stunt that everyone knows wouldn't work.

Further it illustrates fundamental problems. Our power is diminished and Biden has terrible judgement. We will continue to see adversary nations challenge him because they have increased confidence they'll be able to best him individually and a divided US.

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:50 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:42 am I'll echo Zarathud's comment this trip and gas prices and add that the Biden team probably saw most of the potential pitfalls of doing this, but they know they are getting absolutely hammered on the domestic front wrt gas prices (whether his fault or not) and they thought he had to do "something" visible. This was that something. They know or think that voters care more about what they pay at the pump than they do about a hazy memory of a journalist ("was he even American?") killed somewhere allegedly by this Saudi government for some reason...

I get that but no one cares if he tried. They care if actual prices fall. There was little chance it would work. The bigger problem here is that Biden just signaled weakness to our adversaries for a useless high risk domestic political stunt that everyone knows wouldn't work.

Further it illustrates fundamental problems. Our power is diminished and Biden has terrible judgement. We will continue to see adversary nations challenge him because they have increased confidence they'll be able to best him individually and a divided US.

You seem to be thinking from a "real outcomes" perspective.

Consider this as one possible scenario as his cabinet was considering this trip:
Cabinet person: "Sir, people are fuming that you don't SEEM to be doing anything about the price of gas. We are losing X points per day in polling because of this one issue alone. We have to DO something."
Biden: "OK, what can we DO?"
Cabinet: "About the price of gas? Realistically, sir? Not much. You ran on a platform that is counter to the oil companies' interests, and they know this, so they refuse to even talk to us. Unless you want to go back on what you said about increasing regs on oil companies and going after pipeline projects? We have to pivot to make it LOOK like we are doing something"
Biden: Give me some options.
Cabinet: "well, it's fraught with non gas-related political pitfalls, but we COULD schedule a meeting for you with Saudi Arabia. It would look like you are trying to do something about gas prices."
Biden: Book it.

But it’s stupid to look for things that look like you are trying if you know %100 that it will just look like you are trying and failing.


He would be better off going but telling people he’s doing it because nothing is off the table, but that he’s basically certain it won’t help with prices, and explain why. He has all the time he needs in front of a mic to get that message across.


Where is that video stessier shared about the truth behind gas prices. That is what should be told to America , full presentation with graphics, etc. I see no real concentrated efforts to educate people about the reality of it all.

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:52 amBut it’s stupid to look for things that look like you are trying if you know %100 that it will just look like you are trying and failing.

It is indeed stupid. Yet he seems to take the stupid option 2 times out of 3. That is why I think he has terrible judgement.

Edit: To be a little fair, this middle east trip strategy was cooked up by his NSA and the NSC. They are working in difficult conditions. The past President broke things. They have limited span of power and need to shore things up. So it wasn't crazy to go and try to work through some of these issues.

However...to bring it back to his terrible judgement...the mistake was linking this trip to gas prices at all. Leave it as an unstated objective. Yes the rumor mill would be that he was groveling for oil. So what? Every President since Bush has dealt with that at one time or another. If it worked, he takes credit. If it doesn't, it was never a goal. Ambiguity is helpful sometimes, right?

Instead they tee up a Joe Biden special mess. He should have known that the political whiplash that'd accompany this position would be rough. I think they should have been extremely careful to ensure they didn't meet in front of the press for the first time. Worse they allowed the Saudi press (which is the government) to stage it. And what do we get? A video of him fist bumping MBS. A blunder. Saudi gets a propaganda victory and they burn Biden in the process. Which is especially sweet for them considering his tough rhetoric on the campaign trail. That lead to the inevitable segments where multiple outlets showed Biden condemning the Saudis while running from President and contrasting it to a fist bump for the Saudi press.

Where is that video stessier shared about the truth behind gas prices. That is what should be told to America , full presentation with graphics, etc. I see no real concentrated efforts to educate people about the reality of it all.

The American people have the attention span of gnats. Even if you could break through that they don't trust any source of information that doesn't align with their beliefs anymore. So I get why Biden is willing to throw spaghetti at the wall. He needs to get results.

However, he has to balance what he does in desperation has a non-idiotic stakeholder audience of adversaries and allies outside this country who sees and weighs what he does.

Biden has to keep Saudi in the fold against Iran and Russia. Avoiding a split if Israel acts or Russia seeks to break sanctions with Saudi help is important enough to act.

It’s cynical to think Biden is just in it for the photo op rather than working on substantive problems. Apparently from NPR interviews that Kashogi showed up unexpectedly and the fist bump was cursory, not friendly. But it’s easy fodder for a news cycle selling controversy over substance.

Zarathud wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:33 am Biden has to keep Saudi in the fold against Iran and Russia. Avoiding a split if Israel acts or Russia seeks to break sanctions with Saudi help is important enough to act.

It’s cynical to think Biden is just in it for the photo op rather than working on substantive problems. Apparently from NPR interviews that Kashogi showed up unexpectedly and the fist bump was cursory, not friendly. But it’s easy fodder for a news cycle selling controversy over substance.

I edited and agree he was there for substantive issues. Still I honestly think you're missing or maybe more accurately underestimating the problem the press is highlighting which is that foreign diplomacy is full of all these gotcha moments. He has made several errors both in the moment and strategically that reflect poorly on his judgement and ability to project strength. Sure the press is looking for clicks but he doesn't have to deliver them on a platter. He projects weakness when he falls for these tricks.

Dont know if it's directly related to his publicity visit or not, but gas prices have dropped around 0.70 cents or so here.
So that's something, I guess.....

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:44 am Dont know if it's directly related to his publicity visit or not, but gas prices have dropped around 0.70 cents or so here.
So that's something, I guess.....

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:44 am Dont know if it's directly related to his publicity visit or not, but gas prices have dropped around 0.70 cents or so here.
So that's something, I guess.....

The lower bound on the price drop is probably governed by refinery capacity which is pretty close to maxed out. The data on that lags a lot (a month or two usually) but here is a piece on that.

I do keep seeing people (online) talking about <$4 a gallon of gas and I'm confused at it's been frozen at ~$4.60 here in NJ for over a week. This map from the PotUS (dated 7/14) is weird.

We're still at $5.

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:43 am We're still at $5.

Yeah, I doubt any station in Illinois is below $4 and our average is $4.97. That map is not accurate.

https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=IL

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:45 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:43 am We're still at $5.

Yeah, I doubt any station in Illinois is below $4 and our average is $4.97. That map is not accurate.

https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=IL

The key word is one or more. There are probably discounts, promos, etc. out there that make this barely factual. But it doesn't make it any less propaganda-ish.

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:55 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:45 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:43 am We're still at $5.

Yeah, I doubt any station in Illinois is below $4 and our average is $4.97. That map is not accurate.

https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=IL

The key word is one or more. There are probably discounts, promos, etc. out there that make this barely factual. But it doesn't make it any less propaganda-ish.

Well then surely all 50 states have at least one station offering free gas. Why sell the administration short?

Here's the source, FWIW:

https://www.gasbuddy.com/go/gas-price-p ... -u-s-price

There are 7 stations currently listed in Illinois at or below $3.99 and all are reported by GasBuddy users. There is no way to verify prices. Even if they're all correct, that's less than 0.5%.

https://www.gasbuddy.com/gasprices/illinois

Zarathud wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:33 am the fist bump was cursory, not friendly.

I’d like to see the difference mimed out for clarity. Thanks!