Octopus Overlords

I'd like to go with the "fuck 'em, let 'em die" sentiment, but the same anti-mask, anti-vax people we're willing to let die have kids who had no say in the matter. I can't just say "Hope your stupid mom and dad die, 4-year old."

At the recent CPAC, attendees celebrated the failure of Biden's goal to vaccinate 70% of adults. Now top Republicans have U-turned, urging people to get their jab.

Only two weeks ago at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Dallas, attendees cheered and clapped that Biden had not been able to"sucker" people and had missed his goal of vaccinating 70% of adults. Vaccine hesitancy on the right had metastasized into outright hostility.

But the mood music has changed again as the Delta variant rips through the red states where low vaccination rates are filling hospital ICU's at an alarming rate.

On Thursday, Gov. Kay Ivey of Alabama, who for much of the coronavirus pandemic resisted public-health measures, criticized her state's unvaccinated population.

I need to see more follow up from smarter people, but there's some chatter this morning about a study (7/21) that's suggesting vaccinated people can absolutely transmit COVID-19 under specific conditions.

For those who are interested in diving into the evidence: the design of this case-control study of 19,129 persons strongly argues (IMO) that symptomatic COVID-19 due to #DeltaVariant in fully vaccinated persons still produces high viral loads Eyes

Is that surprising? I suppose I would guess that if you’re symptomatic after vaccination that would necessarily mean a high viral load?

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:39 pm Is that surprising? I suppose I would guess that if you’re symptomatic after vaccination that would necessarily mean a high viral load?

It's a game changer. The theory I'd seen prior to Delta was that being vaccinated meant the virus levels in a vaccinated person never reached high enough numbers (because the vaccine was helping your body respond faster), which meant few virons being released which meant extremely low chances of a vaccinated person transmitting illness (regardless of whether or not they were symptomatic). The belief was that vaccinated people were not spreading illness - another reason why they said it was safe for an unvaccinated person (like a grandkid) to be indoors with vaccinated people (two sets of fully vaccinated parents), all unmasked.

If the biggest change for Delta is that it's ramping up virus production faster along with causing a higher number of virons to be shed, then we need to find out if that's a problem for vaccinated people as we've told them no more masks. In short, this would help to justify mask use for everyone, regardless of vaccination status because you're still potentially infectious even if as a vaccinated person you're fully asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic.

I'm not sure if there's a correlation to viral load for a person with the virus and symptoms. It wouldn't surprise me to learn there are completely asymptomatic people shedding the virus like its their job. Modern Typhoid Mary situations where they just have no idea they're a walking outbreak.

It was very stupid to change the mask rule for vaccinated people. Now it is too late to change it back.

Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:01 pm It was very stupid to change the mask rule for vaccinated people. Now it is too late to change it back.

If I was motivated (and people would buy it), I'd write a book

The COVID-19 Pandemic in America: Mistakes Were Made

I haven't read it yet, but I've seen The Premonition: A Pandemic Story. I'm not sure my blood pressure is quite ready yet to read about all this in great detail. It took me over a decade to read a detailed account of 9/11 and even when I did, I still found it stressful.

Daehawk wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:35 pm At the recent CPAC, attendees celebrated the failure of Biden's goal to vaccinate 70% of adults. Now top Republicans have U-turned, urging people to get their jab.

On Thursday, Gov. Kay Ivey of Alabama, who for much of the coronavirus pandemic resisted public-health measures, criticized her state's unvaccinated population.

I take a bit of issue with this statement, out of all the republican governors, she had a mask mandate in place longer than many, she closed businesses, when they opened back up she had limited capacity of the businesses. So I'm not sure what they mean by resisted public-health measures. She has pushed for people to get vaccinated, only thing she has not done is offer incentives like some states.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:53 pm I need to see more follow up from smarter people, but there's some chatter this morning about a study (7/21) that's suggesting vaccinated people can absolutely transmit COVID-19 under specific conditions.

In my ignorance that is why I wear a mask while virtually no one around me does. Better safe than to make others sorry on my account. Until there is big proof out there that I am not incubating or carrying for someone else, I'll keep it on around everyone except my fellow gamers. As I said before, I do it for my mom and I'll treat everyone else with same courtesy. I can't force others but I can do my bit and I can totally check out when my comfort level is too far in the gone territory.

People are damn stupid.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/07/2 ... 60-vpx.cnn

Smoove_B wrote:

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:39 pm Is that surprising? I suppose I would guess that if you’re symptomatic after vaccination that would necessarily mean a high viral load?

It's a game changer. The theory I'd seen prior to Delta was that being vaccinated meant the virus levels in a vaccinated person never reached high enough numbers (because the vaccine was helping your body respond faster), which meant few virons being released which meant extremely low chances of a vaccinated person transmitting illness (regardless of whether or not they were symptomatic). The belief was that vaccinated people were not spreading illness - another reason why they said it was safe for an unvaccinated person (like a grandkid) to be indoors with vaccinated people (two sets of fully vaccinated parents), all unmasked.

If the biggest change for Delta is that it's ramping up virus production faster along with causing a higher number of virons to be shed, then we need to find out if that's a problem for vaccinated people as we've told them no more masks. In short, this would help to justify mask use for everyone, regardless of vaccination status because you're still potentially infectious even if as a vaccinated person you're fully asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic.

I'm not sure if there's a correlation to viral load for a person with the virus and symptoms. It wouldn't surprise me to learn there are completely asymptomatic people shedding the virus like its their job. Modern Typhoid Mary situations where they just have no idea they're a walking outbreak.

Game changer? Nope.

As you can still get infected by the virus when vaccinated, I see no reason why you couldn't infect someone else.

The thing is that you are far less likely to be hospitalized or die, and far more likely to merely suffer from a strong immune response to the virus.

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:09 pm

Smoove_B wrote:

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:39 pm Is that surprising? I suppose I would guess that if you’re symptomatic after vaccination that would necessarily mean a high viral load?

It's a game changer. The theory I'd seen prior to Delta was that being vaccinated meant the virus levels in a vaccinated person never reached high enough numbers (because the vaccine was helping your body respond faster), which meant few virons being released which meant extremely low chances of a vaccinated person transmitting illness (regardless of whether or not they were symptomatic). The belief was that vaccinated people were not spreading illness - another reason why they said it was safe for an unvaccinated person (like a grandkid) to be indoors with vaccinated people (two sets of fully vaccinated parents), all unmasked.

If the biggest change for Delta is that it's ramping up virus production faster along with causing a higher number of virons to be shed, then we need to find out if that's a problem for vaccinated people as we've told them no more masks. In short, this would help to justify mask use for everyone, regardless of vaccination status because you're still potentially infectious even if as a vaccinated person you're fully asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic.

I'm not sure if there's a correlation to viral load for a person with the virus and symptoms. It wouldn't surprise me to learn there are completely asymptomatic people shedding the virus like its their job. Modern Typhoid Mary situations where they just have no idea they're a walking outbreak.

Game changer? Nope.

As you can still get infected by the virus when vaccinated, I see no reason why you couldn't infect someone else.

The thing is that you are far less likely to be hospitalized or die, and far more likely to merely suffer from a strong immune response to the virus.

I think the math changes significantly with Delta. A vaccinated person carrying enough to infect someone else went from possible? Yes, likely? No. to possible? Yes, likely Yes. and if it was just about the vaccinated person maybe that would be ok with the less serious consequences of catching COVID when vaccinated, but when you have people around who can't get vaccinated (under 12 and immunocompromised) that increased likelihood of a vaccinated person giving it to someone else really *should* be a game changer.

Exactly. Everyone is still focused on vaccination as a self-benefit tool. While that's clearly important, vaccinations are unique in their ability to protect others. If the virus is now something that vaccinated people can potentially spread? It's absolutely a game changer for policy and how we should be conducting indoor activities like school.

Vaccinations preventing death and severe illness is a great benefit, but if there not controlling spread we need to go back to the other strategies that do.

I did see that Dr. Fauci was on the TV yesterday saying there's been increased discussions about the CDC going back to recommending masks. As always, they seem to be running behind what the greater public health community has been saying for weeks. I would imagine they're going to look at the numbers this week and see if the trends are continuing, and go from there.

Breaking: Calif will require proof of vaccination for all state govt employees, plus all health care workers in the state (public and private). Those without vax verification will have to wear masks indoors and be tested weekly. Gov @GavinNewsom to announce at news conf shortly.

Fox News is going to be all over this today.

If you listen closely, you can hear Tucker Carlson's erection hitting the bottom of his desk.

Illinois requires masks in all healthcare settings regardless of vaccinated status.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:28 pm Fox News is going to be all over this today.

If you listen closely, you can hear Tucker Carlson's erection hitting the bottom of his desk.

New York expands vaccination requirement from just healthcare workers to all city employees, around 340,000 people.

Will be interesting to see what happens with NYPD, who had an abysmal vaccination percentage (46% vaccinated, iirc)

I expect mewling from the brain cell deficient.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:39 pm
Will be interesting to see what happens with NYPD, who had an abysmal vaccination percentage (46% vaccinated, iirc)

Probably depends on how the unions react.

VA is now on board as well.

Breaking News: The Department of Veterans Affairs will require its health care workers to be vaccinated against Covid. It's the first federal agency to do so as concern grows about unvaccinated people contributing to the Delta variant's rapid spread.

About damn time.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:39 pm New York expands vaccination requirement from just healthcare workers to all city employees, around 340,000 people.

Will be interesting to see what happens with NYPD, who had an abysmal vaccination percentage (46% vaccinated, iirc)

It'd be a damn shame if a bunch of troglodytes resigned over this.

Our hospital just mandated the vaccine. We were hovering at about 70% compliance. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:47 am I'd like to go with the "fuck 'em, let 'em die" sentiment, but the same anti-mask, anti-vax people we're willing to let die have kids who had no say in the matter. I can't just say "Hope your stupid mom and dad die, 4-year old."

Yes, they're holding hostages. It makes it worse, not better.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:12 pm Our hospital just mandated the vaccine. We were hovering at about 70% compliance. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

We have said we will mandate it but haven't mandated it yet. It's a weird middle area but basically the message is, "might as well get it now because you will have to get it soon." Depends on what the FDA is looking like for full authorization. If it's a ways out, we'll just mandate under EUA. If it's coming soon, we'll wait.

I still think the main issue is that we still have around 20-30% WFH. Everyone I know on-site is vaccinated.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:12 pm Our hospital just mandated the vaccine. We were hovering at about 70% compliance. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

What hospital? Sounds like 30 % of your staff are idiots. Don't want to be treated there.

The lack of a mask mandate from the state is potentially personal after today. My wife has to give a presentation to her board of directors. She found out they flew in from Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, and Georgia. All are deeply conservative and they are walking around her office completely unmasked having stepped off planes this morning. She is freaking out. I'm really sick of assholes and employers who are frankly sociopaths.

UsulofDoom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:02 am

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:12 pm Our hospital just mandated the vaccine. We were hovering at about 70% compliance. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

What hospital? Sounds like 30 % of your staff are idiots. Don't want to be treated there.

Article is a month old but not a whole lot has changed.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19 ... al-workers

In fact, nationwide, 1 in 4 hospital workers who have direct contact with patients had not received a single dose of a COVID-19 vaccine by the end of May, according to a WebMD and Medscape Medical News analysis of data collected by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) from 2,500 hospitals across the U.S.

UsulofDoom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:02 am

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:12 pm Our hospital just mandated the vaccine. We were hovering at about 70% compliance. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

What hospital? Sounds like 30 % of your staff are idiots. Don't want to be treated there.

30%? Huh. Who'd have thought? It's a complete mystery why it's 30%.

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:06 am The lack of a mask mandate from the state is potentially personal after today. My wife has to give a presentation to her board of directors. She found out they flew in from Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, and Georgia. All are deeply conservative and they are walking around her office completely unmasked having stepped off planes this morning. She is freaking out. I'm really sick of assholes and employers who are frankly sociopaths.

This is a failure on multiple levels. Not just the company for failing to mandate vaccinations for workers, but the airlines as well for not requiring vaccination for domestic travel. There's also nothing stopping our state from imposing quarantine rules for unvaccinatated domestic travelers from states where specific thresholds of circulating COVID are exceeded, other than all that administrative work.

When there's no consequences, people are going to do whatever they want - including living like parasites while the rest of us are dealing with it directly and indirectly.

CDC to reinstate some indoor mask recommendations later today.

I'm sure no one will be surprised to learn that as a local partner, I haven't heard a single thing about it. I've suspected it from language over the weekend, but in terms of actual guidance parameters or a heads up as to what to generally expect? I'll apparently be finding out with the rest of you.

As the info trickles out:

In a reversal of its earlier position, the agency is expected to recommend some fully vaccinated people wear masks indoors, in areas where the virus is circulating widely.

...

The agency is also expected to update its masking policy in schools, given the rise in cases around the country. As the delta variant spreads, particularly in areas where vaccination rates remain low, kids remain unprotected against the virus. The vaccines are not authorized for children under 12 and many teenagers have yet to get vaccinated.

"circulating widely" needs to be quantified - so the wackjobs can immediately start screaming about how the numbers are a lie. I can't even begin to imagine how the masking in school element will be received. Locally I hear much more yelling against putting masks on children than in support for it.

This was something that was raised here in NJ as an issue and was shrugged off:

The pressure on the CDC to amend its masking policy in schools has been growing. School administrators don't have the resources to monitor who has been vaccinated or not, says Dr. Judy Guzman-Cottrill, a pediatric infectious disease expert at Oregon Health & Science University.

And, absent universal masking, kids will be left unprotected — or may be tempted to take off their masks. "I worry that some students will be singled out for wearing masks at school and this can lead to bullying and peer pressure to unmask even when it's not safe to do so," Guzman-Cottrill says.

Hold on to your butts.

In a reversal of its earlier position, the agency is expected to recommend some fully vaccinated people wear masks indoors, in areas where the virus is circulating widely.

Does "some fully vaccinated people" simply mean all fully vaccinated people in areas where the virus is circulating widely or does it mean something else? (like people with comorbidities or people with children or people who are named Bob?)

I believe it will be the latter - vaccinated people with specific risk factors and vaccinated people that live with high risk / unvaccinated individuals.

In practice, it would be so much flipping easier to say "everyone - regardless of vaccinated status - should be wearing a mask indoors while [detail local metrics]".

If I'm a healthy adult that's vaccinated and the new data is telling us that I'm still low risk for complications but that I can spread the Delta variant to others unknowingly while indoors, wearing a mask helps to protect others - regardless of the people I'm living with at home.

The reasonable takes have begun.

UsulofDoom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:02 am

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:12 pm Our hospital just mandated the vaccine. We were hovering at about 70% compliance. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

What hospital? Sounds like 30 % of your staff are idiots. Don't want to be treated there.

They're doing about 20% better than the hospital Michelle works at.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:46 pm "circulating widely" needs to be quantified - so the wackjobs can immediately start screaming about how the numbers are a lie. I can't even begin to imagine how the masking in school element will be received. Locally I hear much more yelling against putting masks on children than in support for it.

I really hope their quantification is specific and involves numbers. If they leave it as 'high transmission' or 'circulating widely', it'll be up to the same useless local officials to decide what that means.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:37 pm I really hope their quantification is specific and involves numbers. If they leave it as 'high transmission' or 'circulating widely', it'll be up to the same useless local officials to decide what that means.

This is my fear, as well. Our district has indicated that they'll monitor local trends and adjust as necessary, but with a complete lack of any objective measures and their values that would force a change. It'd be wonderful if the CDC provided concrete guidelines that can be forwarded on to district leadership.

Yeah, the schools around here last year started dropping masks well in advance of the rest of the country with words like 'low' and 'high' with absolutely nothing hard to back them up.

Apparently the line between deaths and too many deaths is like porn: "I know it when I see it."

First article I've seen this mentioned:

When earlier strains of the virus predominated, infected vaccinated people were found to have low levels of virus and were deemed unlikely to spread the virus much, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said.

But with the delta variant, the level of virus in infected vaccinated people is "indistinguishable” from the level of virus in the noses and throats of unvaccinated people, Walensky said.

The data emerged over the last couple of days from 100 samples. It is unpublished, and the CDC has not released it. But “it is concerning enough that we feel like we have to act,” Walensky said.

What's the deal? Remember the 9/11 terror chart that was color coded? Well...

The CDC said to look at its county-by-county online data tracker to see where COVID-19 is surging. In the color-coded map, orange reflects substantial community transmission and red indicates high transmission.

Substantial transmission means there's been 50-100 cases per 100,000 over a 7-day period and high transmission means an area has seen more than 100 cases per 100,000 over a 7-day period, Walensky explained.

So, using that new designation, let's see where in America cases are surging and we have substantial and high transmission...



Oh boy...