The Empire Strikes Back - Empire Victory

[Remus West]

I came close last time with having you lynched.

No you didn't. You have to be a confirmed good guy to pull that trick. You were not confirmed at all. Stop misusing my term.

Also, RMC, redrun is not new to these games. He just is not frequent.

[RMC]

I came close last time with having you lynched.

No you didn't. You have to be a confirmed good guy to pull that trick. You were not confirmed at all. Stop misusing my term.

Also, RMC, redrun is not new to these games. He just is not frequent.

Ack. I thought we were still talking about warpig not redrun. Sorry.

[Austin]

Ezmate is over-explaining absences right?

Austining is using intuition and deduction, and a hint of subtle persuasion to collar the wolves.

[stessier]

Ezmate is over-explaining absences right?

Pretty much. He was a wolf who went out of his way to explain when and why he'd be gone so he didn't miss anything.

[stessier]

If CR is evil and redrun good would he point out a possible good special that he might want to kill in the night? I don't see that going on either. So, doubtful that CR is evil and redrun good.

how about CR is evil and wants to run him up to N-1 because he doesn't want to waste a scan on him tonight or they do not have a scanner.

Yeah, I agree that whole reasoning by Remus was a load of hooey but this line in particular is just wrong.

[Remus West]

If CR is evil and redrun good would he point out a possible good special that he might want to kill in the night? I don't see that going on either. So, doubtful that CR is evil and redrun good.

how about CR is evil and wants to run him up to N-1 because he doesn't want to waste a scan on him tonight or they do not have a scanner.

Yeah, I agree that whole reasoning by Remus was a load of hooey but this line in particular is just wrong.

So you both think that Evil, while honestly believing redrun to be special, would run him up to n-1 and force him to make a claim rather than silently plot his death? I disagree. They have to account for the possibility of protections getting in their way. If they think they have found a special I do not think they'd want him pointed out to the general public and thus potentially protected. Scanner or no scanner. If they suspect someone is special they will probably clam up about it, kill them, and move on to the next target.

[purge]

I came close last time with having you lynched.

No you didn't. You have to be a confirmed good guy to pull that trick. You were not confirmed at all. Stop misusing my term.

Also, RMC, redrun is not new to these games. He just is not frequent.

Not proven because of YOU, ya big dummy. I think all that not shaving and mercury in the fletching addled your mind.

[Remus West]

Doesn't matter why you were unproven, only that you were unproven. Also, if it makes you feel better, I was only fighting with you during that game in an effort to keep us both alive as I figure that if Evil thought we might go after each other they wouldn't kill either one of us. I sent CR a PM to that effect right before Coop off'd me. The bastage.

[Newcastle]

So who all hasnt pipped up:

Grund, Stessier...triggercut? and who else....

Love to spur them into saying something.

-Isgrinmur - no idea who you're refering to

And now twice.

Right after I mentioned it.

In case you're wondering, I am referring less to Scoop and Grund being silent than Newcastles continued Omission of Scoop.


*snip*

My continued omission ?...one post about noticing people not present out of 23 other people and you're hounding me about 1 person? Ever think i'd be more interested in hearing what the people's opinion of who i mentioned; what they had to say over scoop? (actually i totally forgot about scoop...so in a way thanks for reminding me of him ) I really need to look through who's playing actually since when I saw LM post, i was thinking "hey get out of our thread here, we're playing!". Yeah this is gonna be a fun one.

[Isgrimnur]

-Isgrinmur - no idea who you're refering to

Marlin Perkins - Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom.

[redrun]

So is it better to let redrun live without pushing him up and calling us fools and giving us a role, real or fake and force the empire to choose if he lives or dies, or is it better to kill him for his exposure?

The suggestion to me is that if we are afraid to lynch specials then we are trying for people who claim "to be no big loss." If that's the case should we be looking for volunteers and then judge people by volunteering or not later?

Unless redrun has a power that isn't easily spoofed early game, my intent is not to get him to scream and then let him go. So if the village has that sort of leaning and want to lynch someone who's a safe citizen because it's more important to not risk lynching a special on day one then I'd like to know before we try and push redrun up against the wall and potentially letting him down.

And given that we know absolutely nothing about how many players the empire have, I don't think waiting things out to a deadline is a good option, so I'd like to get a proper direction earlier rather than later.

In short what is it we hope to gain/not lose on day one and how do we intend to get there? Until that's decided, my sights are fixed.

Also if the empire have a forum why to they potentially have good/evil scanner? Am I missing something where that power comes in handy? Is he like an evil aquaman?

Second sentence: 'The suggestion to me is that if we are afraid to lynch specials then we are trying for people who claim "to be no big loss." If that's the case should we be looking for volunteers and then judge people by volunteering or not later?' This appears to me to be very useful for team evil:

A. Normals come forward, and one or two evil also come forward.
B. Team evil players know that their teammates will help guide the lynch to another player (especially since Coop already came out as normal, AFAICT).
C. Team evil has reduced the size of possible good special list.
D. Once we're a turn or two into the game we hope to have enough information to start killing evil, and therefore will stop targeting those who came out as normal.
E. Later in the game, evil players would be able to point back at their "I'm normal" posting as a way of saying "See, I was ready to die early, I must not be evil".

Secondly: The entire post reads to me like LordMortis is sure that I'm a good special. He sez: "giving us a role, real or fake and force the empire to choose if he lives or dies"... isn't the empire only going to choose to kill me if I'm not evil? Where's the _empire will give him a pass 'cause he's evil_ option in his thinking?

Also: LM states: "Unless redrun has a power that isn't easily spoofed early game, my intent is not to get him to scream and then let him go."

I have a bad habit of reading too much into early posts. So, I wonder what other folks think of the above.

[Lassr]

If CR is evil and redrun good would he point out a possible good special that he might want to kill in the night? I don't see that going on either. So, doubtful that CR is evil and redrun good.

how about CR is evil and wants to run him up to N-1 because he doesn't want to waste a scan on him tonight or they do not have a scanner.

Yeah, I agree that whole reasoning by Remus was a load of hooey but this line in particular is just wrong.

So you both think that Evil, while honestly believing redrun to be special, would run him up to n-1 and force him to make a claim rather than silently plot his death? I disagree. They have to account for the possibility of protections getting in their way. If they think they have found a special I do not think they'd want him pointed out to the general public and thus potentially protected. Scanner or no scanner. If they suspect someone is special they will probably clam up about it, kill them, and move on to the next target.

I believe that evil not knowing if he is special or not but suspect he could be might do that. Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean someone else wouldn't.

[redrun]

yas ot gnihtemos evah I nehw etubirtnoc lliw I tub ,tenmom eht ta dda to gnihton

Nothing ot add at the momnet, but I will contribute when I have something to say

[Mr Bubbles]

yas ot gnihtemos evah I nehw etubirtnoc lliw I tub ,tenmom eht ta dda to gnihton

Nothing ot add at the momnet, but I will contribute when I have something to say

ʎɐs oʇ ƃuıɥʇǝɯos ǝʌɐɥ I uǝɥʍ ǝʇnqıɹʇuoɔ llıʍ I ʇnq 'ʇǝuɯoɯ ǝɥʇ ʇɐ ppɐ ʇo ƃuıɥʇoN

[LordMortis]

So you both think that Evil, while honestly believing redrun to be special, would run him up to n-1 and force him to make a claim rather than silently plot his death? I disagree.

Not sure who both is, but personally, I don't think Evil would do that. However, I think evil his happy to see a special run up the flag pole and pulled back down. This means two things for them 1) Evil can be run up the flag pole, claim special and be pulled back down. 2) Evil more reliably learn who is who whereas good have less information to speculate on if the person is lying. I tend to think evil's happiness outweighs what we learn by seeing who flinches and who commits on what vote.

As to whether or not I believe redrun to actually be evil, I think it's a greater risk/greater reward play to lynch him. The risk is that if he had an evil forum, I think he would have posted his thought in the evil forum first. This is why I would pull my vote from him before pushing him to a reveal. However, it is entirely possible he did not yet have keys to an evil forum when he posted. The more I think on it, the less likely evil he is and the better I feel about pulling my vote.

[LordMortis]

Second sentence: 'The suggestion to me is that if we are afraid to lynch specials then we are trying for people who claim "to be no big loss." If that's the case should we be looking for volunteers and then judge people by volunteering or not later?' This appears to me to be very useful for team evil:

A. Normals come forward, and one or two evil also come forward.
B. Team evil players know that their teammates will help guide the lynch to another player (especially since Coop already came out as normal, AFAICT).
C. Team evil has reduced the size of possible good special list.
D. Once we're a turn or two into the game we hope to have enough information to start killing evil, and therefore will stop targeting those who came out as normal.
E. Later in the game, evil players would be able to point back at their "I'm normal" posting as a way of saying "See, I was ready to die early, I must not be evil".

Secondly: The entire post reads to me like LordMortis is sure that I'm a good special. He sez: "giving us a role, real or fake and force the empire to choose if he lives or dies"... isn't the empire only going to choose to kill me if I'm not evil? Where's the _empire will give him a pass 'cause he's evil_ option in his thinking?

Also: LM states: "Unless redrun has a power that isn't easily spoofed early game, my intent is not to get him to scream and then let him go."

I have a bad habit of reading too much into early posts. So, I wonder what other folks think of the above.

I'm trying to come up with a reasonable way to lynch someone on turn one. Are we in essence looking for least damage or are we looking for best probability at empire and can we make that decision before vote and reveal and vote and reveal and vote and reveal which seems to be the way these things work.

And yes, quite frankly, coop is my second choice for lynch or possibly my primary based on the idea that we either want to keep it safe on day one or don't.

I'm pretty sure you're not a civilian. You as much as said so. The question for me is are you good or are you evil. Were you sloppy as a good special. Were you sloppy as an evil special. Are you trying to be clever and bluffing as an evil special? But no matter how it goes, I have something to talk about on day one and something to begin judging by.

[Remus West]

So you both think that Evil, while honestly believing redrun to be special, would run him up to n-1 and force him to make a claim rather than silently plot his death? I disagree.

Not sure who both is, but personally, I don't think Evil would do that.

Both was Lassr and stessier. However, we were not speaking of "Evil" but rather "Evil Chaosraven". Important distinction imo.

As to whether or not I believe redrun to actually be evil, I think it's a greater risk/greater reward play to lynch him. The risk is that if he had an evil forum, I think he would have posted his thought in the evil forum first. This is why I would pull my vote from him before pushing him to a reveal. However, it is entirely possible he did not yet have keys to an evil forum when he posted. The more I think on it, the less likely evil he is and the better I feel about pulling my vote.

If you intend to pull your vote from him before he gets close to the edge why did you vote for him at all?

[LordMortis]

So you both think that Evil, while honestly believing redrun to be special, would run him up to n-1 and force him to make a claim rather than silently plot his death? I disagree.

Not sure who both is, but personally, I don't think Evil would do that.

Both was Lassr and stessier. However, we were not speaking of "Evil" but rather "Evil Chaosraven". Important distinction imo.

As to whether or not I believe redrun to actually be evil, I think it's a greater risk/greater reward play to lynch him. The risk is that if he had an evil forum, I think he would have posted his thought in the evil forum first. This is why I would pull my vote from him before pushing him to a reveal. However, it is entirely possible he did not yet have keys to an evil forum when he posted. The more I think on it, the less likely evil he is and the better I feel about pulling my vote.

If you intend to pull your vote from him before he gets close to the edge why did you vote for him at all?

This is going to be a game of sophistry for you, isn't it? I said I would pull my vote for him before pushing him to a reveal not I intend to pull my vote for him before pushing him to a reveal.

One suggests I can see a circumstance where I pull my vote, so long as it's before he gets pushed to the edge.
The other suggests that my plan to pull my vote before he gets to the edge.
Currently, the village (the galaxy?) has no idea what it wants, so currently I intend on leaving my vote where it is, even if I actually am beginning to lean to the idea the redrun was just sloppy at the beginning, screaming "Hey, I'm a special, but don't worry about me. There's nothing to see here."

[purge]

So what's with the Redrun train?

[Unagi]

I'm pretty sure you're not a civilian. You as much as said so. The question for me is are you good or are you evil. Were you sloppy as a good special. Were you sloppy as an evil special.

OK, well - Team Evil / Wolves are always filled with 'powered people', right? I mean, a Player that is given an Evil Role wouldn't just assume that Everyone Else is powered.

If the thought here is that redrun slipped - then it's as a Special Good Guy, that's about it.

Are you trying to be clever and bluffing as an evil special?

I find that to be an unlikely move on Day 1.

If redrun isn't on team Evil; my guess would be that team evil would most likely want to kill him quietly at night (not by lynch, today). By forcing him to N-1, they would be forcing him to make a move. Which then forces them to make a move. They won't want to be forced into things. (look at the last game).

[El Guapo]

So what's with the Redrun train?

The idea as I understand it goes like this:

(1) Redrun posted and asked if there were normals/citizens in the game, or if it's just good powereds and evil powereds;
(2) As Chaosraven pointed out, this strongly suggests that he's a powered of some type, or else he would already know that there are citizens (since he would know that he was a normal/citizen otherwise;
(2)(a) However, alternative explanations are that he was playing a game, and/or that he was joking about the number of roles in this game;
(2)(b) FWIW redrun's avoided commenting on this part.
(3) If he is a special, redrun could of course be a good or evil special;
(4) However, Team Evil already knows if he's good or evil, and if redrun dies without us knowing his role then they get an information advantage from that (possible spoofing, depending on whether they have a coroner or not

At least, that's the idea behind the train I think.

[Remus West]

I'm pretty sure you're not a civilian. You as much as said so. The question for me is are you good or are you evil. Were you sloppy as a good special. Were you sloppy as an evil special.

OK, well - Team Evil / Wolves are always filled with 'powered people', right? I mean, a Player that is given an Evil Role wouldn't just assume that Everyone Else is powered.

If the thought here is that redrun slipped - then it's as a Special Good Guy, that's about it.

Are you trying to be clever and bluffing as an evil special?

I find that to be an unlikely move on Day 1.

If redrun isn't on team Evil; my guess would be that team evil would most likely want to kill him quietly at night (not by lynch, today). By forcing him to N-1, they would be forcing him to make a move. Which then forces them to make a move. They won't want to be forced into things. (look at the last game).

Which is what I was saying regarding Chaosraven yet stessier and Lassr thought it hooey.

On the same vein as that I find LM's stated intention or willingness to pull back his vote before making redrun make a claim to be iffy at best.

[LordMortis]

On the same vein as that I find LM's stated intention or willingness to pull back his vote before making redrun make a claim to be iffy at best.

Are you saying that at best it is iffy that I'm part of the rebellion? Or making a general statement that you don't like the way I stated my position? Or that you don't like the position I am taking? And why do you say this? What are you looking for in the first day and how do you intend to find it?

[Remus West]

On the same vein as that I find LM's stated intention or willingness to pull back his vote before making redrun make a claim to be iffy at best.

Are you saying that at best it is iffy that I'm part of the rebellion? Or making a general statement that you don't like the way I stated my position? Or that you don't like the position I am taking? And why do you say this? What are you looking for in the first day and how do you intend to find it?

I'm looking for the most likely Empire player. I intend to find it by continuing to poke everyone with a stick. I say it is iffy because it does not seem like a good guy would do what you are doing. Essentially you have said you want to push him just long enough to confirm if he is indeed a powered rebel or not and then back off before he makes an specific claim. Seems like a purely Empire idea to me.

[Qantaga]

Which is what I was saying regarding Chaosraven yet stessier and Lassr thought it hooey.

While I don't consider your argument to be on the "hooey" level, I do find myself more on the stessier/Lassr side of this particular viewpoint.

If we assume redrun is good (for the sake of this topic), I think it would be very beneficial for team Evil to run him up to a reveal.

Team Evil would know that redrun is good. If they run him up to reveal, then they know for certain who he is, while the rest of us would not know if he was telling the truth or a spoofing Evil. Then, team Evil would be able to evaluate if redrun's role is of high night-kill priority, or a less dangerous (or unprovable) role who they could afford to leave alive for a little longer to sow confusion or to buy them a night or two while our scanners are verifying redrun, instead of targetting potential Evil. It might even draw protection to redrun to give Evil a safer night kill, if redrun's role is not of high early importance to them.

So, count me among those that can easily see a strategic advantage to team Evil running a potential special up to reveal to gain an extra nugget of information.

[Remus West]

I could see using redrun as a distraction for protection. That is IF they had done it later in the day when they may have had another target. If he is their only target then I think killing him quietly serves them best because if he ends up the only good target in their eyes they won't want that to be the case for any protectors too.

That said, if you guys want to lynch Chaosraven far be it from me to stand in your way. Have at it. I simply think his actions have pointed much more towards good rather than Evil. Even so, I should note that if you put him at n-1 I'll happily put him at n if only so I can point and laugh in RL. All of which is regarding a player with zero votes on him currently though so is sort of useless beyond seeing how you people react to my thinking though.

[LordMortis]

Essentially you have said you want to push him just long enough to confirm if he is indeed a powered rebel or not and then back off before he makes an specific claim. Seems like a purely Empire idea to me.

You keep telling me what I've said and keeping saying it differently than what I've said and I when I correct you, you still insist that is what I'm saying.

I said if we are going to push him to reveal then I intend to leave my vote there to lynch him unless he's got a role that is quickly provable. I said I want to know what the village's intention is. If the intent is to do least risk of harm then let me know and I'll swap my vote over to someone who is as likely powerless as they are empire, in this case, yes coop is my first choice.

But you go on and keep telling me what I'm saying and saying it wrong and then repeating that what I'm saying is purely Imperial.

I'm looking for the most likely Empire player.

How do you intend to determine this on day one? Do you intend to keep that secret? Oh wait...

I intend to find it by continuing to poke everyone with a stick.

That's going to work so well. How much poking have you done? Who have you poked? Me? chaosraven? Lassr? Stessier? Seems to me me you've been reacting rather than poking.

[Lassr]

Although Remus is saying he doesn't think Chaosraven would do this from what I gather...maybe he thinks others might.

But anyhow I want to start looking at the ones possible hiding in silence.

[Lassr]

That said, if you guys want to lynch Chaosraven far be it from me to stand in your way. Have at it..

and this is where I think we got sidetracked, I was discussing the strategy as any player being evil, you were talking about Chaosraven. I current have no intention of voting Chaosraven.

[theohall]

Hey!  SCOOP20906!!!!!!!!! 
 


TK-421 is looking for you.

[Remus West]

I intend to find it by continuing to poke everyone with a stick.

That's going to work so well. How much poking have you done? Who have you poked? Me? chaosraven? Lassr? Stessier? Seems to me me you've been reacting rather than poking.

I can only poke those that come within reach. I'm too lazy to get up and go looking for them. Besides, I consider many of the posts I make to be a general poke at everyone rather than specific targets.

However, let me see if I have things straight, your position on redrun is one of three possible:
1) We move away frm him in an effort to not expose anyone.
2) We run him up until he makes a claim. If it is provable we make him prove it.
3) We run him up until he makes a claim. If it is not provable we kill him.

Is this correct?

[LordMortis]

However, let me see if I have things straight, your position on redrun is one of three possible:
1) We move away frm him in an effort to not expose anyone.
2) We run him up until he makes a claim. If it is provable we make him prove it.
3) We run him up until he makes a claim. If it is not provable we kill him.

Is this correct?

Assuming you don't later change this to either we ought to move away from him or run him up, then yep. My position is also that I'm not moving off of redrun until there seems to be a reason to, mostly likely "we don't want kill a potential special, so we're going to go after someone who seems harmless" and as was rightly guessed/deduced earlier, for me that's coop. Beyond that it's going to something to make my vote more flexible today. Because as far as I can tell the rest is just pussyfooting and posturing.

[Chaosraven]

My continued omission ?...one post about noticing people not present out of 23 other people and you're hounding me about 1 person? Ever think i'd be more interested in hearing what the people's opinion of who i mentioned; what they had to say over scoop? (actually i totally forgot about scoop...so in a way thanks for reminding me of him ) I really need to look through who's playing actually since when I saw LM post, i was thinking "hey get out of our thread here, we're playing!". Yeah this is gonna be a fun one.

Your post mentioned silents. I noted there were three of them.
Your posts, TWICE, mentioned only two of them.

The third is Scoop.

So yes, I was interested in your reasoning for keeping track of who was quiet (and how were you doing that, anyway? With a list?) and yet not including Scoop.

How is it that the various people with only a SINGLE post got crossed off your listremoved from your "quiets"?

[Chaosraven]

And yes, MY LIST is a Cut n Paste of the PLAYERS, which I delete one by one as I go thru the thread.

With this many people it would indeed be hard to keep track.

Yet NEWC did pretty well (2 of 3) "without knowing"

So my interpretation?

Scoop would be plenty active behind the scenes with NewC, so rather than forgotten, he's accidentally included as the Evil push for QUIETS gets bandied about as someone involved in the discussion.

 withdraw redrun 
 


Newcastle or Scoop...

Lets go ahead and poke the Quiets, but my eye is on Newcastle.

 SCOOP 
 

[Chaosraven]

So who all hasnt pipped up:

Grund, Stessier...triggercut? and who else....

Love to spur them into saying something.

-Isgrinmur - no idea who you're refering to

My continued omission ?...one post about noticing people not present out of 23 other people and you're hounding me about 1 person? Ever think i'd be more interested in hearing what the people's opinion of who i mentioned; what they had to say over scoop? (actually i totally forgot about scoop...so in a way thanks for reminding me of him ) I really need to look through who's playing actually since when I saw LM post, i was thinking "hey get out of our thread here, we're playing!". Yeah this is gonna be a fun one.

Grund and Scoop.

But I am fascinated by your interest in Spurring those who haven't Piped Up without some method of tracking who HAS been part of the discussion.

So which is it?

Keeping track or not?

[purge]

FTR: I get the redrun thing.

I also think that he's created a Day 2 answer for himself.

1) A kill attempt will happen on him tonight
2) If he's protected, we move closer to a win with a no-kill night.
3) He'll be scanned (by both sides, potentially)
4) None of the scanners or protectors are at-risk by protecting someone (IIRC).

So he becomes a convergence of powers. WTF would we lynch him, TODAY of all days?

Also, have you folks not been paying attention?

N-2
You know, cuz of the secret ballot potential?

[purge]

Not using the assumed logic where he is good, then he will survive tonight, be scanned and protected tonight, and we look at lynching him tomorrow.

No sense in a DAY1 reveal.

My 2c.

What say you, Grund?

[Chaosraven]

What say you, Grund?

[Remus West]

What say you, Grund?

[tru1cy]

 Grundbegriff 
 



Something is wrong when my post cound is higher than Grund