Octopus Overlords

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:00 pm And grieving families may be hiding Covid connections as well, out of shame

Weaponized shame as a cultural hallmark is a an absolute travesty of human nature.

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:00 pm Perhaps, but count your blessings. Because India's current plight presents a vastly different perspective on what defines 'not good'

Yeah, I posted over the weekend on the other side of the fence about India. I cannot comprehend what's happening there; it sounds horrific. I am glad the world seems to (largely) recognize that we need to step up and do something.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:22 pm Yeah, I was waiting for more reporting and numbers, but that's...not good.

The expected number was around 10%. Some won't go back due to side effects; some are college students who can't return; some just think one is enough; and of course some just can't be bothered or have work or transportation limitations. For comparison, 25% of people don't go back for their second Shingrix shot.

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:13 pm For comparison, 25% of people don't go back for their second Shingrix shot.

Off topic....

Sheesh, I would, but since I don't have a Medicare part D they quoted me a price a couple of years ago of over $500 for the two shots, so I never signed up for it. Since I got the earlier shingles vaccine several years ago I'm thinking I might be reasonably OK.

jztemple2 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:43 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:13 pm For comparison, 25% of people don't go back for their second Shingrix shot.

Off topic....

Sheesh, I would, but since I don't have a Medicare part D they quoted me a price a couple of years ago of over $500 for the two shots, so I never signed up for it. Since I got the earlier shingles vaccine several years ago I'm thinking I might be reasonably OK.

Shingrix was the first vaccine that ever kicked my ass. The first shot sent me to bed for two days. I can understand why 25% of people who go through that say Nope nope nope. (Side fx from my second shot weren't as bad.) As I anticipate my second Pfizer this Saturday, Shingrix is the standard of suffering that I'll weigh it against. I can't imagine that it will be worse. I can endure a couple days of flu-like symptoms as long as I know I'm not "really" sick. Plus, covid can kill you and shingles doesn't, so the stakes are higher.

My insurance covered Shingrix 100% so at least it didn't kick my wallet.

https://www.cdc.gov/shingles/hcp/clinical-overview.html

One study estimated that 96 deaths occur each year in which herpes zoster was the actual underlying cause (0.28 to 0.69 per 1 million population). Almost all the deaths occurred in elderly people or those with compromised or suppressed immune systems.

Never had the shingles shot. Did get the pneumonia one once. Never again.

jztemple2 wrote:

LordMortis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:02 pm I think she has to so she can rent it out and rentals are going back up up up, as if the battle is over.

Hawaii must be like Florida in this respect. Hardly a house to be found to rent or buy. Construction is going on like mad.

I'm in Hawaii (Maui) right now and wouldn't liken it to traveling to Florida at all. My wife and I are both healthcare workers who have been vaccinated for a while, and I desperately needed a real break from the hospital, so we packed up our kids and flew from CT to Hawaii for 12 days.

The difference with Hawaii is that they are very strict with incoming travelers, still have a lot of restrictions in place once you're on the island, and are place where almost all things to do are outdoors. We all had to be tested within 72 hours of leaving the mainland, provided all our travel and lodging details to the state for tracking purposes, underwent health screening on arrival to the airport, and have to run the state's contact tracing app on our phones the whole time we're here. They are very strict with mask requirements in public places, and most businesses are not afraid to call people out or refuse service if you're not wearing a mask. They have a 30% capacity cap on restaurants, stores have strict limits on the number of people inside, and there's a 10pm curfew for all businesses...noone allowed in the building other than closing staff after 10:00 or the business can be fined/temporarily closed. The rules in Hawaii are far more strict than back home in CT at this point.

So why did we go? I've been dealing with COVID up close and personal for a year, needed a break, and this trip has been something that we could do with minimal people interaction others than the air travel. We rented a condo through Airbnb, bought some groceries to prepare a lot of meals on our own, and have pretty much kept to ourselves. We've spent our days either on the beach, hiking, or driving to see the sights...all with minimal contact with anyone else, and we've had a fantastic time. We had the opportunity to take our kids on an amazing trip that would have been cost-prohibitive in normal times, and we didn't regret to one but.

The only real catch in our mind has been traveling through airports and on the planes. It was a little shocking to see just how busy airports are now, and how much they feel like nothing is wrong. Everyone is wearing masks and they have Purell everywhere, but it's still a mess of people squeezing into too-small waiting areas like cramped planed. Our flights through JFK and Phoenix were packed full, without any seat spacing. Even though my wife and I are vaccinated, it still felt strange to be in that situation after so long away from crowds, but being on a flight full of others who have been screened prior to travel should mitigate some of that risk. We also travel with the knowledge that our kids are low-risk, a very good awareness of safety measures that we can take with them (and ages who cooperate), and time planned upon our return to isolate and test before rejoining life at home.

We do know that we took on some risk with the trip, but I would do it again in heartbeat.

disarm wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:54 am ...and have to run the state's contact tracing app on our phones the whole time we're here.

Wonder what they do if you don't have a smart phone.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:31 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:37 pm Got my Pfizer second dose this morning, So far so good. Definitely sore in the relevant arm. Maybe feeling a little something coming on now, but nothing major so I can't really tell if it's psychosomatic or not. Glad to have it done!

Arm isn't sore (yet?). It feels like it's waking up from "sleeping" Head is a little cloudy and stitch in my right side is coming and going. Nothing terrible and I hope it stays that way. Still I took tomorrow and Tuesday as vacation days as a precaution. The "worst" it could be is I feel fine and have to enjoy two days of vacation.

I had a couple of days of abdominal pain on my right side that I reported through V-Safe. It was several days after the shot, but seemed unusual so I reported it.

Another update from the CDC, Vaccinated people can gather, dine outdoors without masks

Vaccinated Americans don’t have to wear a mask when they dine outdoors and gather with unvaccinated people outside, according to new Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidance published Tuesday.
According to the new guidelines, fully vaccinated people can unmask for the following:
• Walking, running, hiking or biking outdoors alone or with members of your household
• Attending a small outdoor gathering with fully vaccinated family and friends
• Attending a small outdoor gathering with a mixture of fully vaccinated and unvaccinated people
• Dining at an outdoor restaurant with friends from multiple households

They kind of glossed over it, but there are some rules for indoor stuff as well.

And a nice chart:


To celebrate (not really ) we had dine-in dinner at a Taco Bell for the first time since this nonsense began. Tomorrow it's pizza, although we've been going there since they began allowing dine-in eating last summer.

I haven't dined-in since March 2020. I'm still not going to make a habit of it yet -- outdoor dining season is almost upon us -- but when I'm fully vaccinated in a little over two weeks, I'm going out for breakfast. We have a longstanding tradition every May of getting brunch at this small (and always crowded) breakfast restaurant, and then going to the nursery across the street to buy garden plants. Really missed doing that last year; it will be most satisfying to do it this year.

My wife said the weirdest thing to me yesterday. We were driving and talking about the fact that between us we didn't know of any family, friend or acquaintance that has had Covid. Then she says, kind of out of the blue, that if someone we knew had died of Covid she would have taken the precautions a lot more seriously when this whole thing started spring of last year. I was gob-smacked. Didn't the fact that anybody was dying make it rather serious? Yes, she said, but not personal. Hmm.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. This is a woman who I couldn't convince to wear a seatbelt for the first few years we were married because, she said, we were both safe drivers and she was never in an accident when wearing one would have made a difference. What changed her mind was when we were leaving the Kona Airport on the big island of Hawaii and a cop standing on the side of the road pulled us over. He saw that while I was wearing my seat belt (just like since I started driving) my wife wasn't, and even though she was a passenger the cop still wrote her a ticket. Well, principle is one thing, but money is another, and since then she's worn her seatbelt, although sometimes I have to gently remind her.

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:38 pm

jztemple2 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:43 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:13 pm For comparison, 25% of people don't go back for their second Shingrix shot.

Off topic....

Sheesh, I would, but since I don't have a Medicare part D they quoted me a price a couple of years ago of over $500 for the two shots, so I never signed up for it. Since I got the earlier shingles vaccine several years ago I'm thinking I might be reasonably OK.

Shingrix was the first vaccine that ever kicked my ass. The first shot sent me to bed for two days. I can understand why 25% of people who go through that say Nope nope nope. (Side fx from my second shot weren't as bad.) As I anticipate my second Pfizer this Saturday, Shingrix is the standard of suffering that I'll weigh it against. I can't imagine that it will be worse. I can endure a couple days of flu-like symptoms as long as I know I'm not "really" sick. Plus, covid can kill you and shingles doesn't, so the stakes are higher.

My insurance covered Shingrix 100% so at least it didn't kick my wallet.

The first shot made me feel weak for a day but the second shingles shock freaked me out. I woke up in the middle of the night needing to go to the bathroom but as I got up I had the worst uncontrollable chills and shivering I had ever had in my life. I did not have a fever, did not feel sweaty and clammy like you do when you usually have the chills, just freezing cold and shaking like crazy. I was just shaking so hard I could barely stand up, much less pee and hit the toilet. I somehow got back to the bed and buried myself under the sheets and this went on for a couple of hours before I stopped shivering. I slept some extra until noon but felt totally drained the next day when I finally did get up. Very freaky.

Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:34 pm The first shot made me feel weak for a day but the second shingles shock freaked me out. I woke up in the middle of the night needing to go to the bathroom but as I got up I had the worst uncontrollable chills and shivering I had ever had in my life. I did not have a fever, did not feel sweaty and clammy like you do when you usually have the chills, just freezing cold and shaking like crazy. I was just shaking so hard I could barely stand up, much less pee and hit the toilet. I somehow got back to the bed and buried myself under the sheets and this went on for a couple of hours before I stopped shivering. I slept some extra until noon but felt totally drained the next day when I finally did get up. Very freaky.

Good gosh .

Had second Moderna on Monday, not much different than the first time -- no issues day of, but that night and all day yesterday I was cursing whoever whacked my arm with a baseball bat. Today it is abating, just feels like a minor bruise and I'll probably not spend the day on the couch again.

GF and I both got our 1st AZ jab last Tuesday @1pm.
By midnight I was getting the tell tale signs of pending 'flu-like' symptoms: muscle aches/pains etc.
Took the day off Wednesday just to get extra sleep etc - treated the symptoms with Tylenol. Woke Thursday late and felt like nothing happened at all.

All in all - 24hrs of aches/pains and chills. No fever here.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:22 pm Yeah, I was waiting for more reporting and numbers, but that's...not good.

Those 5 million are 8% of the people who have had the chance to get the second shot. Isn't that within the realm of expectation? There's no way that 100% of the people getting the first shot could be expected to get the second, yes?

Chicago

A small number of people scheduled Tuesday to receive a second dose of the Moderna vaccine at Mariano's in Aurora were given the Pfizer vaccine instead.
...
Chaney said he and at least a half dozen other people had just received their shots and were sitting for the waiting period when the pharmacist told them about the mistake.
...
"The Mariano’s Pharmacy located in Aurora, IL administered a small number of Pfizer Covid-19 vaccines to people who had received the Moderna vaccine at their first appointment. No adverse events for the affected patients have been reported. All impacted patients have been contacted. We thank these patients for their understanding and have apologized for their inconvenience. Kroger Health has reported to both the CDC and the Illinois Department of Public Health, and our team is investigating the matter and will take steps to prevent a similar situation from recurring in the future."
...
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention offers similar guidance online: "If two doses of different mRNA COVID-19 vaccine products are administered in these situations (or inadvertently), no additional doses of either product are recommended at this time."

Lorini wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:18 am

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:22 pm Yeah, I was waiting for more reporting and numbers, but that's...not good.

Those 5 million are 8% of the people who have had the chance to get the second shot. Isn't that within the realm of expectation? There's no way that 100% of the people getting the first shot could be expected to get the second, yes?

I did read somewhere that while the gross numbers don't look great, the percentage wasn't so bad. Adding in getting at least one dose in provides some level of protection, the conclusion was that this wasn't a major point of concern. Somewhat along the lines of "X number of people have caught COVID after being vaccinated!" headlines when the percentage was still far, far better than if there had been no vaccination.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:27 am Chicago

A small number of people scheduled Tuesday to receive a second dose of the Moderna vaccine at Mariano's in Aurora were given the Pfizer vaccine instead.
...
Chaney said he and at least a half dozen other people had just received their shots and were sitting for the waiting period when the pharmacist told them about the mistake.
...
"The Mariano’s Pharmacy located in Aurora, IL administered a small number of Pfizer Covid-19 vaccines to people who had received the Moderna vaccine at their first appointment. No adverse events for the affected patients have been reported. All impacted patients have been contacted. We thank these patients for their understanding and have apologized for their inconvenience. Kroger Health has reported to both the CDC and the Illinois Department of Public Health, and our team is investigating the matter and will take steps to prevent a similar situation from recurring in the future."
...
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention offers similar guidance online: "If two doses of different mRNA COVID-19 vaccine products are administered in these situations (or inadvertently), no additional doses of either product are recommended at this time."

Now that's a recipe for superpowers! Add in a J&J or A-Z and you're a god.

Lorini wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:18 am 8% of the people who have had the chance to get the second shot. Isn't that within the realm of expectation? There's no way that 100% of the people getting the first shot could be expected to get the second, yes?

The issue is that it's ~2x the rate of the people that received their shots in Jan/Feb - the trend is concerning. My peers that aren't doomsayers are (probably rightfully) focused on the fact that ~92% of people did return. I just worry the trend is going to continue and I'm hoping there's a campaign being created to address it.

The shingles vaccine for adults has ~75% completion rate (for comparison, I don't think that's been mentioned), so I'm not entirely sure what the expectations were for this, but I'd be amazed if they were thinking it would dip below 90% just given the aggressive campaign that's being pursued.

Like everything else COVID-19 related, I guess we'll see.

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:30 am Now that's a recipe for superpowers! Add in a J&J or A-Z and you're a god.

Add both and see what happens.

didn't one dose of mRNA vaccine equal around 78% efficacy anyways? that's like J&J levels.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:31 am The shingles vaccine for adults has ~75% completion rate (for comparison, I don't think that's been mentioned), so I'm not entirely sure what the expectations were for this, but I'd be amazed if they were thinking it would dip below 90% just given the aggressive campaign that's being pursued.

Scroll up half a page.

I cannot keep up with all the topics, cross-posting and topic fence-jumping. Thanks.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:46 pm I cannot keep up with all the topics, cross-posting and topic fence-jumping. Thanks.

Can you hire someone to help you out on OO?

El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:26 pm Can you hire someone to help you out on OO?

I can't even run my two alt accounts here, much less keep up with COVID topics. We're living in crazy times!

How Pfizer vaccine is made.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... ccine.html

El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:26 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:46 pm I cannot keep up with all the topics, cross-posting and topic fence-jumping. Thanks.

Can you hire someone to help you out on OO?

Can you lend him your intern?

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:31 am
The shingles vaccine for adults has ~75% completion rate (for comparison, I don't think that's been mentioned), so I'm not entirely sure what the expectations were for this, but I'd be amazed if they were thinking it would dip below 90% just given the aggressive campaign that's being pursued.

At what point does the first dose become moot and they have to start the process all over again? I've not heard any specifics on that.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:53 pm At what point does the first dose become moot and they have to start the process all over again? I've not heard any specifics on that.

For vaccines, the concern is always that they're given too close (when there are multiple shots), with an ideal window for the second shot. I'm not sure I've seen reports or studies on people that get Shingrix #1 and then wait a year or two to get #2, but my impression is that they'd just give you the second shot and assume it's still boosting your immune system and adding protection. Maybe you won't get the full or best protection as if you followed the recommended schedule, but your immune system should still respond (from the first shot) and help. I don't believe they'd just start over and then give you a third shot. That's what they'd do for kids if they missed a shot series - just catch them up and make note.

I'm not sure what the plans are for Moderna and Pfizer to see what happens if you spread them out more. I'm assuming they'll study it eventually or maybe monitoring immune response is going to be part of the justification for a booster (which I'm fully expecting, btw).

Getting people through those "missed opportunities to vaccinate" is a whole separate element we promote. The idea that when you (or a kid) encounters a physician they should be auditing your vaccination history to determine if you're current or if you need to finish a series. I'd historically focused more on infants and kids than adults, but the last few times I've been to the doctor they asked me about both Tetanus and my DPT, and then gave me a booster (to protect against Whooping cough).

Maybe more than you wanted to know, but there you go.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:07 pm Maybe more than you wanted to know, but there you go.

That's not possible. If you wrote a 100,000 word dissertation I'd read it and not consider it TMI. Thank you very much for all of the information you pass along to this forum (I believe many others will second this).

I'm now looking forward to when the kids can get vaccinated. Both of mine have had generally positive experiences with the flu vaccine (once, the clinic I took them to gave them stuffed animals!) The Covid vaccines are less kind, however, so I'm wondering if the J&J gets approved, that would be better for them, I don't relish having to take them for a second shot if they have bad reactions to the first in the case of Pfizer (made my wife feel ill for a day) or Moderna (made me feel like I'd been bludgeoned by Jesus).

Jeff V wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:53 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:31 am
The shingles vaccine for adults has ~75% completion rate (for comparison, I don't think that's been mentioned), so I'm not entirely sure what the expectations were for this, but I'd be amazed if they were thinking it would dip below 90% just given the aggressive campaign that's being pursued.

At what point does the first dose become moot and they have to start the process all over again? I've not heard any specifics on that.

I had two series' of that. A couple of years after the first set they came out with a new one. Had those a year apart too. The VA loves to give you shots. Thank goodness they don't use the guns anymore.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:17 pm That's not possible. If you wrote a 100,000 word dissertation I'd read it and not consider it TMI. Thank you very much for all of the information you pass along to this forum (I believe many others will second this).

Ha! No problem - happy to help (though lord, I'm getting tired).

I'm now looking forward to when the kids can get vaccinated. Both of mine have had generally positive experiences with the flu vaccine (once, the clinic I took them to gave them stuffed animals!) The Covid vaccines are less kind, however, so I'm wondering if the J&J gets approved, that would be better for them, I don't relish having to take them for a second shot if they have bad reactions to the first in the case of Pfizer (made my wife feel ill for a day) or Moderna (made me feel like I'd been bludgeoned by Jesus).

I'm right there with you. If I could vaccinate my 15 year old tomorrow, I'd drag her to the doctor and have it done. I 100% empathize with parents of younger children. I feel bad that for now you need to rely on the community to do the right thing to help keep them protected, so you just need to stay the course and hope circulating virus levels in your area go down. King Fauci believes that the J&J shots for kids might be coming in Q1 2022, so I hope he's right. He does seem like a reliable fellow, so here's hoping.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:07 pm I'm not sure what the plans are for Moderna and Pfizer to see what happens if you spread them out more. I'm assuming they'll study it eventually or maybe monitoring immune response is going to be part of the justification for a booster (which I'm fully expecting, btw).

Canada is on that.

Canada's National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) now says the maximum interval between the first and second doses of all three COVID-19 vaccines approved for use in Canada should increase to four months in order to boost the number of Canadians being vaccinated.

For the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, that means going from a three week interval to a full four months.

"NACI recommends that in the context of limited COVID-19 vaccine supply, jurisdictions should maximize the number of individuals benefiting from the first dose of vaccine by extending the second dose of COVID-19 vaccine up to four months after the first," the committee said in a statement.

Prior to this new recommendation, NACI had said that the maximum interval between the first and second shots of the Moderna vaccine should be four weeks, the interval for the Pfizer-BioNTech product should be three weeks and the interval for the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine should be 12 weeks.

"While studies have not yet collected four months of data on vaccine effectiveness after the first dose, the first two months of real world effectiveness are showing sustained high levels of protection," NACI said.

NACI said that it reviewed evidence from two clinical trials that looked at how effective the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines were after a single dose.

Those studies, NACI said, showed the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines started providing some level of protection 12 to 14 days after the first dose. By the time the second dose was administered — 19 to 42 days after the first — the first shot was shown to be 92 per cent effective.

Outside of clinical trials, NACI looked at the effectiveness of a single shot of these two vaccines in the populations of Quebec, British Columbia, Israel, the United Kingdom and the United States.

NACI said that analysis showed the effectiveness of a single dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccine was between 70 per cent and 80 per cent among health care workers, long-term care residents, elderly populations and the general public.

"While this is somewhat lower than the efficacy demonstrated after one dose in clinical trials, it is important to note that vaccine effectiveness in a general population setting is typically lower than efficacy from the controlled setting of a clinical trial, and this is expected to be the case after series completion as well," NACI said.

The committee said that published data from an AstraZeneca clinical trial indicated that delaying the second dose 12 weeks or more provided better protections against symptomatic disease compared to shorter intervals between doses.

I would sign my two 12-year olds and 7yo up tomorrow if the vaccine were approved. I wish it could be one of the mRNA vaccines, but it seems most likely that they'll get J&J. We'll talk whatever they can get though. My understanding of the science leaves me with no worries about the safety of the vaccines for kids (or adults).

Ontario to expand COVID-19 vaccine eligibility to all adults by end of May

Ontario plans to substantially expand eligibility for COVID-19 vaccines in May, officials said Thursday, with shipments to the province expected to ramp up in the coming weeks.

With millions of doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines anticipated to begin arriving in Ontario, the province's vaccine task force says it can accelerate its timeline so all adults will be able to register for a first dose by the end of May.

When someone will actually receive their first shot depends on where they live and whether shipments stay on track, health officials cautioned at a media briefing today.

The revised outlook, based only on scheduled deliveries of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, breaks down like this:

• Week of April 26: All Ontario adults age 55 and up; those 45 years old and up in hot-spot communities; and licensed child-care workers.
• Week of May 3: Ontario adults over the age of 50; adults age 18 and up in hot-spot communities; those with health conditions deemed "high risk"; and some people who cannot work from home.
• Week of May 10: Ontario adults over the age of 40; those with health conditions deemed "at risk"; and more individuals who cannot work from home.
• Week of May 17: Ontario adults over the age of 30.
• Week of May 24: Ontario adults over the age of 18.

Elegibility for the 55+ cohort goes into effect at 0800 on 30 April.

Got my 2nd shot of Pfizer yesterday. Other than a mildly sore arm, no side effects. I'm almost disappointed (how else would I know that it's working? )