Disaster Tourism: The Titanic

[Kasey Chang]

Logitech controller apparently better quality than it was thought to be.
https://twitter.com/mearmalite10/status ... 6535677952

Clearly a fake, no way it'd have survived when the entire hull was turned into confetti.

[Rumpy]

I use the same controller for my PC gaming, and it's been pretty rock solid. But never expected it to survive being in the ocean, of all things.

I assumed it was a fake when I posted it

Yeah, it definitely could be. In fact it looks like a bad photoshop job at first glance. But with everything that went wrong with this thing, I don't find it to be so much of a stretch.

[jztemple2]

I use the same controller for my PC gaming, and it's been pretty rock solid. But never expected it to survive being in the ocean, of all things.

I assumed it was a fake when I posted it

Yeah, it definitely could be. In fact it looks like a bad photoshop job at first glance. But with everything that went wrong with this thing, I don't find it to be so much of a stretch.

Still, it was a fun meme while it lasted:

[Kraken]

I use the same controller for my PC gaming, and it's been pretty rock solid. But never expected it to survive being in the ocean, of all things.

I assumed it was a fake when I posted it

Yeah, it definitely could be. In fact it looks like a bad photoshop job at first glance. But with everything that went wrong with this thing, I don't find it to be so much of a stretch.

The dead expert did say that they chose this controller because they're indestructible, and they had backups on board just in case. I presume it was all quite well thought-out, but the man who made that call could not be reached for comment.

[em2nought]

I presume it was all quite well thought-out, but the man who made that call could not be reached for comment.

They probably just didn't try contact via the right "medium".

[Rumpy]

I use the same controller for my PC gaming, and it's been pretty rock solid. But never expected it to survive being in the ocean, of all things.

I assumed it was a fake when I posted it

Yeah, it definitely could be. In fact it looks like a bad photoshop job at first glance. But with everything that went wrong with this thing, I don't find it to be so much of a stretch.

The dead expert did say that they chose this controller because they're indestructible, and they had backups on board just in case. I presume it was all quite well thought-out, but the man who made that call could not be reached for comment.

Yeah, I heard they had multiples on board stashed away.

[Blackhawk]

And to be honest, I could imagine them surviving the implosion. From what I've read, it's the shockwave of the water moving through the hull, plus the compression involved, plus the incredible heat of said compression that creates the 'shredding' effect. Something that was fairly solid and could be freely moved (IE - would float around) might very well just be pushed away, especially if something else was between it and the immediate shockwave (like if it was in a container/compartment.)

It's hard to say, though. Most of the studies I've seen were conducted with full-sized subs, not miniatures.

[Carpet_pissr]

I wonder how ironclad (ha!-ish) any signed waiver was for this voyage? You would think billionaire heirs would have access to a lot of attorney power. OTOH, if they are billionaire heirs, why would they? The person primarily responsible for the "event" is also dead (so revenge is out), I assume his company will be closing down soon if not already (so financial payback is probably also out - from where would they get the money?). Material manufacturers?

Just remembering when I had to sign a liklely similar waiver when I did skydiving a few times, how "tight" are those things? In our hyper litigious society, I imagine even signing a doc that says IF I DIE AS A RESULT OF THIS TRIP, NEITHER I, NOR MY HEIRS, WILL SUE ANYONE RELATED TO THIS COMPANY could be dismissed, or ignored, or "fought around". Which is crazy IMO.

[malchior]

Waivers have limits like most other contracts - usually revolving around gross negligence. I did ask my brother in law who specializes in maritime law about this and it sounds like even contemplating whether a lawsuit makes sense will be expensive.

[em2nought]

Mythbusters shows the effect of 135 PSI. It's 5,800 PSI down at Titanic's depth.

https://twitter.com/ChudsOfTikTok/statu ... 4953956360

[jztemple2]

I wonder how ironclad (ha!-ish) any signed waiver was for this voyage? You would think billionaire heirs would have access to a lot of attorney power. OTOH, if they are billionaire heirs, why would they? The person primarily responsible for the "event" is also dead (so revenge is out), I assume his company will be closing down soon if not already (so financial payback is probably also out - from where would they get the money?). Material manufacturers?

Just remembering when I had to sign a liklely similar waiver when I did skydiving a few times, how "tight" are those things? In our hyper litigious society, I imagine even signing a doc that says IF I DIE AS A RESULT OF THIS TRIP, NEITHER I, NOR MY HEIRS, WILL SUE ANYONE RELATED TO THIS COMPANY could be dismissed, or ignored, or "fought around". Which is crazy IMO.

Wherher you signed a waiver or not, you can still sue. The suit could be based on misrepresentation or other reasons. It would be up to a judge or jury to decide if the suit was valid.

And to be honest, I could imagine them surviving the implosion. From what I've read, it's the shockwave of the water moving through the hull, plus the compression involved, plus the incredible heat of said compression that creates the 'shredding' effect. Something that was fairly solid and could be freely moved (IE - would float around) might very well just be pushed away, especially if something else was between it and the immediate shockwave (like if it was in a container/compartment.)

It's hard to say, though. Most of the studies I've seen were conducted with full-sized subs, not miniatures.

I'd be interested in seeing the size of the cylinder pieces that are left. I imagine that for organizations like submarine designers a detailed study would be useful.

[Blackhawk]

No doubt, although the materials involved will likely make the data less useful (since nobody else is going to have vessels that make use of them.)

[Rumpy]

I wonder how ironclad (ha!-ish) any signed waiver was for this voyage?

That's what I've been wondering. Given the lunacy of the whole undertaking seeing as the sub wasn't rated for those depths, I doubt the waiver would hold. I don't think some of those who went down knew the whole picture, and then there's the whole gross negligence aspect to it. Basically, it's not as airtight as the owner would have thought. The waiver in this case seems like a copout to hide away the dangers of his own making and absolve himself from them.

The difference between this waiver and the one you'd be signing for skydiving, is that with skydiving it's at least done with proven equipment and with complete professionals who have done it hundreds of times. Both equipment and skydivers have been certified and the waivers are there for the freak accidents that nobody can foresee. A waiver in the case of the sub has none of those things going for it and therefore feels like it bears less weight.

[Holman]

I assume that company is doomed and that every engineer involved is lawyering up. If they're actually smart, they will have long-since documented any criticisms or misgivings they had about the design.

As for the person most responsible, well...

[jztemple2]

No doubt, although the materials involved will likely make the data less useful (since nobody else is going to have vessels that make use of them.)

Well, never say never. And while carbon fiber might not be used human modules it might be useful for other pressure vessels associated with a submersible.

[jztemple2]

There was a segment on CBS Sunday Morning this morning about the disaster and David Pogue talked a lot more about his visit on the Titan. He also said something which I confess in all the hubbub I missed, that the Titan in the previous two years had made twelve trips to the Titanic. I then did some digging and found this article from GeekWire, Beyond the Titanic: OceanGate’s founder contemplates future deep-sea frontiers, which states "Now Rush has 13 Titanic dives under his belt: six in 2021, and seven in 2022". So perhaps it wasn't as irresponsible for those lost four passengers to have taken this trip with Rush as it seemed at first blush, and again I'll point the finger at myself for being caught up in the hype .

[Rumpy]

Yes, but it also wasn't with this particular sub. The company has multiple subs, most of which were already proven and certified. This is probably what his successful dives were done with, not with this particular sub that had repeated warnings against it.

[jztemple2]

Yes, but it also wasn't with this particular sub. The company has multiple subs, most of which were already proven and certified. This is probably what his successful dives were done with, not with this particular sub that had repeated warnings against it.

Hmm, Wikipedia and the quoted article both say it was the Titan that made those dives in 2021 and 2022. The wiki article says that they original hull was tested in 2018 and 2019 but developed fatigue damage. There's this from the wiki:

After the tests were completed in January 2020, the hull of Titan began showing signs of cyclic fatigue and the craft was de-rated to 3,000 m (9,800 ft). The Spencer-built composite cylindrical hull either was repaired or replaced by Electroimpact and Janicki Industries in 2020 or 2021, prior to the first trips to Titanic.

So the cylindrical, carbon fiber mid-section was either repaired or replaced and the sub put back together and visited the Titanic a dozen or so times altogether in 2021 & 2022. There is no mention of any repairs or replacements prior to the 2023 trip.

[jztemple2]

By the way there are articles on GeekWire regarding the 2021 and 2022 trips made by Titan.

And here's a Tweet from 2022:

[Max Peck]

Yes, but it also wasn't with this particular sub. The company has multiple subs, most of which were already proven and certified. This is probably what his successful dives were done with, not with this particular sub that had repeated warnings against it.

This was the third year that the Titan had been diving operationally, with paying customers. It didn't fail on it's first ever dive, it failed on it's first dive of 2023.

Titan was the second submersible designed and built by OceanGate, with an intended maximum depth of 4,000 m (13,000 ft). It was the first completed crewed submersible that used a hull constructed of titanium and carbon fiber composite materials, as most other human-carrying submersibles are designed with an all-metal pressure vessel.

After testing with dives to its maximum intended depth in 2018 and 2019, the original composite hull of Titan developed fatigue damage and was replaced by 2021. In that year, OceanGate began operating a tourist service to visit the wreck of the RMS Titanic, completing several dives to the wreck site in both 2021 and 2022.

On June 18, 2023, OceanGate lost contact with Titan during its first dive in 2023 to the Titanic. Loss-of-contact had occurred multiple times during previous test and tour dives, so OceanGate did not alert authorities until the submersible was overdue for its return. A massive international search-and-rescue operation ensued and ended on June 22, when debris from Titan, which had been destroyed in a catastrophic implosion, was discovered close to the bow of Titanic.

It is perhaps interesting to note that the original hull developed enough fatique damage to require replacement after 2 years of testing, and the replacement hull failed after 2 years of operational use. Probably just a coincidence, I'm sure.

Neither of OceanGate's previous submersibles, Antipodes and Cyclops 1, were capable of diving on the Titanic. Antipodes was a used submersible that was originally built by the Sperry Submarine Company in 1973, while Cyclops 1 was developed by OceanGate, using a used steel hull that they refitted to their own design.

Antipodes is a steel-hulled submersible capable of reaching depths of 300 metres (1,000 ft), acquired by OceanGate in 2010. OceanGate transported its first paying customers in the vessel in 2010 off the coast of Catalina Island in California. The submersible was later contracted to expeditions to explore corals, lionfish populations in Florida, and a former oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico. By 2013 OceanGate had made over 130 dives with the vessel.

In March 2015, OceanGate unveiled the Cyclops 1, a 5-person steel-hulled submersible capable of diving up to 500 meters (1,640 ft) under water. It measures approximately 6.7 m (22 feet) long and 2.7 m (9 feet) wide, and weighs about 9,100 kg (20,000 pounds). Its name was inspired by its strengthened acrylic window. The submersible is steered by a modified PlayStation game controller, and the vessel has a battery life of up to 8 hours. The vessel has been used for various commercial and academic expeditions.

OceanGate created Cyclops 1 in collaboration with the University of Washington's Applied Physics Laboratory; Boeing worked with OceanGate and the University of Washington for initial design analysis. In the initial design, the hull was to be made of carbon fiber, but this idea was scrapped in favor of a steel hull. OceanGate acquired the steel hull for Cyclops 1 in 2013, after it had been used for 12 years, and fitted it with a new interior, underwater sensors, and gamepad pilot control system.

In June 2016 Cyclops 1 was used to survey the wreck of SS Andrea Doria 73 m (240 feet) below the surface. The survey data were intended to build a computer model of the wreck and its surroundings to improve navigation. In 2019 the craft was used to transport researchers to the bottom of Puget Sound to conduct marine biology surveys

Edit: Dammit jztemple2! $bam++

[Rumpy]

This was the third year that the Titan had been diving operationally, with paying customers. It didn't fail on it's first ever dive, it failed on it's first dive of 2023.

Well, my Bad. I was under the assumption it had never been at that particular depth. This is partly because there's just so much contradictory information coming in that it's hard to get it straight. But I do believe they had other subs at their disposal for different types of dives, and it's those that are proven and rated.

[em2nought]

Somebody should have given that thing a good coat or two or three of latex paint for plastic. That's what I do with any plastic that's going to be outside in Florida. I even took the grill off my 2nd mini-split AC and painted the fan blade. First mini-split the blade shattered and destroyed the coils which are pressed together squares of thin aluminum, like a soda can, with a pressed hole in the center. There isn't solid copper or aluminum pipe anymore, the thing that still had my uncle's AC running from 1970 until 2010 at least.

I notice in a video that they had a custom made tarp for the front window. Whole thing should have been tarped.

[jztemple2]

Edit: Dammit jztemple2! $bam++

???

[Max Peck]

Edit: Dammit jztemple2! $bam++

???

You isgrimnured me by addressing the same issue while I was occupied in writing up my novella, so I self-bammed in order to save time.

[Pyperkub]

I'm a bit amused at the thought of future Titanic Archeologists finding a Rubik's Cube (along side the Logitech controllers) in the neighborhood of the Titanic Wreckage...

Speaking of her son, Mrs Dawood said Suleman loved the Rubik's Cube so much that he carried it with him everywhere, dazzling onlookers by solving the complex puzzle in 12 seconds.

"He said, 'I'm going to solve the Rubik's Cube 3,700 metres below sea at the Titanic'."

Suleman was a student at the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow, in the UK. Businessman Shahzada Dawood, who was British, was from one of Pakistan's richest families.

RIP

[Isgrimnur]

Presumed human remains and shattered Titanic submersible returned to shore

Debris from the tourist submersible destroyed in an implosion that killed the five people aboard were recovered along with presumed human remains and brought ashore on Wednesday for examination, the U.S. Coast Guard said.

The shattered remnants of the Titan, destroyed while diving to the wreck of the Titanic, and what were believed to be human remains were carried to port in St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada, about 400 miles north of the accident site, by the Canadian-flagged vessel Horizon Arctic, according to the Coast Guard.

The evidence will be transported by Coast Guard cutter to a U.S. port for analysis and testing by a marine board of investigation convened this week to conduct a formal inquiry into the loss of the Titan, the agency said.

U.S. medical professionals also "will conduct a formal analysis of presumed human remains that have been carefully recovered within the wreckage at the site of the incident," the Coast Guard statement added.

The nature and scope of the remains were not specified.

[Punisher]

Guess it's really confirmed now.

[Max Peck]

Fingers crossed that they recovered the Logitech controller.

In other Logitech controller news, AP fact checkers were able to locate the original photo that was 'shopped to produce the fake image that made the rounds.

Game controller used in Titan submersible has not been located on the ocean floor

CLAIM: An image shows the video game controller used to steer the Titan submersible lying on the ocean floor.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: Altered image. An underwater photo from a 2020 BBC story has been altered to include the controller. A marine researcher whose team captured the original image as part of a deep sea study confirmed it dates to 2015 and shows the Pacific Ocean floor, not the Atlantic Ocean, where the submersible imploded earlier this month near the wreck of the Titanic. The U.S. Coast Guard has also said no images of the Titan have been released by the international team of investigators looking into the cause of the disaster.

[Hipolito]

If they do find the game controller, they should leave it there as a grim reminder of man's continuing hubris.

[Sudy]

[em2nought]

Oops

[Max Peck]

The New Yorker has a good overview of the Titan debacle.

The Titan Submersible Was “an Accident Waiting to Happen”

The primary task of a submersible is to not implode. The second is to reach the surface, even if the pilot is unconscious, with oxygen to spare. The third is for the occupants to be able to open the hatch once they surface. The fourth is for the submersible to be easy to find, through redundant tracking and communications systems, in case rescue is required. Only the fifth task is what is ordinarily thought of as the primary one: to transport people into the dark, hostile deep.

[Rumpy]

That about sums it up. Talk about a substandard performance. I wonder if now any civilian or commercial sub will be required to have some sort of blackbox. There has to be something developed that would work as tracking. I'd also think getting them rated would be a requirement with fines being handed out for refusal. One can't be an Aquatic Cowboy and expect success.

[Max Peck]

[Punisher]

That about sums it up. Talk about a substandard performance. I wonder if now any civilian or commercial sub will be required to have some sort of blackbox. There has to be something developed that would work as tracking. I'd also think getting them rated would be a requirement with fines being handed out for refusal. One can't be an Aquatic Cowboy and expect success.

But can there even be requirements for something operating in International waters?

[Rumpy]

I would think so. They could otherwise be violating international law. And think of it this way, no country wants to risk causing an international incident. There are regulated bodies for a reason.

[Punisher]

I would think so. They could otherwise be violating international law. And think of it this way, no country wants to risk causing an international incident. There are regulated bodies for a reason.

Hmm. I thought that was the whole reason for the Titans troubled existence. It was being used in International waters so nobody really had any jurisdiction over it.

[Isgrimnur]

But the ships that have to be operated to get a submersible around all have to be registered out of somewhere.

[Punisher]

Yes but they can be registered to a country with very lax regulations plus that wouldn't cover the sub at all I don't think.
I would think that if there was an ability for regulations on things like this there would alteady be some.

[Max Peck]

The New Yorker article spells out the extent that Rush went through specifically to avoid any sort of regulation.

“Stockton strategically structured everything to be out of U.S. jurisdiction” for its Titanic pursuits, the former senior OceanGate employee told me. “It was deliberate.” In a legal filing, the company reported that the submersible was “being developed and assembled in Washington, but will be owned by a Bahamian entity, will be registered in the Bahamas and will operate exclusively outside the territorial waters of the United States.” Although it is illegal to transport passengers in an unclassed, experimental submersible, “under U.S. regulations, you can kill crew,” McCallum told me. “You do get in a little bit of trouble, in the eyes of the law. But, if you kill a passenger, you’re in big trouble. And so everyone was classified as a ‘mission specialist.’ There were no passengers—the word ‘passenger’ was never used.” No one bought tickets; they contributed an amount of money set by Rush to one of OceanGate’s entities, to fund their own missions.

“It is truly hard to imagine the discernment it took for Stockton to string together each of the links in the chain,” Patrick noted. “ ‘How do I avoid liability in Washington State? How do I avoid liability with an offshore corporate structure? How do I keep the U.S. Coast Guard from breathing down my neck?’ ”