Octopus Overlords

It was a solid SOTU. He laid out a comprehensive, positive vision with clear steps to achieve it and then touched on all of the major issues of the day, and he delivered it as well as we can ever expect from Biden (who has never been a gifted orator). It's a much better agenda than I ever expected from him, and I hope that we can achieve large parts of it.

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:37 pm I also heard pretty much no real policy proposals.

Let's be honest, when was the last time the GOP had any actual policy proposals outside of cutting taxes for the rich?

I thought Biden did a good job, and I fully expect any positive progress towards his stated goals to be stonewalled for no other reason than because they came from a Democrat. We'll hear lots of the usual "but, but...soshalisms!" and newfound concern over fiscal conservatism thrown around, but at the end of the day it all simply boils down to stigginit.

Much to the detriment of us all.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:16 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:37 pm I also heard pretty much no real policy proposals.

Let's be honest, when was the last time the GOP had any actual policy proposals outside of cutting taxes for the rich?

They also have "Guns good!" and "Abortion bad!"

It was fun watching even "sane Republicans" like Romney shift uncomfortably in their seats when Biden started talking about the GOP tax cuts and making corporations pay their fair share. They only care about two things in this world, money and power, and they don't care how many lives have to be lost or impacted to keep it.

Yeah it makes them squirm because beyond its all they care about, they know it is pretty much the only thing the Democrats can *actually* do unless they can figure out a way to pressure Sinema/Manchin to soften the blow. Which is going to be the game.

Kurth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:31 pm McConnell and his cronies are not at all cornered because they’ll vote against all this stuff with pride and tell their constituents back home that they held the line against the Democrat party. And in the end, that’s really all that matters.

Maybe cornered isn't the right word then. What I'm getting at is that they'll be forced to vote and my impression (maybe it's incorrect) is that Senators in particular like to be able to say "Well, if it comes to vote I'll decide then" rather than needing to answer for why they voted Y/N on a specific issue. Mitch has been giving them that smokescreen since 2015 and now it's (potentially) gone. I know they're all awful but I still believe actually voting against something wildly popular or laser-focused on a social issue will haunt them. Case in point - Sinema and her vote against minimum wage.

But yes, as malchior noted both Sinema and Manchin (maybe others?) are wildcard Democrats so maybe there isn't a lock on anything.

But maybe - just maybe - if the press can do their job and hammer the Senators that (for example) vote against raising children out of poverty or trying to make sure no child in America goes hungry it will build momentum and pushback against the Republican's disinformation campaign for 2022 and 2024.

I think this is one area where the filibuster shows how it is a huge problem now. McConnell et. al. isn't just using it to defeat democratic representation, they have also transmogrified it into a broad accountability shield.

If the thing we want to hold a Senator accountable on is in the bill, then filibuster the whole thing and they can't be pinned down on the one thing unless they specifically comment on it. There is no real solution to this.

If we try to break the thing out of the bill as an amendment to make them vote on it then they have an easy filibuster defense. The filibuster accountability shield springs up at will and the issue is basically tabled. This is exacerbating and encouraging GOP solidarity. As long as you don't have the votes to break the shield then it holds. That is why the 'Greatest Deliberative' body bullshit is a sham. The filibuster has essentially cut off discussion on anything meaningful. But we have misguided fools like Manchin who believe in fairy tales about the Senate and tunnel vision on how 'bipartisanship' is the only form of good governance when our governance structure is broken. It's infuriating.

Don't kid yourself on what Manchin believes. He believes in maintaining his power just like the Republicans (and the vast majority of Democrats) do and thus he won't do anything that risks his power. He may come out and forcefully reprimand them for being horrible people after he decides to retire though.

Biden gains a major step to reverse Florida Man's war on the postal service.

If Manchin's concern was power, wouldn't he want to get rid of the filibuster? That would make his the 50th vote out of 50, instead of the 50th vote out of 60, and thus an even more important vote..

Defiant wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:03 pm If Manchin's concern was power, wouldn't he want to get rid of the filibuster? That would make his the 50th vote out of 50, instead of the 50th vote out of 60, and thus an even more important vote..

The problem is that abolishing the filibuster would make his political position in WV much more difficult, on account of the West Virginia electorate being *much* more conservative than him. He would regularly be in the position of having to cast the 50th vote on Democratic bills, which West Virginians would see as him being directly responsible for enacting the "Schumer / Pelosi / AOC agenda".

Whereas if the filibuster is in place his vote is rarely if ever going to be outcome determinative, so he can vote however he thinks will best help his reelection chances.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:13 pm

Defiant wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:03 pm If Manchin's concern was power, wouldn't he want to get rid of the filibuster? That would make his the 50th vote out of 50, instead of the 50th vote out of 60, and thus an even more important vote..

The problem is that abolishing the filibuster would make his political position in WV much more difficult, on account of the West Virginia electorate being *much* more conservative than him. He would regularly be in the position of having to cast the 50th vote on Democratic bills, which West Virginians would see as him being directly responsible for enacting the "Schumer / Pelosi / AOC agenda".

Whereas if the filibuster is in place his vote is rarely if ever going to be outcome determinative, so he can vote however he thinks will best help his reelection chances.

Yeah he is constantly playing a double game. It is to maintain his competitiveness. Now if he announces his retirement in the next year or two, I'll start assuming there is some boomer conspiracy to sink the nation because they already got theirs or something.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:23 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:13 pm

Defiant wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:03 pm If Manchin's concern was power, wouldn't he want to get rid of the filibuster? That would make his the 50th vote out of 50, instead of the 50th vote out of 60, and thus an even more important vote..

The problem is that abolishing the filibuster would make his political position in WV much more difficult, on account of the West Virginia electorate being *much* more conservative than him. He would regularly be in the position of having to cast the 50th vote on Democratic bills, which West Virginians would see as him being directly responsible for enacting the "Schumer / Pelosi / AOC agenda".

Whereas if the filibuster is in place his vote is rarely if ever going to be outcome determinative, so he can vote however he thinks will best help his reelection chances.

Yeah he is constantly playing a double game. It is to maintain his competitiveness. Now if he announces his retirement in the next year or two, I'll start assuming there is some boomer conspiracy to sink the nation because they already got theirs or something.

Well, in the short term that could be helpful as it would free Manchin from having to worry about the WV electorate for the next few years. In the long term the Democrats won't sniff this Senate seat for decades after Manchin is gone.

Remus West wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:50 pm Don't kid yourself on what Manchin believes. He believes in maintaining his power just like the Republicans (and the vast majority of Democrats) do and thus he won't do anything that risks his power. He may come out and forcefully reprimand them for being horrible people after he decides to retire though.

Beat me to it. I very seriously doubt Manchin is behaving the way he is due to some noble political fairy tale ideals. I could be wrong, and in this case, would love to be, actually. He's in a uniquely powerful position for his ACTUAL position, and he knows it (unless he is just a complete moron). He's also flirting with danger as mentioned, wrt to his very conservative constituents.

Case in point regarding my earlier comments - Ted Cruz and Mike Lee hate clean drinking water; it really is that easy.

Breaking: The Senate has just passed the Drinking Water and Wastewater Infrastructure Act of 2021, 89-2.

The 'no' votes were Ted Cruz and Mike Lee.

Of course we need a detailed breakdown for the 9 that didn't vote. Rand Paul was one of them, but I was glad to see thirsty Marco Rubio voted in favor.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:16 pm Case in point regarding my earlier comments - Ted Cruz and Mike Lee hate clean drinking water; it really is that easy.

No. They just hate that you expect it. If shit happens around Cruz, he'll scapegoat his daughters and talk about how they wanted to go to Mexico.

The appeal of voting against popular legislation is that it fluffs your "Voted against the Democrats" statistic (necessary for campaign purposes) while costing you nothing (since no one remembers specific votes).

Not sure if this is the same vote (it's a cloture vote that went 92-2) but the non-voters were:


Blunt (R-MO)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cramer (R-ND)
Paul (R-KY)
Rounds (R-SD)
Shelby (R-AL)

Holman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:33 pm The appeal of voting against popular legislation is that it fluffs your "Voted against the Democrats" statistic (necessary for campaign purposes) while costing you nothing (since no one remembers specific votes).

Plus if they get called out they'll say they had some appropriate to that exact moment objection about some minor aspect of the bill...but they supported it in principle. Blah blah.

Then I look forward to the press really hammering Cruz and Lee over exactly why they hate the idea of all Americans having easy access to fresh, clean drinking water. What specifically was their objection when so many of their fellow legislators felt this was important.

Smoove_B wrote:Then I look forward to the press really hammering Cruz and Lee over exactly why they hate the idea of all Americans having easy access to fresh, clean drinking water.

The voters that we need to flip aren't watching the same press that will be hammering them over drinking water.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:50 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Then I look forward to the press really hammering Cruz and Lee over exactly why they hate the idea of all Americans having easy access to fresh, clean drinking water.

The voters that we need to flip aren't watching the same press that will be hammering them over drinking water.

The voters will never flip because in their minds it's only democrats and black people that get affected by this, like up in Flint.

For those still thinking Biden needs to "build bridges"

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said today that "100% of my focus is on stopping this new administration." Response from @presssec
: "I guess the contrast for people is 100% of our focus is on delivering relief to the American people and getting the pandemic under control."

Who would have thought. I'm sure Manchin will come around any time now.

Edit: I'm sort of curious when people are going to say enough is enough. Seriously. McConnell said the *EXACT SAME THING* during the beginning of the Obama administration and then did it. We're 10+ years along and the same shit about bipartisanship still owns the airwaves. We're a deeply, deeply, deeply unserious country.

I, for one, am entirely shocked that Mitch McConnell is exactly the same as Mitch McConnell. Who could have known that Mitch McConnell would take up the mantle of Mitch McConnell and use the same plan designed by Mitch McConnell last time?

Way to BAM me with an edit, malchior...

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:02 pm Way to BAM me with an edit, malchior...

Sorrrrry. I still can't believe the villain goes on tv and tells you exactly what he is going to do and the VSP are like...Biden you need to win him over. Hope is fading fast.

Edit: THIS. Over and over. Every day. Enough with this bipartisanship click bait.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:02 pm I, for one, am entirely shocked that Mitch McConnell is exactly the same as Mitch McConnell. Who could have known that Mitch McConnell would take up the mantle of Mitch McConnell and use the same plan designed by Mitch McConnell last time?

Every time Mitch McConnell acts like a giant bell end and upper-decks democracy, I will post it. The anger I feel sustains me, like a never ending ham sandwich.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:38 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:02 pm I, for one, am entirely shocked that Mitch McConnell is exactly the same as Mitch McConnell. Who could have known that Mitch McConnell would take up the mantle of Mitch McConnell and use the same plan designed by Mitch McConnell last time?

Every time Mitch McConnell acts like a giant bell end and upper-decks democracy, I will post it. The anger I feel sustains me, like a never ending ham sandwich.

It's like being mad at the devil. I'm mad at *everyone* who let's him get away with it over and over. It's not even like Lucy with the football. No one is trying to even kick it. They just shrug at Lucy. That is where my rage derives from. All the people who should care just don't. Mostly because none of this shit affects them.

That's fair. I rage because he does and says these things and everyone looks around and says, "well, what are you going to do? That's how this works."

So samsies, I guess. It's not like we could could change the process or the balance by adding new members.

And So Manchin and his disciples will shuffle their feet and we'll slide into chaos in 2022 and beyond.

malchior wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:56 pm McConnell said the *EXACT SAME THING* during the beginning of the Obama administration and then did it.

IIRC, he said his #1 priority was to make Obama a one-term president, and he didn't. But the meaning is the same.

Republicans have no policies and are unpopular with the majority of voters. Obstruction and rule-breaking are all they've got. And it's working out pretty well for them.

New drinking game:
Every time Mitch McConnell either talks or acts in an obstructive manner, drink!

Every time Malchior types “unserious”, drink!

Every time Malchior types “deeply unserious”, well, then, my friend, you drink once, and an additional drink for every “deeply” modifying “unserious”!

Kraken wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 9:51 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:56 pm McConnell said the *EXACT SAME THING* during the beginning of the Obama administration and then did it.

IIRC, he said his #1 priority was to make Obama a one-term president, and he didn't. But the meaning is the same.

Right - in the same remarks I believe he said he'd work with Obama if he'd meet them in the middle. But of course he was lying. Obama faced unending obstruction his entire Presidency. But a decent portion of the VSP would tut-tut that the problem is overblown and Obama should have worked harder to meet them in the middle.

Republicans have no policies and are unpopular with the majority of voters. Obstruction and rule-breaking are all they've got. And it's working out pretty well for them.

Yeah. That's why I keep preparing because the ride will get bumpy eventually.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 10:11 pm New drinking game:
Every time Mitch McConnell either talks or acts in an obstructive manner, drink!

Every time Malchior types “unserious”, drink!

Every time Malchior types “deeply unserious”, well, then, my friend, you drink once, and an additional drink for every “deeply” modifying “unserious”!

Fair enough. Perhaps it is time to substitute in clown shoes liberally instead.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 10:11 pm New drinking game:
Every time Mitch McConnell either talks or acts in an obstructive manner, drink!

Every time Malchior types “unserious”, drink!

Every time Malchior types “deeply unserious”, well, then, my friend, you drink once, and an additional drink for every “deeply” modifying “unserious”!

Well, I'm drunk, but that was bound to happen anyway.

What are the very serious people supposed to do? Manchin ain't moving. No Rs are jumping on board. You can only do so much with budget reconciliation. There are enough R voters to keep the Senate in a stranglehold. Reality isn't even in the picture for too many of them and the ones that will acknowledge reality are still 100% locked in by guns and abortion and other single issues.

The corporate backlash on the GA voting bill was about the only thing giving me hope but now that the publicity is dying down I expect that will as well.

This is really the perfect opportunity for Manchin and Sinema to board the dump the filibuster train. The purported reason for keeping it is to maintain the charade of the "World's Greatest Deliberative Bodybs", but if McConnell has specifically said that he's not going to deliberate in good faith, it gives Manchin and Sinema cover to ditch it.

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 1:08 pm This is really the perfect opportunity for Manchin and Sinema to board the dump the filibuster train. The purported reason for keeping it is to maintain the charade of the "World's Greatest Deliberative Bodybs", but if McConnell has specifically said that he's not going to deliberate in good faith, it gives Manchin and Sinema cover to ditch it.

It does. Someone should put them to the question about it. To answer the previous question - the only thing the VSP can do is start asking questions very loudly and clearly. The time to get off the sidelines or stop pulling punches is now.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 1:13 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 1:08 pm This is really the perfect opportunity for Manchin and Sinema to board the dump the filibuster train. The purported reason for keeping it is to maintain the charade of the "World's Greatest Deliberative Bodybs", but if McConnell has specifically said that he's not going to deliberate in good faith, it gives Manchin and Sinema cover to ditch it.

It does. Someone should put them to the question about it. To answer the previous question - the only thing the VSP can do is start asking questions very loudly and clearly. The time to get off the sidelines and stop pulling punches was Jan 2017 or before.

FTFY

Remus West wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 1:16 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 1:13 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 1:08 pm This is really the perfect opportunity for Manchin and Sinema to board the dump the filibuster train. The purported reason for keeping it is to maintain the charade of the "World's Greatest Deliberative Bodybs", but if McConnell has specifically said that he's not going to deliberate in good faith, it gives Manchin and Sinema cover to ditch it.

It does. Someone should put them to the question about it. To answer the previous question - the only thing the VSP can do is start asking questions very loudly and clearly. The time to get off the sidelines and stop pulling punches was Jan 2017 or before.

FTFY

Remus beat me to it.