An opportunity for Democrats to prove they are the "bigger" party

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:32 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:21 pm ??? Jordan was an election denier. I don't understand this point.

My point is that there is nothing for the Dems to do here but wait for the GOP to get their fingers out of their asses. You want them to compromise but there has been no compromise possible, so why even bring it up at this point?

When (if?) the GOP put forth a sane candidate for speaker I think the Dems should negotiate with that person in exchange for their votes. That's how it is supposed to work. Until there is a sane candidate, why harp about the Dems at all? It's like you're condemning them for not meeting in the middle with hostage takers, but worse, there is no opportunity for them to even do that (which is a bad idea for so many reasons).

Your country is at a crossroads. Compromising is only going to push the problem back a little, and make it that much harder to fix later.

This idea that the Dems are being petty and small because the GOP can't find a candidate that the *GOP* are willing to vote for is asinine.

Let's take another look at this thread when the GOP put up someone viable (by your standards) and the Dems decide dysfunction is a better option. Until then, this whole thread is complete bullshit.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:34 pm

The "squad" is a boogeyman. They don't have that much power. Folks on Fox News would you like to believe otherwise, but they don't. They couldn't do what the Hateful Eight have done...nor would they, I believe.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:40 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:30 pm ...Anyway, this is where the problem that Hepcat describes kicks in. It'd be tantamount to the Democrats voting for that Speaker and they'd have no control of the caucus. They'd be on a knife's edge fending off attacks. It might sound like a "feel" better to so-called independents but they'd quickly see it presents little functional difference...

The Democrats would have their back on the important stuff until the 2024 election (which I thought was the strategy with McCarthy after the Government debt deal, and I think he thought the same thing, but would never admit it), then we can revise our strategy accordingly. If anyone else has a better idea of how to get out of this mess, I would love to hear it. Expecting the GOP to put forth someone who's more reasonable than McCarthy is a pipe dream at this point. We're either getting a Hard Right speaker who will be a danger as I've already described, or we'll have never-ending chaos, which will be even worse. I think supporting a speaker we can work with is the lesser evil of the choices Democrats currently have.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:41 pm

The other outcome you keep glossing over is that America gets sick of their shit, votes them out and we get control again.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:43 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:31 pm But are they that different than the Squad? My fear is that the Far Left will slowly but surely grow in influence in the Party until we're just as paralyzed as the GOP.

First, there is no evidence of this. Second, it's an entirely different point than is being discussed here. It is not a supporting argument. Third, the entire world is reacting as the squad is reacting. Just as this forum is not 100% behind one side or the other, the rest of the world is split too. Both the UK and Canada have had protests and/or rallies in the streets where Hamas is celebrated, as horrifying as that might be to many.

Fourth, as Hepcat says, the "squad" are not nearly as unified in purpose as the Maga election deniers, nor do they wield even a modicum of the power within their party that Maga does in the GOP.

I don't know what to tell you. As long as the Dems keep showing up for their jobs and try to meet their responsibilities, they will always have the moral high ground and thus be the bigger party. Right now. Today. How big do they need to be?

edit: Typos galore.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:43 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:34 pm The "squad" is a boogeyman. They don't have that much power. Folks on Fox News would you like to believe otherwise, but they don't. They couldn't do what the Hateful Eight have done...nor would they, I believe.

Remember the infrastructure bill? And remember, their numbers are only going to grow as the US public grows more polarized and extreme in it's political beliefs. Social Media will assure that.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:45 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:40 pm
malchior wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:30 pm ...Anyway, this is where the problem that Hepcat describes kicks in. It'd be tantamount to the Democrats voting for that Speaker and they'd have no control of the caucus. They'd be on a knife's edge fending off attacks. It might sound like a "feel" better to so-called independents but they'd quickly see it presents little functional difference...
The Democrats would have their back on the important stuff until the 2024 election (which I thought was the strategy with McCarthy after the Government debt deal, and I think he thought the same thing, but would never admit it), then we can revise our strategy accordingly.

You mean the McCarthy who instantly broke the deal? That's the problem. Even if they vote Present and restore McCarthy they are back to a guy battling extremists that can't deliver anything and lies to everybody. I don't get how this isn't obvious?!

If anyone else has a better idea of how to get out of this mess, I would love to hear it. Expecting the GOP to put forth someone who's more reasonable than McCarthy is a pipe dream at this point.

I agree but unfortunately McCarthy isn't reasonable either.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:46 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:43 pm
hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:34 pm The "squad" is a boogeyman. They don't have that much power. Folks on Fox News would you like to believe otherwise, but they don't. They couldn't do what the Hateful Eight have done...nor would they, I believe.
Remember the infrastructure bill? And remember, their numbers are only going to grow as the US public grows more polarized and extreme in it's political beliefs. Social Media will assure that.

The US or the GOP? Because I think you're confusing the two as one.

In any case, I also think you're confusing the normal dissent seen in politics with an all out refusal to work with others that you're seeing in the GOP.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:47 pm

Now it's my turn to not understand. Unless the Dems are 100% aligned behind the president on all things they are dysfunctional?

Maybe it's been too long since you had a working democracy, but the rest of us understand that there will be differences of opinion across parties AND within them. That's ok. In fact that's a good thing. It's why everyone is supposed to work together, and why compromises are necessary.

Homogeneous political views are an antithesis to a healthy democracy.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:46 pm In any case, I also think you're confusing the normal dissent seen in politics with an all out refusal to work with others that you're seeing in the GOP.

Thank you.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:48 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:43 pm ...I don't know what to tell you. As long as the Dems keep showing up for their jobs and try to meet their responsibilities, they will always have the moral high ground and thus be the bigger party. Right now. Today. How big do they need to be?

Having the Moral High Ground does not win elections, at least not in the US. And doing nothing for no good reason other than not helping the GOP is not a position that reeks of "Moral High Ground" when it could lead to Government shutdowns, defaults, or stolen elections. Expecting Evil to lose while Good does nothing is not a winning strategy, IMHO.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:49 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:48 pm Having the Moral High Ground does not win elections, at least not in the US.

I completely agree. So why are we arguing in a thread entitled, paraphrased "the Dems need to prove they are the bigger party"?

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:50 pm

I get your frustration, Apollo. But I don't think claiming the Democrats are a big problem because they refuse to get involved with the dysfunctional GOP right now is fair. This whole thing has been years in the making. McConnell helped create the recipe and then Trump added the ingredients. We just have to wait for the poison to work its way out of the system...well, at least enough that we get to a functional ratio of rot. All the Dems would do if they got involved would be to prolong that process even more.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:52 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:50 pm I get your frustration, Apollo. But I don't think claiming the Democrats are a big problem because they refuse to get involved with the dysfunctional GOP right now is fair. This whole thing has been years in the making. McConnell helped create the recipe and then Trump added the ingredients. We just have to wait for the poison to work its way out of the system...well, at least enough that we get to a functional ratio of rot. All the Dems would do if they got involved was prolong that process even more.

Seriously. McConnell literally stole several SCOTUS seats, but why won't the Dems compromise right now???

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:52 pm

So the Democrats are supposed to vote for a Speaker that supported the 1/6 insurrection? That won't say Joe Biden won the election? That wants to defund Medicare and Social Security? That wants to enact a nationwide ban on abortions? Do I have that right? They need to compromise with someone like that for the betterment of society?

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:52 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:46 pm The US or the GOP? Because I think you're confusing the two as one...

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that only the GOP is becoming more extreme in it's political beliefs? If so, I strongly disagree. Otherwise, I misunderstood you and you can clarify if you want.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:53 pm

I definitely think they're growing more extreme. Look at them since Jan 6th. The moderates are even bowing to MAGA at this point.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:55 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:52 pm I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that only the GOP is becoming more extreme in it's political beliefs? If so, I strongly disagree. Otherwise, I misunderstood you and you can clarify if you want.

Holy fucking hell. The Dems aren't even leftists compared to every other democracy out in the world (ok, maybe Poland, but they had been moving away from democracy). Your country is Right Leaning and Hard Right.

Anywho. Carry on. Good luck, America.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:56 pm

Sorry if this post has been mooted; I can't keep up with this thread. Don't you people have to WORK during the day?

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:56 pm For the purposes of this discussion then, are you able to name a viable candidate based on your conditions for GOP Speaker?

I didn't look at them in detail but a snapshot of the candidates I read this morning made me think the old man from MI isn't bad. Ah, here it is:

Jack Bergman of Michigan

Few people outside of his district may be familiar with Bergman. A retired Marine Corps lieutenant general, Bergman, 76, represents Michigan’s Upper Peninsula and the northern half of the Lower Peninsula.

A highly decorated naval aviator, Bergman has earned cachet with many of the mainstream conservatives — several of whom are military veterans themselves — who opposed Jordan’s candidacy and want an experienced leader at the helm. Bergman has presented himself as a temporary option who would work to “steady the ship” and return normalcy to the House.

“What we need right now is a speaker who has experience leading and can put ego aside to work together for the American people,” Bergman said in a statement. “We need a leader who shuns permanent power and recognizes the current crisis of leadership.”

I agree that if the GOP puts up a reasonable adult with no MAGA baggage (MAGAgge?) the Dems should cooperate in getting that person over the line.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:57 pm

Christ, is anyone sane in Washington not born during the Warren G. Harding administration?

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:59 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:52 pm ,,,They need to compromise with someone like that for the betterment of society?

Yes. Compromise is coming to an agreement with those you disagree with to reach a mutually desired goal that both sides can live with, right? Compromise is much better than the alternative as I have stated over and over again.

Again, I'm happy to hear anyone else's idea of how to get out of this mess.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:00 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:56 pm
Jack Bergman of Michigan

Thanks - I had no idea about him. According to Wiki:

Bergman opposes the Affordable Care Act and voted to repeal it in May 2017

Bergman voted against the "Respect for Marriage Act" codifying Loving v. Virginia and Obergefell v. Hodges, recognizing marriages across state lines regardless of "sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals."[

In August 2017, Bergman sided with then-President Donald Trump on barring transgender individuals from the military.

After Joe Biden won the 2020 presidential election and Trump refused to concede, Bergman announced he would oppose the confirmation of the Electoral College's vote in Congress.

In December 2020, Bergman was one of 126 Republican members of the House of Representatives to sign an amicus brief in support of Texas v. Pennsylvania, a lawsuit filed at the United States Supreme Court contesting the results of the 2020 presidential election, in which Biden defeated Trump.

In January 2021, Bergman announced his intention to object to the certification of the Electoral College results.

So he's an election denying bigot. Terrific.

Don't you people have to WORK during the day?

“Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, benevolence, were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:01 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:59 pm Compromise is much better than the alternative as I have stated over and over again.

Just picking one thing then, how do you compromise with someone that believes women don't have the legal right to bodily autonomy?

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:02 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:59 pm
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:52 pm ,,,They need to compromise with someone like that for the betterment of society?
Yes. Compromise is coming to an agreement with those you disagree with to reach a mutually desired goal that both sides can live with, right? Compromise is much better than the alternative as I have stated over and over again.

And what acceptable compromise has the majority party offered?

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:03 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:00 pm
Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:56 pm
Jack Bergman of Michigan
Thanks - I had no idea about him. According to Wiki:

Bergman opposes the Affordable Care Act and voted to repeal it in May 2017

Bergman voted against the "Respect for Marriage Act" codifying Loving v. Virginia and Obergefell v. Hodges, recognizing marriages across state lines regardless of "sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals."[

In August 2017, Bergman sided with then-President Donald Trump on barring transgender individuals from the military.

After Joe Biden won the 2020 presidential election and Trump refused to concede, Bergman announced he would oppose the confirmation of the Electoral College's vote in Congress.

In December 2020, Bergman was one of 126 Republican members of the House of Representatives to sign an amicus brief in support of Texas v. Pennsylvania, a lawsuit filed at the United States Supreme Court contesting the results of the 2020 presidential election, in which Biden defeated Trump.

In January 2021, Bergman announced his intention to object to the certification of the Electoral College results.
So he's an election denying bigot. Terrific.

Wonderful. And he looked to me like the least-worst on this list. Maybe the dude from PA? His entry is so short it doesn't say anything about him.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:05 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:17 pm I never meant to imply that the problem wasn't the GOP's or that the Democrats have some sort of obligation to help the GOP. I'm simply looking at things from a pragmatic point of view.

You did imply it's their obligation though. What does 'it's time to be the adults in the room' mean?

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:17 pm I hate the fact that the Left has become as unwilling to compromise as the RIght nowadays.

They aren't unwilling to compromise. They are being left out of the process completely.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:11 pm

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:15 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:55 pm
Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:52 pm I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that only the GOP is becoming more extreme in it's political beliefs? If so, I strongly disagree. Otherwise, I misunderstood you and you can clarify if you want.
Holy fucking hell. The Dems aren't even leftists compared to every other democracy out in the world (ok, maybe Poland, but they had been moving away from democracy). Your country is Right Leaning and Hard Right.

Anywho. Carry on. Good luck, America.

Over the last 15-20 years the Left in the US has turned against Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression and the concept of a Color-Blind society, they are refusing to allow advanced-placement programs for students, they hate Capitalism, they are increasingly against sending arms to allied nations to help them defend themselves and they have decided that Transgender Rights are so important that many want to make calling someone the wrong pronoun a felony. I could go on, but if you haven't noticed the Left in the US is also growing more radical over the years you're just not paying attention. These ideas were very rare or non-existent on the Left 20 years ago and yet they are fairly commonplace today. And it's not going to stop anytime soon.

Heck, nowadays the Left can't even agree on how to respond to the Israeli-Hamas conflict and who the bad guys really are.

Still waiting to hear a reasonable solution to the crisis in the House.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:21 pm

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:22 pm

Over the last 15-20 years the Left in the US has turned against Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression and the concept of a Color-Blind society, they are refusing to allow advanced-placement programs for students, they hate Capitalism, they are increasingly against sending arms to allied nations to help them defend themselves and they have decided that Transgender Rights are so important that many want to make calling someone the wrong pronoun a felony. I could go on, but if you haven't noticed the Left in the US is also growing more radical over the years you're just not paying attention. These ideas were very rare or non-existent on the Left 20 years ago and yet they are fairly commonplace today. And it's not going to stop anytime soon.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:23 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:01 pm
Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:59 pm Compromise is much better than the alternative as I have stated over and over again.
Just picking one thing then, how do you compromise with someone that believes women don't have the legal right to bodily autonomy?

How do you compromise with someone who thinks everyday speech should conform to certain political beliefs or the person should be arrested? I dunno, but we're talking about electing a speaker not capitulating to every political belief of the GOP. I think something can be worked out. If we don't we get a Hard Right speaker or Endless chaos, and compromise on electing a speaker in order to get a functioning government is something I have no problem tolerating as long as we keep election-deniers out of the speakership.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:24 pm

I think you're interpreting an awareness of age old injustices based on race and/or gender, and the attempts to right those wrongs, as also being wrong. You're railing against "woke" it seems. The alternative is playing out in Florida where they're dropping any mention of racism in our history from text books used in schools, and insinuating that plantation owners actually did a great service to slaves by helping them learn a trade.

I also think some of the things you feel are so wrong are just a natural extension of social media bringing us all together in real time. Whereas the village used to shun you if they caught you beating your donkey in public, now the world sees it. So....don't beat your donkey in public, should be the takeaway. Not "don't look at that guy beating his donkey in public!".

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:26 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:22 pm
Over the last 15-20 years the Left in the US has turned against Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression and the concept of a Color-Blind society, they are refusing to allow advanced-placement programs for students, they hate Capitalism, they are increasingly against sending arms to allied nations to help them defend themselves and they have decided that Transgender Rights are so important that many want to make calling someone the wrong pronoun a felony. I could go on, but if you haven't noticed the Left in the US is also growing more radical over the years you're just not paying attention. These ideas were very rare or non-existent on the Left 20 years ago and yet they are fairly commonplace today. And it's not going to stop anytime soon.

Well, if you're going to start mocking me instead of responding with thoughtful counterpoints, I'm going to stop replying to you.

Again, I'd love to hear a different solution to the problem we face if there indeed is one.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:26 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:23 pm How do you compromise with someone who thinks everyday speech should conform to certain political beliefs or the person should be arrested?

That's an incredibly fringe view that is not remotely a part of the Democrats' platform. Apples to oranges when comparing to a woman's bodily autonomy.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:31 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:15 pm
Over the last 15-20 years the Left in the US has turned against Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression and the concept of a Color-Blind society,

Also, were you under the impression that we were living in a post racist society 2 decades ago?

The more I read your post, the more I see MAGA talking points, which surprises me.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:40 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:24 pm I think you're interpreting an awareness of age old injustices based on race and/or gender, and the attempts to right those wrongs, as also being wrong. You're railing against "woke" it seems. The alternative is playing out in Florida where they're dropping any mention of racism in our history from text books used in schools, and insinuating that plantation owners actually did a great service to slaves by helping them learn a trade.

It's not a choice between one extreme or the other. I believe we can all agree that racism and slavery are wrong and we all did 20 years ago, before Social Media became everyone's primary source for political information.

DeSantis does this crap for the same reason Trump does: Because he knows Democrats and the Mainstream media will criticize him endlessly for these stances, and being criticized by these groups FOR ANY REASON helps Far Right politicians gain more support from their base. I wish Blue State Liberals would pay more attention to this fact and stop feeding the Far Right. The way to beat conservatives is to dismiss them as laughably incompetent, pathetic and ineffective (or hire fake RIght Wing pundits to say they aren't conservative enough

) which is how the GOP (and the anti-Biden Progressives) have made a successful President look like a failure because he falls down steps or says the wrong thing into an open microphone. Getting OUTRAGED over everything they say and/or do is far less effective and actually helps GOP politicians (though it does hurt Liberals).

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:41 pm

So your solution is to never bring up racism and look the other way when we see it because to call it out might embolden Republicans?

No. I feel like your internalizing the very things you seem to hate about MAGA. I implore you to go back and read what you wrote and try to pretend you didn't just write it. Read it as if it was written by someone here who espouses MAGA talking points and see if you don't cringe a little.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:50 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:26 pm
Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:23 pm How do you compromise with someone who thinks everyday speech should conform to certain political beliefs or the person should be arrested?
That's an incredibly fringe view that is not remotely a part of the Democrats' platform. Apples to oranges when comparing to a woman's bodily autonomy.

I have several young (20 something) co-workers who live and work in a Deep Red State who believe this or versions of this, so I think it is going to become more and more common over time. Hopefully I'm totally off-base and this is just a weird reaction to anti-Transgender bias.

However, I am NOT defending ANY of the GOP's stances on just about anything. I'm sure there are some things here or there that I agree with them about (like supporting Israel in this current crisis) but I am not trying to defend the GOP's stances on ANYTHING so please don't try to equate my belief that the Democrats should support a non-election denier for speaker with the idea that I like the GOP's stance on any issue. Just because I find myself more and more in disagreement with the Left doesn't mean I'm warming up to the GOP. The GOP would have to go back in time at least 50 years before I could even consider voting for any of their candidates for anything more meaningful than dog-catcher.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:51 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:59 pm
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 3:52 pm ,,,They need to compromise with someone like that for the betterment of society?
Yes. Compromise is coming to an agreement with those you disagree with to reach a mutually desired goal that both sides can live with, right? Compromise is much better than the alternative as I have stated over and over again.

Again, I'm happy to hear anyone else's idea of how to get out of this mess.

I'm happy to hear your idea of how the Dems can get us out of this mess.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 5:12 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:41 pm So your solution is to never bring up racism and look the other way when we see it because to call it out might embolden Republicans?

No. I feel like your internalizing the very things you seem to hate about MAGA. I implore you to go back and read what you wrote and try to pretend you didn't just write it. Read it as if it was written by someone here who espouses MAGA talking points and see if you don't cringe a little.

Uh, no, I wasn't making any comments about Racism other than abandoning the ideal of a Colorblind Society is a huge mistake that is going to weaken support for social justice measures regarding racial minorities. I do feel that the Left has gone overboard on trying to tie every societal ill to racism and I think it is backfiring. I actually think we are driving minorities away from the Party primarily due to overreaching on social justice policies, believe it or not. This editorial speaks to this a bit if you're interested:

"And while a cartoon version of colorblindness isn’t desirable or even possible, it is possible to recognize skin color but not form judgments on that basis. A person can worry that an emphasis on racial group identity can misleadingly homogenize diverse groups of people, at once underestimating intraracial differences and overemphasizing interracial ones. The Black left-wing scholar Adolph Reed, for example, decried the emphasis on race-based policies. “An obsession with disparities of race has colonized the thinking of left and liberal types,” Reed said in an interview with The New York Times. “There’s this insistence that race and racism are fundamental determinants of all Black people’s existence.” www.nytimes.com/2023/10/05/opinion/ibra ... acism.html

Anyway, I think everyone knows the point I'm making and has stated their opposition to it but I would honestly like to hear someone else's idea on how to resolve this crisis other than doing nothing which I believe will only make things worse. So, before I get dragged farther into the weeds and called a Conservative, a MAGA sympathizer or something worse, I'm going to move on. But thanks to those like Hepcat who engaged my points directly as opposed to those who just tried to dismiss my opinions out of hand since, after all, I dared to disagree with the forum consensus on something.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 5:24 pm

Truth is that right now the only way out of this is for the Republican Party to stop being the ‘smaller’ party.