[Comics] Comics discussion and Whatcha Readin'

[Blackhawk]

We've got quite a few comic book readers here. We have a comics collecting thread, but nothing just for chatting about the medium, asking for/giving suggestions, talking about what we've read, and so forth.

I though it might be handy (especially for those who aren't comics-knowledgeable) to define a few of the terms that might come up, as a lot of them are misused a lot. Nothing below really needs to be read if you don't care about definitions/light history. It's meant for those who are curious, and for reference if someone posts a term people don't know.

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First, formats. Lots of these terms get confused, so I thought it might be useful to clarify what they're actually supposed to mean.

~Comic books are periodicals, and generally open-ended, lasting until they're canceled or the team decides they're finished.

~Limited series comics are periodicals, but with a predetermined number of issues. For instance, Jim Zub's Baldur's Gate comics are limited series - each release is a set of ~6 issues, at which point it's done.

~A trade paperback (TPB) is a collection of comics republished in a single book. To stick with the example, you can get Jim Zub's first three Baldur's Gate limited series in a single book called,"Dungeons & Dragons: Days of Endless Adventure." It's not unusual to see TPBs that bring together a single run (see below) or a single storyline within a comics series. Note that trade paperback is the correct term whether it's a paperback or hardback book, and that bigger versions are usually just called 'collections', with massive collections called an 'omnibus.'

~'Graphic novel' is the term that gets misused the most. It technically refers only to a story with a beginning, middle, and end released in a single volume, and is normally book length. You know, like a novel. If it was released as a bunch of periodical issues, it was not a graphic novel. This term gets misused as a synonym for comic books. All graphic novels are comic books - but most comic books are not graphic novels.

~Manga, which I know nothing about, refers to Japanese (or Japanese-style) comics, and are read right to left.


And a few general terms.


~Run: A run is a consecutive string of issues within a comic that share a trait, such as an author. For example, Kevin Smith's run in Green Arrow.

~Volume: Comics are weird. They are normally numbered (issue 1, issue 2, etc), but every once in a while, for whatever reason (usually a reboot), they'll restart the numbering. All of the comics within a single numbering sequence are a 'volume.' So you see things like "Batman Vol 1 358", which would be Batman, volume 1, issue 358. Just to make things confusing, the publishers sometimes return to an older numbering sequence, and normally call it a new volume - but not always. Batman Vol 1 is Batman 1-713. Volume 2 was 1-139. Volume 3

~[NAME] (Date): Comics are often passed from author to author, and are often rebooted (usually a soft reboot - the storyline, locations, etc change, but the history is still the same.) This sometimes, but not always, corresponds with a Volume change or retitle, but not always. When this happens, it's not uncommon to refer to that particular run by the date it started, ie, Deadpool (1997) vs Deadpool (2008.)

~Variants: Usually used when talking about covers. For important issues (anniversaries, events, etc), it isn't unusual for a company to put out a comic with a half a dozen different covers, often by different guest artists, for collectors.

~One-shot: A single, standalone issue.

~Grade/grading: Rating the quality of a comic book, usually on a 0-10 scale, corresponding to the usual terminology (Mint, Very Fine, Fine+, etc.) There are a couple of companies that do recognized 'certified' grading, the best known being CGC. See 'slab', too.

~Slab/slabbed: A slabbed comic is a comic that is sealed in a tamper-proof case. It serves to protect the comic, but it is also an important part of the grading. An officially graded comic is normally slabbed with a tag inside with the grade. You can open the slab to get the comic out, but it damages the slab in a noticeable manner, and normally invalidates the grade.

~Crossover: when the characters from one comic show up in another comic. When Iron Man shows up in an issue of Black Panther, that's a crossover.

~Event: Usually refers to an occurrence within comics that affect all (or most) of the comics within a universe. . The original Marvel Civil War event, for instance, took place in dozens of different titles. If you read Avengers during that event, you'd see the Avengers going head to head over the problem, and then if you read Spider-Man, you'd see it impacting his life, and Fantastic Four, and X-Men - all of them. DC's most famous even was probably Crisis on Infinite Earths

~Dollar box: a box in a store that has discount comics.

~Ages: The eras of comic book publishing. This refers to both the industry, and to the style of comics that you typically saw. Below is a horrifically oversimplified breakdown.

~~~~~Golden Age - started when Action Comics #1 was published (the introduction of Superman, and the beginning of superheroes as we know them.) It ended in 1953 with Congressional hearings based on a blend of McCarthyism and Tipper Gore-level paranoia ("Won't somebody think of the children?") that led to the formation of the Comics Code Authority - essentially a censorship organization that forced comics to be 'family friendly' - no sympathy for criminals, no corrupt officials, minimal violence, good guys must always win, vampires and zombies were banned, etc. Advertisers wouldn't buy content in them if they didn't have the CCA seal, and comic shops wouldn't sell them.

~~~~~Silver Age - Dominated by the Comics Code Authority (CCA), this was an era when most publishers rebooted their lines, creating the most watered down version of comics, in which superheroes couldn't fight crime unless it was comical in nature (think Adam West), and writers just gave up and did things like having the superheroes settle down with families, writing about their domestic lives. Horror and crime comics disappeared almost entirely. It didn't have a hard end date like the Golden Age did, and just sort of faded into the Bronze Age around 1970. It is notable, however, that this was the era in which Marvel, close to bankruptcy, took a chance on some non-standard ideas and ended up revitalizing the industry with Spider-Man, and soon with teams like the Avengers, X-Men, and Fantastic Four (the one that really kicked it off.) This is why Stan Lee is so well respected - many of those ideas and creations were his (although he doesn't have exclusive credit.)

~~~~~Bronze Age - This was when comics publishers started pushing back against the CCA. They pushed the line on their plots, little by little. The breasts grew, little by little. The violence increased, little by little. The bad guys occasionally won (like when Green Goblin murdered Gwen Stacy in 1973 - the kind of thing that never, ever happened in comics. In 1984, the CCA denied approval for an issue of Swamp Thing. DC published it anyway, and... nothing happened. By '86, DC was publishing comics with no attempt to pass the CCA. The Dark Knight and Watchmen, for instance, changed the direction of comics by flouting the CCA and still becoming incredibly popular (partially because they weren't inane, sanitized stories.)

~~~~~Modern Age - (Terrible name - what are they going to call the next age?) Starting around '86, this was the growth into a mature medium, with stories written for adult audiences, dealing with real issues in realistic ways (like violence actually causing injury.) Nobody really worried much about the CCA anymore, and some amazing stories have been told over the last ~35 years as a result. The CCA had been rendered more or less powerless, until in 2001, they refused approval for a comic from Marvel, and Marvel responded with the middle finger - they simply stopped submitting anything to them. DC and Archie Comics both stopped submitting in 2010, making the CCA an organization with zero participants. Poof. Buh-bye.

[hentzau]

The only comics I read with any regularity is anything in Terry Moore's Strangers in Paradise universe. Man is a terrific storyteller across multiple genres...crime, science fiction, super-hero, horror, comedy...the stories have them all. I've bought the base Strangers in Paradise stores 4 times now. Comic book form, digest form, Omnibus, and new hardcover collections.

Abstract Studios

I've also recently got the Batgirl omnibus from Gail Simone, but haven't made it very far into it.

[Smoove_B]

This thread might be what gives me the push to finish the Doom Patrol series... I'm on #56 of 63 issues, jumping back into the comic as I'm finishing the adaptation on Max. After that, I have Invincible Compendium 1 lined up...

[Blackhawk]

Given that I started the tread, I'd really ought to post something in it. I'm going to do a few retroactive posts for the stuff I've just recently finished.

I finished Invincible just a week or two ago. It's probably my favorite superhero comic series to date, just barely edging out the Marvel Civil War storyline. Invincible the show is fantastic - but the comic is better. Robert Kirkman (yeah, the Walking Dead creator is responsible for this, too) did an amazing job of subverting expectations. He plays off of the tropes, but then he'd take those tropes to the kind of conclusion that such things would lead to, but which mainstream comics won't touch. You see heroes put into impossible scenarios with no good choices. Mainstream comics tend to have their heroes find a better, third option that nobody thought of. Not Kirkman. He makes his characters choose one of the bad options, then makes them pay the price for it. Mainstream comics aren't going to completely change their universe in irreversible ways that prevent going back to how things were. Not Kirkman. As a result, as soon as things start to settle down and fall into a groove, Kirkman shakes them up. And when I say, "shakes them up," I'm not just talking about a surprise plot twist.

He also does a better than normal job of making his characters seem like authentic, rounded individuals who are believable as people first, and superheroes second. They make mistakes, they sometimes make the selfish choice, they come up with great ideas that come from the best intentions, but that cross a line.

Imagine Superman is away from Earth and Lex Luthor takes over the world, killing thousands in the process. But once he's in charge, he improves everyone's lives dramatically. When Superman comes back to Earth, does he oust him because he's a criminal, causing humanity to suffer as a result? Or does he leave the criminal in charge? And how does he live with either choice? That sort of thing is what Invincible was full of.


I'll post some thoughts on some of the other stuff I've read later.

Also recently read:

A mix of Marvel based on a comprehensive reading list (so far that's included Inhumans, Deadpool, Black Panther, Daredevil, plus a little Black Widow, and I've barely scratched the surface.)
Jim Zub's Baldur's Gate/D&D comics.

Up soon on my reading list:

Continuing my exploration of the Marvel universe (I just started the second of two limited series with Black Widow.)
The Boys
Saga
Atomic Robo
Buffy/Angel (the canon post-show seasons - once I'm done rewatching the shows.)

[AWS260]

I am re-reading 52, prompted by the new 52 Pickup podcast, which is going to go through the series issue-by-issue. I've never been interested in a comics podcast before, but it's hosted by Gita Jackson, and I loved her old pop culture podcast Fave This.

I'm about halfway through, and hoo boy, I had forgotten how weird 52 is. Marginal characters (T.O. Morrow!), bizarre situations (Supergirl is a cultist!), and somehow it mostly works.

[Baroquen]

I stick mostly to Marvel/DC stuff these days, but I'm not their target audience so it's pretty hit or miss.

I'm reading Ryan North's Fantastic Four. Ok so far; some different stories, but largely "monster of the week" type stories. No FF world building.

I've found to like Jed MacKay's work. I liked his Black Cat stories. Now I'm reading his Avengers run (though not generally a fan of new villains and that's what he's establishing). Also, unlike decades past, the lineup is straight up stars where nothing will happen to them. It'd be nice to have a few "b-list" heroes without their own books where life could actually happen to them. Despite that, I'm enjoying the story thus far.

I generally hate Doctor Strange, but I've enjoyed MacKay's work on that for awhile now.

Over at DC, I'm reading Titans, the new JSA stuff, the Shazam mini-series (though calling him "The Captain" is dumb). And I'd really like to have a Legion of Superheroes series going again.

[Blackhawk]

I am re-reading 52, prompted by the new 52 Pickup podcast, which is going to go through the series issue-by-issue. I've never been interested in a comics podcast before, but it's hosted by Gita Jackson, and I loved her old pop culture podcast Fave This.

I'm about halfway through, and hoo boy, I had forgotten how weird 52 is. Marginal characters (T.O. Morrow!), bizarre situations (Supergirl is a cultist!), and somehow it mostly works.

Oh, that 52! When you mentioned it the other day, my brain skipped and told me that you were re-reading the New 52.

[Blackhawk]

Ok, time to actually post in this thread.

Short story on my interest in comics. Spoilered if you want to skip it.

Spoiler:

I liked superheroes as a child in the 70s, mostly from cartoons, the Bixby Hulk, and Donner's Superman (I was less interested in the 80s.) From the time I was born until I was in my 40s, I owned exactly three comic books, all GI Joe, bought on a whim.

Somewhere a little over a decade ago I sat down to play Arkham Asylum for the first time after hearing how great it was. I quickly realized that I knew almost none of the characters. Why was there a lizard guy? What's with the calendar references? I backed off of the game, and decided to read some DC first. The Arrowverse started at the same time. I spent most of the next ten years getting to know said universe.

The MCU happened along the way.

Michelle moved in. Me DC, her Marvel. I knew little of Marvel beyond the MCU and other Marvel films (and didn't get many of the reverences in those.)

A few years ago I started doing some mixed Marvel reading, just for fun.

A year or so ago I decided it boost that into high gear. I started doing some reading, starting with the entire ~140 issue Civil War storyline. I then started the list I'm going to post about.

tl;dr - after a decade of learning about the DC universe, I've spent the last year digging into Marvel. After some reading of some specific series, I went with a reading guide, which I'll link here. The premise of the guiede:

Guide Part 1 (1998-2004)
[...] More often than not, when a newcomer to the comic book scene asks for guidance on where to begin with Marvel Comics, they’ll hear “Start with Avengers Disassembled.”

[...] I’m avoiding this approach for one very big reason: the immediate material leading up to Avengers Disassembled is absolutely crucial in developing an understanding of the Marvel Universe that is to come. Plus, there are some of the best Daredevil, Punisher, and Fantastic Four stories of all time within this timeframe (just to name a few).

As a result, what you’ll find below is a spoiler-free reading order guide to the Marvel graphic novels originally published in the early part of the new millennium. A handful will even date back to the late 90’s, but for the most part, this is the Marvel Knights era of my favorite comic publisher, capturing exactly how Marvel built their way to Avengers Disassembled.

Here is my progress, divided into sections to match the source.

Complete
Current tally for this guide: 192 issues

Inhumans (12 issues)
Deadpool Classic/Deadpool vol 1-5 (32 issues)
Black Panther (by Christopher Priest, 1998), vol 1-2 (36 issues)
Deadpool Classic vol 6 (12 issues)
Black Panther (by Christopher Priest, 1998), vol 3-4 (27 issues)
Daredevil 1-15 (15 issues)
Black Widow - two different limited series (6 issues)
Marvel Knights 1-15 (15 issues)
Sentry (10 issues)
Marvel Boy (6 issues)
Doom: The Emperor Returns (3 issues)
Punisher 1-12 (12 issues)
Deadpool Classic Vol 7 (10 issues)
Daredevil: Yellow (6 issues)

Reading

Elektra: Marvel Knights 1-22 (22 issues)

Remaining

Avengers Assemble vol 1 (15 issues)
Avengers Forever 1-12 (12 issues)
Avengers Assemble Vols 2-3 ( 29 issues)
Inhumans/Fantastic Four (8 issues)
Young Inhumans 1-12 (12 issues)
Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers Unleashed 1-4 (4 issues)
Avengers Assemble vol 4 (15 issues)
Captain Marvel 0-35 (36 issues)
Thor: The Death of Odin (8 issues)
Avengers Assemble vol 5 (13 issues)
Infinity Abyss 1-6 (6 issues)
Killraven 1-6 (6 issues)
---------------------------------
Daredevil by Bendis and Maleev Ultimate Collection Vol 1 (19 issues)
Alias 1-28 (28 issues)
Daredevil by Bendis and Maleev Ultimate Collection Vol 2 (25 issues)
X-Force 116-129 (15 issues)
X-Statix 1-26 (26 issues)
X-Men: The Search for Cyclops (4 issues)
New X-Men (42 issues)
Emma Frost 1-18 (18 issues)
Fantastic Four By Mark Waid and Mike Wieringo: Ultimate Collection (29 issues)
Fantastic Four 1234 (5 issues)
---------------------------------
Origin (Wolverine) (1 issue, graphic novel)
Exiles vol 1 (19 issues)
Wolverine: Return of Weapon X (8 issues)
Deadpool Classic vol 8 (4 issues)
Weapon X: The Draft (5 issues)
Weapon X: The Return (47 issues)
Deadpool Classic vol 9-10 (24 issues)
Spider-Man: Revenge of the Goblin (5 issues)
Spider Man's Tangled Web vol 1 (6 issues)
Amazing Spider-Man vol 1-2 (9 issues)
Peter Parker, Spider-Man: Return of the Green Goblin (4 issues)
Amazing Spider-Man vol 3 (5 issues)
Spider-Man: Blue (6 issues)
Spectacular Spider-Man Vol 1 (5 issues)
Amazing Spider-Man vol 4-6 (15 issues)
Spectacular Spider-Man vol 2 (5 issues)
---------------------------------
Runaways 1-18
Hulk/Wolverine: 6 hours (4 issues)
Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure (5 issues)
Exiles vol 2 (18 issues)
Kingpin (7 issues)
Human Torch by Karl Kesel & Skottie Young: The Complete Collection (12 issues)
The Crew (7 issues)
Sentinel vol 1-2 (12 issues)
Captain Marvel vol 1-4 (25 issues)
Marvel Universe: The End (6 issues)
Iron Man: The Best Defense (11 issues)
Hawkeye (8 issues)
1602 (8 issues)
Marvel 1602: Fantastick Four (? issues)
Marvel 1602: New World (5 issues)
Marvel 1602: Spider-Man (5 issues)
Namor 1-12 (12 issues)
She-Hulk 1-10 (10 issues)
The Pulse (5 issues)
Loki (4 issues)
Powerless (5 issues)
Elektra: The Hand (5 issues)
Tomb of Dracula (4 issues)
Exiles Volume 3 (11 issues)
Rogue (6 issues)
Mystique (13 issues) by Brian K. Vaughn
Mystique (11 issues) by Sean McKeever
Silver Surfer (14 issues)
Hulk: Gray (6 issues)
Captain America & The Falcon (4 issues)
Incredible Hulk (7 issues)
Hulk & Thing: Hard Knocks (4 issues)
Identity Disc (5 issues)
Iron Fist (6 issues)
Strange (6 issues)
Marvel Knights: Fantastic 4 vol 1-2 (12 issues)
---------------------------------
Astonishing X-Men (6 issues)
Marvel Knights: Spider-Man (12 issues)
Amazing Spider-Man vol 7 (6 issues)
Spectacular Spider-Man vol 3(5 issues)
Amazing Spider-Man vol 8-9 (9 issues)
Avengers: The Complete Collection by Geoff Johns vol 1-2 (26 issues)

---------------------------------

That's part 1. Part 2 is the Avengers Disassembled even, followed by the events leading up to House of M. And then it just continues

I've got a lot of reading to do.

[Baroquen]

I never really got into Marvel Knights, and wasn't much of a fan of many of the runs on this list. Though I adored the Busiek/Perez Avengers, and Waid's FF run was fun. Was not a fan of Bendis and his Marvel work (though I tended to enjoy his DC stuff that was much less successful). I'm not sure if it was because I never regularly picked up Daredevil, Punisher, Deadpool or those characters. Or if I was already a 'grumpy, old' comics reader by that point. Regardless, none of that is meaningful to anyone but me.

Blackhawk - what did you enjoy most from your list of reads so far?

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk - what did you enjoy most from your list of reads so far?

I was going to go into more detail on that later, but I'd probably put the Christopher Priest Black Panther at the top of the list (good writing, good characters), and I'd put Marvel Boy at the bottom (the story was just... weird, and went nowhere.) Marvel Knights itself wasn't all that great - it was a lot of buildup and then... nothing. But the point of the list was to frame the bigger events with full context. That means that there are going to be some great stories in there, and there are going to be some that aren't so great - but which provide important background for the bigger stories.

And that's part of my goal. I'm not just trying to read the top ten Marvel stories of all time, I'm wanting to get an understanding of the setting and characters and how they all fit together.

[Blackhawk]

Since my last post I finished the 12-issue Punisher (2001) run plus the next slice of Deadpool (1997, issues 46-56.)

Time to actually start commenting on what I've read. For the reading list discussed above, I'll mix what I've just read with my previous reading until I've caught up.

Previously:

The Inhumans (1999, 1 - 12) - This was where the list started. I had already seen the series (and a version of them featured centrally in Agents of Shield), so I knew parts of the premise, but was really surprised at how well this was written. The characters really had a lot of depth, especially Black Bolt, Maximus, and Karnak - I loved all three. What I really enjoyed, though, was the way they presented their society. There were some surprises there, and some genuinely deep elements, touching on some really dark social constructs that really made you question who the 'good guys' were.

Great series, highly recommended.

Just finished:

Punisher (2000, 1 - 12, Garth Ennis's run) - This left me conflicted. 18 year old me would have thought this was the greatest thing ever written. For an 80s-90s action movie audience, he is perfect, and the part of me that still has a soft spot for those things really enjoyed this. It was well-written and interesting, and they did a great job with the story and art.

But the modern me... Well, this me that has watched scores of mass shootings, changing my views on guns. This me has watched the return of open racism (and some white nationalists using the Punisher logo.) This me has watched the rise of the extremist far-right, and has watched them strongarm the rest of the the Republican party, and, along with that, I've watched people on the floor of the Senate carrying flex cuffs - while wearing the Punisher logo. As someone who spent years working side-by-side with cops, giving them backup, receiving backup from them, working with them to deal with various situations, I've now developed a new perspective - a perspective that people that look like me didn't start to see until very recently, and I've watched some of those same cops adopt the Punisher logo, putting it on their cars and gear, as a symbol that is the exact opposite of what they're supposed to stand for.

The thing is, the Punisher should still be relevant. He was originally created in the post-Vietnam 1970s, when crime was out of control and the system couldn't handle it. He's meant as a critique of the system, not as an alternative to it. He's absolutely presented as a broken, deeply damaged, and mentally ill person who wants to kill anyone who represents what he hates - regardless of the circumstances. Three bad guys. Frank kills two. Bad guy three surrenders and drops his weapon? Frank executes him on the spot. He is not, at any point in the stuff I've read with him, presented as a hero. He's Dexter Morgan crossed with Jack Bauer. And he's completely aware of that. He agrees with the heroes who actively try to stop him.

There is a ton of potential for the character as a critique of modern society, but it's been taken so far in the other direction that it's honestly tainted at this point. Marvel knows this.

Spoiler:

In the last few years, they rounded out his story by having him change his logo, go full villain, get captured, finally break. The end result was that he's been comic-killed/exiled to a sort of Limbo, and the character has been officially retired.

When he comes up again, I'll keep reading him, but I'll do it with the original intent of the character - (The Punisher is what's wrong. He's everything we need to fix, everything we need to prevent. He represents the anger of those who are helpless in the face of a broken, corrupt system, and is a call for change, not a call for violence.)

[Punisher]

As you might guess. I'm a fan of the comic and the movies.
I have a ton of Punisher t-shirts. Multiple versions of the skull.
I've mostly stopped wearing them, especially the skull because of the impression they now give in general. I only wear them to cons for the most part or around the house.
I do m8ss them but dont want to give people the qring impression especially when they m8ght not even know whete it cones from.

[AWS260]

I just finished re-reading Kieron Gillen's run on Young Avengers, which is about a decade old now. What a blast.

[AWS260]

Indie publisher Shortbox Comics is getting out of the print biz (they will continue to host a virtual comics fair for indie creators).

This makes me sad. I don't keep up with the comics scene enough to know what the hot indie titles are, but I could always count on Shortbox's periodic collections to deliver a package of delightful, gorgeously produced books to my door. The print quality was really through the roof.

Anyway, there are still a few titles left on their webshop if anyone's interested. Of those, Beneath the Dead Oak Tree, Boogsy, and Homonculus are favorites of mine.

[Max Peck]

On a whim, I decided to try reading Ms Marvel Vol 1 on my phone using the Kindle app, and it turns out that the app works far better than I expected. It has a feature called "Guided View" that makes it easy to read panel by panel instead of page by page just by swiping like you'd do to move to the next page. In large panels it even moves around to consecutive text/dialog so that you don't need to manually zoom in to read the text. It's very intuitive and works really well.

[Blackhawk]

Yeah, I've used that functionality, too. It really does work well. The only time it doesn't is with larger spreads, as it jumps from section to section, and you can't always get a clear understanding of the overall action.