Octopus Overlords

Seems to be the circulating news this morning:

Speed Daily exclusively learned that the American toy company Hasbro is seeking to sell its well-known IP “Dungeons & Dragons” (referred to as “DND” below), and Tencent is one of the potential buyers.

At present, the negotiations are still in the early stages and both parties have not yet reached an agreement on the details of the transaction.

According to informed sources, the financial crisis faced by Hasbro is the main reason for considering the sale of DND, and Tencent Investment’s Larian Studios is acting as an intermediary in this transaction. Larian Studios’ game “Baldur’s Gate 3” won the TGA Game of the Year award in 2023 and is considered one of the most successful adaptations of DND. As a result, it was seen as a potential target buyer by Hasbro. However, due to insufficient funds, Larian ultimately introduced this deal to shareholder Tencent.

I'm surprised Larian couldn't afford it. I would have thought their coffers full at this point. But I have no idea what a lucrative IP like D&D could fetch, I guess.

Getting D&D away from Hasbro is a win.

Tencent getting D&D, not so much.

They'll start inserting data collection tools into the dice for the Chinese government. I don't want them knowing when Americans roll a natural 20!

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 1:09 pm I'm surprised Larian couldn't afford it. I would have thought their coffers full at this point. But I have no idea what a lucrative IP like D&D could fetch, I guess.

Keep in mind that the brand has just stumbled into a potential film universe, and that they've got a TV series on the way. Thanks to Critical Role, followed by Stranger Things, followed by COVID keeping people at home, they're still riding a huge wave.

And at the same time, Hasbro just laid off a bunch of Wizards of the Coast employees.

Hasbro helped make D&D big, but Hasbro is also one insanely greedy company, and they've made quite a few calls that have been questionable (like they're still the only pen-and-paper RPG I know of that refuses to release .pdf versions of any of their products in order to force people onto their subscription service.

I do not like this. Not that I love Hasbro, but I don't think a D&D being owned by a global Chinese media company is going to be the solution we want.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:50 pm Hasbro helped make D&D big, but Hasbro is also one insanely greedy company, and they've made quite a few calls that have been questionable (like they're still the only pen-and-paper RPG I know of that refuses to release .pdf versions of any of their products in order to force people onto their subscription service.

That isn't strictly true. Yes, you can't get PDFs of D&D books, but you get access to the content via D&D Beyond without needing to pay for a subscription.

I think there's a belief that D&D is an open source game for many. I get that. It started off as a community driven game, I guess. But it hasn't been such for a really long time, I imagine.

But then again, I haven't played it in years, so I don't know the entire backstory...

...nor do I care to.

baelthazar wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:02 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:50 pm Hasbro helped make D&D big, but Hasbro is also one insanely greedy company, and they've made quite a few calls that have been questionable (like they're still the only pen-and-paper RPG I know of that refuses to release .pdf versions of any of their products in order to force people onto their subscription service.

That isn't strictly true. Yes, you can't get PDFs of D&D books, but you get access to the content via D&D Beyond without needing to pay for a subscription.

Define 'the content.' From what I've seen, you can access the mechanics (stats, character builder) and the rules covered by the SRD (a small subset of the full system), but that's a far cry from having a pdf. It also relies on accepting the limitations of the app, online access, and continued support. It's like a free demo for a video game.

Meanwhile, the pdfs I bought for Pathfinder or Savage Worlds give me 100% of the content along with the context, don't require internet access, can be printed, and will continue to function should the company decide they're not profitable anymore.

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:06 pm I think there's a belief that D&D is an open source game for many. I get that. It started off as a community driven game, I guess. But it hasn't been such for a really long time, I imagine.

I'm not sure what you mean. There's far more community-made content for the system than Wizards of the Coast ever published, by orders of magnitude.

Or were you suggesting that I was complaining because it wasn't free? If so, wrong tree. I was talking about commercially available alternatives to physical books, like other RPG companies normally offer.

Hasbro is actively avoiding the norms of the hobby in order to push people toward subscriptions. Remember, this is the same company that just made headlines by rewriting their SRD contract to try to take a cut of third-party content, then had to walk it back because of the shitstorm.

From a quick glance, it seems you can get the digital copies alongside the physical copies.

note: it's not the pdf and has to be used online, it seems. But that's not a subscription based digital copy, from what I'm reading. i.e. buy it once and it's yours. One could argue that you're also getting updates via this option.

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:21 pm From a quick glance, it seems you can get the digital copies alongside the physical copies.

Nope, you get a copy for D&D Beyond, their proprietary app, not a regular digital copy.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:24 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:21 pm From a quick glance, it seems you can get the digital copies alongside the physical copies.

Nope, you get a copy for D&D Beyond, their proprietary app, not a regular digital copy.

But it's not subscription based, which is what you were saying earlier.

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:21 pm note: it's not the pdf and has to be used online, it seems. But that's not a subscription based digital copy, from what I'm reading. i.e. buy it once and it's yours. One could argue that you're also getting updates via this option.

Yeah, and that's been true all along. They've always sold digital copies of their books via their app. That's the problem. For one thing, it requires online access. For another, you're stuck only using their app. And even if you're OK with that, it still relies on Hasbro, a company that's almost as bad as Google when it comes to pulling the plug on services, for its longevity.

Also, we're leapfrogging on the comments - I called you out on something while you were editing that same thing. Sorry 'bout that.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:28 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:21 pm note: it's not the pdf and has to be used online, it seems. But that's not a subscription based digital copy, from what I'm reading. i.e. buy it once and it's yours. One could argue that you're also getting updates via this option.

Yeah, and that's been true all along. They've always sold digital copies of their books via their app.

Your original statement made me think you could ONLY get digital versions of the rules via a subscription. That's what I was responding to.

Coming from the world of tabletop miniatures where they routinely offer this kind of thing, it's not that big of a deal to me, I guess. The added luxury of getting updates in a timely fashion being the draw for me.

I think it's complicated overall - D&D is in a bit of a transition. Not just the rule issues (and the OGL mistake they made last year) but trying to stay relevant to the next generation of "pen and paper" gamers. They had such a huge boost from the pandemic and Stranger Things and there's still a ton of people that apparently play D&D in some form, but there's also a growing subset of the community that is or has moved on to other gaming licenses in both paper and digital formats.

I think for a long time D&D was a product where people jumped in and that's what they stuck with forever. However, with so many options now (way beyond Pathfinder, which I more or less consider D&D-adjacent) I think the IP needs to come to terms with how it could look for the next decade+ if they don't make changes - which is why they're really leaning into that digital platform which may or may not work out for them...

Either way, I can understand why Hasbro is looking to unload them - they're probably not going to retain value unless Hasbro re-invests in the IP and tries to grow the brand; I don't get the impression they're interested in that.

Bunnies and Burrows ruined me for all role playing games.

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:31 pm Coming from the world of tabletop miniatures where they routinely offer this kind of thing, it's not that big of a deal to me, I guess.

I'm also from that world. With the possible exception of Warhammer, which companies offer their digital products in a proprietary format?

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:02 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:31 pm Coming from the world of tabletop miniatures where they routinely offer this kind of thing, it's not that big of a deal to me, I guess.

I'm also from that world. With the possible exception of Warhammer, which companies offer their digital products in a proprietary format?

Privateer Press (Warmachine/Hordes) and Wyrd (Malifaux). They both have apps that you can subscribe to (or outright purchase faction packs or whatever) that update regularly with rule changes for figures. In my eyes, it's essentially the same model as D&D Beyond.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:53 pm I think it's complicated overall - D&D is in a bit of a transition. Not just the rule issues (and the OGL mistake they made last year) but trying to stay relevant to the next generation of "pen and paper" gamers. They had such a huge boost from the pandemic and Stranger Things and there's still a ton of people that apparently play D&D in some form, but there's also a growing subset of the community that is or has moved on to other gaming licenses in both paper and digital formats.

I think for a long time D&D was a product where people jumped in and that's what they stuck with forever. However, with so many options now (way beyond Pathfinder, which I more or less consider D&D-adjacent) I think the IP needs to come to terms with how it could look for the next decade+ if they don't make changes - which is why they're really leaning into that digital platform which may or may not work out for them...

Either way, I can understand why Hasbro is looking to unload them - they're probably not going to retain value unless Hasbro re-invests in the IP and tries to grow the brand; I don't get the impression they're interested in that.

Even in the 80s, D&D was only one of scores, although they had a much larger market share then. The transition you mentioned probably started with 4th Edition, when they took the game in a direction that people hated, and ended up losing the first place slot in the market for the first time in their history.

5e was a significant attempt to modernize and stay relevant in an era that had moved to lighter and lighter rules with more focus on narrative. And they succeeded by straddling the line between what D&D was and the direction RPGs have gone. They then repeated the 4e mistake a couple of times. They drove a lot of people away when they made their only digital option a subscription service, and they drove even more away with their "SRD 2.0" stunt a year or two ago. They're still the #1 player in the market, but they market has changed, and the way they're wanting to take things doesn't quite match the direction the market wants to go.

In the end, WotC's core product is still Magic the Gathering. At least if they can rein in their urge to have customers intimidated by hired muscle for buying the wrong cards.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:11 pm They drove a lot of people away when they made their only digital option a subscription service

So for a while, the only way you could get the rules online/digitally was to pay for a subscription to D&D Beyond? That does suck. Was that only recently changed with the physical/digital sets I linked to above or something?

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:14 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:11 pm They drove a lot of people away when they made their only digital option a subscription service

So for a while, the only way you could get the rules online was to pay for a subscription to D&D Beyond? That does suck. Was that only recently changed with the physical/digital sets I linked to above or something?

Blackhawk, you might be confused. I have used D&D Beyond since the beginning and buying their book online has given you access to the content via their web service without a D&D Beyond subscription. Maybe in the initial stages? But I don't believe so.

What you might be talking about was their PROPOSED plan to make all the books for D&D One only available via subscription service. This has not yet been implemented and the backlash from the community was tremendous. In fact, a lot of groups responded to that potential change by creating D&D - like rulesets, like the MCDM RPG and Tales of the Valiant.

Some extra context - I don't think Hasbro is "selling" D&D to Tencent. They are selling the licensing rights to the IP for electronic content:

A Tencent IEG (Interactive Entertainment Group) insider revealed that Tencent, represented by its overseas business department IEG Global, is in negotiations with the aim of acquiring a series of rights including the adaptation rights for electronic games such as DND.

According to the aforementioned IEG insiders, Tencent currently holds the game adaptation rights for many top-tier IPs. However, due to the licensing model mostly not being a one-time buyout, Tencent not only needs to bear high copyright fees and long-term revenue sharing but also frequently faces restrictions from its partners in terms of development and operation. Previously, the mobile game adaptation of “NieR” developed by Tencent TiMi Studio was unable to be launched even until the project was cancelled.

That's what some are saying. I'll see if I can find it, but other places are reporting Tencent doesn't want to license IP; they want the entire IP.

baelthazar wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:35 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:14 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:11 pm They drove a lot of people away when they made their only digital option a subscription service

So for a while, the only way you could get the rules online was to pay for a subscription to D&D Beyond? That does suck. Was that only recently changed with the physical/digital sets I linked to above or something?

Blackhawk, you might be confused. I have used D&D Beyond since the beginning and buying their book online has given you access to the content via their web service without a D&D Beyond subscription. Maybe in the initial stages? But I don't believe so.

No, I was jumping back and forth between several things in a rush and got my words crossed. I meant to say something more like 'proprietary online app and format.' I'm aware that you get to keep access to the content once you've purchased it. And no, I'm not backtracking - I honestly knew that. Me picking the wrong words is something I've posted about in the medical thread.

That's my problem in a nutshell: Practically every other game in the industry handles digital with simple, universal file formats. WotC/Hasbro chose to lock it all down in order to force people onto their service, hoping to get more money from them. And as with all online-only products, there is no owner control, and no guarantee of availability. In other words, it's like Steam - except that I trust Steam far more than I trust Hasbro, who have a reputation for killing off anything they don't deem profitable enough.

At the same time, my Savage Worlds, Pathfinder, Fate, Dungeon World, Eclipse, Making History, Star Trek (and more) books will be available for as long as there is a way to read .pdf files, even if the company went out of business or got out of the RPG business decades before. I can print them, print pages or tables, edit them to change or add text, link to them in OneNote - you name it. I can (and do) also keep everything I own for those games in folders that equate to a substantial library, and can back them up.

A lot of people are fine with that. More power to 'em. But a lot are not. Personally, I don't want any non-video game I invest that much time and money in to be tied to the willingness of a third party to allow me to keep playing. I want to own tabletop books, not lease them.

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:05 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:02 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:31 pm Coming from the world of tabletop miniatures where they routinely offer this kind of thing, it's not that big of a deal to me, I guess.

I'm also from that world. With the possible exception of Warhammer, which companies offer their digital products in a proprietary format?

Privateer Press (Warmachine/Hordes) and Wyrd (Malifaux). They both have apps that you can subscribe to (or outright purchase faction packs or whatever) that update regularly with rule changes for figures. In my eyes, it's essentially the same model as D&D Beyond.

I just looked - all three seem to have full .pdf downloads with no strings attached. They may have an app with updated info, but it's not the only way to access their rules digitally. In fact, with Malifaux, the .pdf rules are completely free. I now have a copy sitting on my desktop. That's not comparable to WotC's model at all.

Hmmm…I thought you could only get the cards via physical or digital through buying them on the mobile apps at one point. It has been a while since I looked though.

Edit: looks like they (both Privateer Press and Wyrd) made that change after I stopped playing a few years ago. I still have the email receipts from both of their mobile apps for purchasing stat cards at the time. And I know the rules weren't available back then for both online as I always wanted them in pdf format but couldn't get them for the longest time. So yeah, it was similar back when I played, but they've since gone more open source...which is great as I just grabbed the latest stat cards for some figures I own!

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:24 am
No, I was jumping back and forth between several things in a rush and got my words crossed. I meant to say something more like 'proprietary online app and format.' I'm aware that you get to keep access to the content once you've purchased it. And no, I'm not backtracking - I honestly knew that. Me picking the wrong words is something I've posted about in the medical thread.

So everyone here is right, no one is wrong, and we all lived happily ever after.

Edit2: Neat, the Malifaux crew builder is completely free and includes all the cards. Since BH has the rules, he has no excuse NOT to try this fantastic game. Just get yourself a deck of standard playing cards and use some proxies from your extensive collection of minis.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:26 pm Getting D&D away from Hasbro is a win.

Tencent getting D&D, not so much.

My thoughts exactly. It might be different if DND was an actual company and Tencent was just going to be a parent. *might* be different. But since that's not the case, and I've seen how Tencent runs their DND MMO, I'm not optimistic.

Oh well, it was a good run.

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:06 pm I think there's a belief that D&D is an open source game for many. I get that. It started off as a community driven game, I guess. But it hasn't been such for a really long time, I imagine.

But then again, I haven't played it in years, so I don't know the entire backstory...

...nor do I care to.

Actually, it was far more proprietary in the 80's than it has been for the last 2 editions.

DND OGL wrote: The Systems Reference Document (SRD) contains guidelines for publishing content under the Open-Gaming License (OGL) or Creative Commons. The Dungeon Masters Guild also provides self-publishing opportunities for individuals and groups.

Use of D&D content in streaming, fan art, cosplay, and other fan content is not related to the SRD, OGL, or Creative Commons, but is permitted as described in Wizards’ Fan Content Policy.

It's why Paizo and Pathfinder exist, for one.

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 8:49 am Since BH has the rules, he has no excuse NOT to try this fantastic game.

I've been watching Malifaux out of the corner of my eye for years. The only excuse is that it's a two-player game. I can do solo, and I can do three player. Two player isn't a thing.

You have kids. Force them into a life of gaming with you!

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:18 pm You have kids. Force them into a life of gaming with you!

One does, but only in the three person situation every couple of weeks. I have a number of games on my shelf that I bought years ago when I had a regular one-on-one gaming friend - including several war/skirmish games - that I've never been able to play, as he moved out of the area right after.

For now I'll just have to settle for Rangers of the Shadow Deep.

Wizards of the Coast has officially denied the report:

In a statement provided to VGC, it said: “We regularly talk to Tencent and enjoy multiple partnerships with them across a number of our IPs. We don’t make a habit of commenting on internet rumors, but to be clear: we are not looking to sell our D&D IP.

“We will keep talking to partners about how we bring the best digital experiences to our fans. We won’t comment any further on speculation or rumors about potential M&A or licensing deals.”

I will put this here since it helped me understand Larian's decision.