MS craters variety of Bethesda studios

[JCC]

Sucks...

https://www.eurogamer.net/xbox-shuts-sl ... developers

[Smoove_B]

But I've been repeatedly assured over the last 20+ years they're very committed to gaming, especially on PC.

[El Guapo]

If it helps, their head of game studios is named Matt Booty.

[JCC]

Any dwindling hope I may have had for a Dishonored 3 just got crushed today.

No more Thief and Dishonored makes me very sad.

[Max Peck]

Any dwindling hope I may have had for a Dishonored 3 just got crushed today.

No more Thief and Dishonored makes me very sad.

The studio that has been shut down was Arkane Austin. Dishonored was developed by Arkane Lyon.

[Daehawk]

But I've been repeatedly assured over the last 20+ years they're very committed to gaming, especially on PC.

Ive known this as a lie since then. They have never once followed that. It never surprises me when they shut a dev down. Im only surprised a when a dev volunteerly signs up with them. Ive always said they were the dev killer. Ive never thought they truly gave a crap about PC gaming even in the days when it became so popular. Could never understand them.

EA is another dev killer. Always saddens me to see a company I like sell out to them cause I know they'll be gone very soon. I think my hate of EA started with Westwood Studios or Perhaps Origin.

[waitingtoconnect]

Shows how toothless the regulators are. Usually they get a promise from M$ or the like they they won’t do this. Then they do there is a small fine or slap on the wrist then nothing.

For me it’s not just that the dev goes - often the IP gets scorched or shelved and we never see it again. Command and conquer for example.

Most of the sacking activity is due to AI from my contacts still in the industry . Execs believe they can use it to do most low level tasks.

[Daehawk]

Ive been wondering why all the layoffs. I thought gaming was as high and important as ever. I mean billion dollar industry. I saw where someone is blaming the covid hirings. They puffed up to handle all the new gaming demands with everyone home but are now firing the excess. I dont buy it.

[Blackhawk]

Any dwindling hope I may have had for a Dishonored 3 just got crushed today.

No more Thief and Dishonored makes me very sad.

The studio that has been shut down was Arkane Austin. Dishonored was developed by Arkane Lyon.

Dishonored was developed by Arkane Austin. Dishonored 2 was Lyon. Austin was the original Arkane, responsible for Dishonored, Arx Fatalis, Dark Messiah of M&Ms, and Prey (this was the one I was most hoping to see come back, even though I know it was hopeless.)

However, everything Arkane is still owned by Microsoft. Dishonored 3 is still a possibility.

[Blackhawk]

But I've been repeatedly assured over the last 20+ years they're very committed to gaming, especially on PC.

Ive known this as a lie since then.

It's the truth - they absolutely are dedicated to PC gaming.

That doesn't mean that they're dedicated to PC gaming culture, or to what makes PC gaming unique. They're absolutely dedicated to what makes them the most money in the world of PC gaming.

[Blackhawk]

Ive been wondering why all the layoffs. I thought gaming was as high and important as ever. I mean billion dollar industry. I saw where someone is blaming the covid hirings. They puffed up to handle all the new gaming demands with everyone home but are now firing the excess. I dont buy it.

It's true. Most entertainment industries did the same thing, and it's part of the reason that streaming services started imploding a while back. There was simply more being made than people were consuming, so those studios that didn't have recent or near-future money makers were the first targets.

Part of the reason for the layoffs is the same reason as in all of the other industries right now: We came from a period where companies (gaming and otherwise) were taking risks and rolling the dice. They've generally decided that continuing that way is extremely dangerous in the current world, so they're backing off. The economy isn't seen as safe, and companies are battening down the hatches in case it goes sideways. Some suggest that entertainment industries are close to panicking in some cases.

Part of the reason (especially in this case) is that they were just acquired. The boss left, and a new boss took over, and he has different ideas on how to run a company. Plus, two companies merged and, after an extensive inventory, decided that they had too much overlap - too many cases of the same thing existing multiple times (like suddenly having too many studios that work on a particular type of game, so they get rid of the extras.)

Part of the reason is to cut expenses to counteract the cost of buying them out.

Part of the reason is that some of the assets that they're most interested in from their purchase is the IPs, not the companies. Microsoft bought Dishonored, and Microsoft still has Dishonored, to be used in the manner they find most appropriate.

And yes, AI is, in some cases, resulting in layoffs - but you don't close the entire studio to replace the texture artists with AI. You cut manpower.

The entire economy is in the midst of chaos right now, it's changing, nobody is comfortable with what's going to happen in November in regards to business and the economy, and all sorts of other things. As with most things, oversimplifying by picking one easy target and blaming everything on it is naive. There are a huge number of factors in play, a huge number of causes.

What was the cause of WWII? A grenade tossed at an archduke? A bigoted house painter? Try centuries of buildup combined with an intricate series of treaties and alliances combined with culture combined with human nature, and then add several books worth of other factors.

Complex events have complex causes.

[Daehawk]

I cant count the times an amazing looking game or setting of a game was something i was really waiting for only to have it canned. Can think of a couple Star Wars games off the top of my head and an old MMO or two.

[Blackhawk]

That's all of us. Sometimes it's beyond their control (losing a license, although that's rare), other times they're canceled because it becomes obvious that they product they're making is going to suck. Other times it's because they planned badly and end up going over budget, and it will take so much more money to make it viable that it's a better investment to just cancel it.

With entertainment companies, it's important to remember what their function is. Their goal is not to entertain us. They're there to make money by providing profitable entertainment. Game companies aren't there to make the games that we wish they'd make, or to make games the way we want them. They're there to make money. It's their first, second, and third priority. If canceling the game we want, turning the franchise we love into something we like less (I'm looking at you, Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon), or changing features we were looking forward to, means that they make more money from the biggest chunk of the audience, that's what they're going to do. They can have our $70, or they piss us off, lose our money, but gain five other peoples' $70.

[Montag]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek ... ulcan_Fury

[waitingtoconnect]

Ive been wondering why all the layoffs. I thought gaming was as high and important as ever. I mean billion dollar industry. I saw where someone is blaming the covid hirings. They puffed up to handle all the new gaming demands with everyone home but are now firing the excess. I dont buy it.

And yes, AI is, in some cases, resulting in layoffs - but you don't close the entire studio to replace the texture artists with AI. You cut manpower.

The entire economy is in the midst of chaos right now, it's changing, nobody is comfortable with what's going to happen in November in regards to business and the economy, and all sorts of other things. As with most things, oversimplifying by picking one easy target and blaming everything on it is naive. There are a huge number of factors in play, a huge number of causes.


Complex events have complex causes.

True but AI is a big reason.

In its latest earnings report, EA CEO Andrew Wilson told investors that there was “a real hunger” among developers to get around generative AI as a development tool. Wilson went on to say that he believed more than half of EA’s current dev processes could be “positively impacted” by the introduction of generative AI, which understandably created some consternation among the dev community. Definitely feels like more cuts at EA are incoming.

[Blackhawk]

I'm not sure. I don't think most of those tools are in place yet (beyond making concept art), and they're not going to fire dev teams until the replacement arrives. They're likely also waiting for a guinea pig. Thus far the few games coming out from small studios using AI have faced incredible backlash. There's also the likelihood of lawsuits, and there's a possibility of limiting legislation.

I can't see the larger publishers becoming too reliant on AI until those things have been worked through. It's just not a good large scale business decision yet.

And I don't think it's as much of a factor in this particular thread. If you want to replace half of your team with AI, you don't start by shutting down the entire studio.

A factor? Sure. Something that people in the industry should worry about? Absolutely. But I don't think it's a major one. Yet.

[Zarathud]

Can you imagine testing some AI written code? No one will know how to fix it because no one wrote it.

[Blackhawk]

AI is definitely a concern for the future.

[Carpet_pissr]

Can you imagine testing some AI written code? No one will know how to fix it because no one wrote it.

AI wrote it, let AI fix it.

If there’s money to be made by doing so, AI’s will be classified as people by the SC soon and you won’t be able to call the ‘no one’.

[hepcat]

If it helps, their head of game studios is named Matt Booty.

It’s Boo-tay.

[Daehawk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek ... ulcan_Fury

Im still waiting on this lol. I remember seeing it in magazines and the trailer. If they could have pulled it off it would have looked amazing for the times.

[TheMix]

If it helps, their head of game studios is named Matt Booty.

It’s Boo-tay.

[Rumpy]

If there was one Arkane Studio that would have made better sense to close, it would have been Arkane Lyon. Arkane Austin has a much longer longer history of IPs that would have made sense for them to keep developing, and anything the Lyon branch would have been working on could just have easily been transferred to Austin, as it's been said the two studios have a history of working on each other's projects anyway.

But wow, what a whammy. This looks terrible right on the heels of them buying out Activision/Blizzard. I wonder how they must be feeling after this.

Thing is, I was already feeling crushed when Microsoft bought Zenimax and Obsidian, etc. And now word has surfaced that Microsoft were feeling like they didn't have enough resources, being stretched too thin. Well, wtf, why'd you buy them then? It seems like a lot of business trends lately are to just buy in the hopes of magically fixing mistakes, as in the streaming services. In this case, it was hopes in the studios and their IPs could inject some newfound hope into XBox. I was looking forward to what a studio like Arkane would be able to do under Microsoft and its resources, but now it's looking like it won't be possible. And it's a huge waste of possibility and talent. If Microsoft were hoping to achieve something with their purchases, then I hope they have a better plan on figuring things out going forward. I don't think Arkane lasted even 5 years under Microsoft.

And closing Tango Gameworks, makers of Hi-Fi Rush which was met with critical praise and exceeding all expectations was a shortsighted move. This signals that even if you're financially successful and done everything right in the eyes of a parent company, that you're still liable to be cut, and I can't even imagine how frustrated these developers must feel. Your best is not good enough anymore, it seems.

[Daehawk]

If it helps, their head of game studios is named Matt Booty.

It’s Boo-tay.

When I first watched that movie I hadn't seen his other more famous ones to come yet. But seeing that GIF now its easy to see its him.

[Blackhawk]

Arkane hasn't had a top-selling game in 12 years, concluding with the mess that was Redfall. Prey was well-loved, but didn't sell as well as they were hoping, and fell of the charts fast. And in the end, that's got to be what Microsoft has been looking at: Income potential.

As to why they're doing what they are, the likely bought out Zenimax for the IPs and a couple of specific companies (Bethesda, Id.) They likely didn't need or want the 'extra' studios that went with the package. It's sort of like what we used to do in the trading forum with bundles - we'd buy an eight-game bundle that had two or three games we wanted, then give the rest away to other people. Those two or three games made the purchase worthwhile, and the rest was just baggage.

[Rumpy]

Well, they're surely not going to get any future income potential from them now. Still feel like it's incredibly short-sighted of them, considering the complaints of Microsoft not diversifying itself enough in terms of exclusives. That would usually mean letting the studios they've bought to do what they do best to create a portfolio, which doesn't feel like they even had a chance to do under them.

And there's mixed-messaging from within XBox itself. One says they want to focus on high-impact games, then another says they want to focus on smaller games, of which Hi-Fi Rush was perfectly positioned, and yet was closed.

Microsoft has a history of repeating itself and not learning from its mistakes. It's what lead them to this fiasco in the first place, of wanting to purchase these studios, so that they could build out. But how can they build out when stuff like this happens? It starts to feel like they distrust their studios. Spencer even has a great quote referring to Lionhead and what they could learn from the closure in order to avoid those same mistakes that led to its closure: Spencer said, “You acquire a studio for what they’re great at now, and your job is to help them accelerate how they do what they do. Not them accelerate what you do.” And yet, here we are again.

[Max Peck]

If there was one Arkane Studio that would have made better sense to close, it would have been Arkane Lyon. Arkane Austin has a much longer longer history of IPs that would have made sense for them to keep developing, and anything the Lyon branch would have been working on could just have easily been transferred to Austin, as it's been said the two studios have a history of working on each other's projects anyway.

One thing to keep in mind is that the studio that was closed was no longer the studio that you so fondly remember. According to a post-mortem of Redfall written by Jason Schreier last year, about 70% of the developers who worked on Prey had left by the time Redfall was released. Microsoft still holds the IP, but the institutional knowledge within the studio was gone long before they shut the doors.

Since its founding in 1999, Arkane had become known for games called “immersive sims,” single-player experiences in which players strive to overcome obstacles in multiple ways, from combat to stealth maneuvers. Yet from the start, Redfall was pitched to staff as a “multiplayer Arkane game,” which some team members said they found confusing. Whether the sort of gameplay that the studio specialized in would be technically possible in a multiplayer environment was an open question.

Developers under Smith and Bare said the two leads were outwardly excited but as the project progressed failed to provide clear direction. Staff members said that, over time, they grew frustrated with management’s frequently shifting references to other games, such as Far Cry and Borderlands, that left each department with varying ideas of what exactly they were making. Throughout the development, the fundamental tension between single-player and multiplayer design remained unresolved. Smith and Bare did not respond to requests for comment.

Arkane was also perpetually understaffed, said people familiar with its production. The studio’s Austin office employed less than 100 people— sufficient for a relatively small, single-player game like Prey but not enough to compete with multiplayer behemoths like Fortnite and Destiny, which are developed by teams of hundreds. Even additional support from ZeniMax’s Wisconsin-based Roundhouse Studios and other outsourcing houses couldn’t fill the gaps, they say.

Morale at Arkane suffered. Veteran workers who weren’t interested in developing a multiplayer game left in droves. By the end of Redfall’s development, roughly 70% of the Austin staff who had worked on Prey would no longer be at the company, according to people familiar as well as a Bloomberg analysis of LinkedIn and Prey’s credits.

Filling vacancies became a challenge. Within the industry, ZeniMax had a reputation for paying lower than average salaries, and convincing some progressive or moderate video game developers to move to Texas could be difficult due to the state’s conservative social policies. Since Redfall wasn’t yet announced, the studio couldn’t describe its details to prospective employees — a predicament that exacerbated the staffing issues, sources familiar with the process said. Arkane wanted to hire recruits with experience on multiplayer shooters, but the people who applied were by and large looking to work on single-player immersive sims.

[Blackhawk]

I've heard the same. It's like taking a studio that makes flight simulators and having them make League of Legends clone. It's going to be a mess, and the flight sim developers are likely to look for other options.

[Daehawk]

Redfall, I believe, had a big patch or DLC coming in a couple months too.

[Blackhawk]

Redfall, I believe, had a big patch or DLC coming in a couple months too.

They've already announced that they'll 'make good' with those who bought the DLC and won't be receiving it.

I assume it'll be credit in the MS store.

[Grifman]

But I've been repeatedly assured over the last 20+ years they're very committed to gaming, especially on PC.

What does this have to do with PC gaming that doesn't also have to do with consoles? This isn't a PC specific issue that I can tell.

[Grifman]

I can tell you exactly what happened. This was something that came down from MS to XBox. They spent a lot of money buying all these studios when money was cheap, when interest rates were near zero. Now interest rates are up, money isn't cheap. In addition, from what I have read Gamepass revenues have stalled out. Exclusives such as Starfield have not moved the needle as much as they needed to (despite what may have been said). All of XBox's increased revenue last year came from acquisitions, not internal growth. I guarantee that MS determined a number in expense and FTE reductions that were needed to hit financial targets, and gave those to Phil Spencer, and said do this, come up with these savings. And Spencer and his team had to do the hard work of deciding what was expendable and what wasn't. And so decisions were made, for better or for worse. In the end, it was purely a financial decision given from on high.

[Kurth]

I'm not sure. I don't think most of those tools are in place yet (beyond making concept art), and they're not going to fire dev teams until the replacement arrives. They're likely also waiting for a guinea pig. Thus far the few games coming out from small studios using AI have faced incredible backlash. There's also the likelihood of lawsuits, and there's a possibility of limiting legislation.

I can't see the larger publishers becoming too reliant on AI until those things have been worked through. It's just not a good large scale business decision yet.

And I don't think it's as much of a factor in this particular thread. If you want to replace half of your team with AI, you don't start by shutting down the entire studio.

A factor? Sure. Something that people in the industry should worry about? Absolutely. But I don't think it's a major one. Yet.

There’s another big factor to consider when we’re talking about generative AI: IP ownership. The law is completely unsettled right not in terms of who owns any IP rights in content output in whole or in part by generative AI. To the extent studios jump all the way in on gen AI, they run a real risk of creating IP they do not own.

[Smoove_B]

What does this have to do with PC gaming that doesn't also have to do with consoles? This isn't a PC specific issue that I can tell.

It's not; I'm just pointing out that MS has repeatedly stated they're super invested in gaming and on top of that, committed to PC gaming.

Spoiler - they're not.

[Rumpy]

I've heard the same. It's like taking a studio that makes flight simulators and having them make League of Legends clone. It's going to be a mess, and the flight sim developers are likely to look for other options.

Redfall, yeah. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's a recipe for disaster. Similar thing happened to Bioware and Anthem. Here's a studio that has been making RPGs for most of its existence, yet they're given a live-service FPS as a project. That doesn't seem like a good use of the studio's talent pool. I would think it would be obvious that a studio should be played to their strengths, in what they're used to doing.

What does this have to do with PC gaming that doesn't also have to do with consoles? This isn't a PC specific issue that I can tell.

It's not; I'm just pointing out that MS has repeatedly stated they're super invested in gaming and on top of that, committed to PC gaming.

Spoiler - they're not.

And herein lies part of the problem with MS and XBox. A lack of follow-through and commitment. And theorethically, if they did really just want the IPs, well sucks for them, because now they don't have the teams with the experience behind those genres. And that's what's so incredibly sad and frustrating about all of what happened. If money is so much of an issue, they should never have been allowed to purchase Zenimax in the first place, let alone Activision Blizzard. It's like their eyes were bigger than their stomachs.

And 12 years without a game is not really saying much these days, as games have been taking longer and longer to be developed before seeing their current projects.

[Blackhawk]

As mentioned, there is so much turnover in game development these days that that kind of high-value IP specific experience often isn't there to begin with.

With a strong IP they can start pumping out sequels or spin-offs with other teams, or they can sit on an IP for a few years and then announce a reboot.

I don't like it,but they're not doing it for me. It's not a terrible business plan, and buying companies just for their IPs is pretty common.

[Grifman]

What does this have to do with PC gaming that doesn't also have to do with consoles? This isn't a PC specific issue that I can tell.

It's not; I'm just pointing out that MS has repeatedly stated they're super invested in gaming and on top of that, committed to PC gaming.

Spoiler - they're not.

Of course they are. They’ve invested billions in gaming studios the last few years. By any definition they are “super invested”. I think they and other developers are all facing issues right now, this isn’t just an XBox issue. Sony is laying off 8% of PlayStation’s staff this year, EA is laying off 5%, and Ubisoft laid off people in 2023 and this year. This just isn’t limited to XBox.

None of these companies are going to stop making games - they literally have too much invested to go otherwise. But it appears they are looking to refocus on what they think will be the most profitable for them. Surprise, capitalism FTW!!!

[Blackhawk]

They absolutely are.

People just interpret that as meaning that they're committed to a specific vision for PC gaming. Gamers are, by and large, either looking for the old days, looking for more attention for a niche, or looking for the kinds of things that don't make the companies behind them millions of dollars.

Microsoft is dedicated to those aspects of gaming that rake in big bucks. Not headaches, not breaking even, not niches, not art, not experimentation, not expanding their horizons, and not your personal preferences or mine. They're dedicated to taking advantage of the platform to make themselves more money. They want to kind of ecosystem and control that they have with the XBox, and they want the studios that make mega-hits, as well as those that provide a constant, safe income without much expenditure.

Saying that they're not dedicated to PC gaming is like saying that Walmart isn't dedicated to small towns - as long as it's a reliable source of income, they're absolutely dedicated.

[Rumpy]

As mentioned, there is so much turnover in game development these days that that kind of high-value IP specific experience often isn't there to begin with.

With a strong IP they can start pumping out sequels or spin-offs with other teams, or they can sit on an IP for a few years and then announce a reboot.

I don't like it,but they're not doing it for me. It's not a terrible business plan, and buying companies just for their IPs is pretty common.

The problem with this plan, is that they still have nothing to show for it. That's been the major criticism driving their buyouts in the first place, to put investments front and center in order to build out their portfolio. Meanwhile, those with XBoxes are still waiting for promised exclusives and are losing faith in the brand.

And their messaging has been absolutely disastrous. You have 3 different XBox leads saying completely contradictory things, like the right arm doesn't know what the left is doing. They don't appear to be in sync what what's going on.

Because:

A) You have Matt Booty who says they'd like to focus on smaller prestige-driven titles, the day after Tango Gameworks was announced to be closing.
B) You have Sarah Bond stating they'd like to get into the mobile gamespace and create their own store. But guess what, they've closed their one mobile gaming studio that could have given that start.
C) Then you have I think it was Spencer saying they'd like to focus on high-impact titles going forward.

Whatever is happening, whether it's a financial issue or not, it's quite clear that there are management issues, and sooner or later someone at the top is going to be sacked.

[Smoove_B]

Saying that they're not dedicated to PC gaming is like saying that Walmart isn't dedicated to small towns - as long as it's a reliable source of income, they're absolutely dedicated.

Yeah, I think that is what I was trying to get at. Microsoft might be into (and supportive) of gaming - but only insofar as it relates to them making money - either through direct sales of a product or by selling a company they gobbled up.

I do not believe Microsoft in any way cares about gamers.