Re: Mars is hard
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:53 pm
So cool.
That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons bring us some web forums whereupon we can gather
https://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/
https://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80115
So cool.
It depends on how the instrument is used and the criticality to the success of the mission. I'm pretty sure the landing cams are not scientifically useful nor are they listed as part of NASA's success criteria for the mission. "Take landing selfie video" for example is not a mission-critical goal, hence no need for custom cameras.Daehawk wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:01 pm They're doing a question and chat thing right now. Someone asked about the cameras and NASA says the yare just bought and used . They barelly modded them to keep out dust and such. You can buy them online yourself. Man thats not like the old days where everything was custom made.
https://www.twitch.tv/nasa
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.
The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
I don't believe there is an economic value to Mars either - unless Musk is thinking about the $$$ to be made shuttling supplies to Mars. However, even if his motives are less than scientifically pure, that's not to say that humanity shouldn't colonize Mars. Also, it's not as if the first colonists to Mars will not be among our best and brightest. In fact, I would argue the first colonists to Mars will be precisely those who think humanity's existence on Earth is precarious, and therefore will strive to ensure Mars doesn't become exploited to the point of harming the environment the way Earth has been. Of possible futures, I think something like the Mars Republic in The Expanse is more likely than most. Certainly given the distances involved I think it's more likely that any company controlled colonization of Mars will result in an independent government sooner rather than later.Holman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:52 am Worth remembering: Mars is a Hellhole.
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.
The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
0% chance. Well, I'll qualify that - the *first* colonists would be highly skilled pioneers to build the infrastructure and get the very basics running. They'd be very few in number and not inclined to widespread exploitation.raydude wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:38 amI don't believe there is an economic value to Mars either - unless Musk is thinking about the $$$ to be made shuttling supplies to Mars. However, even if his motives are less than scientifically pure, that's not to say that humanity shouldn't colonize Mars. Also, it's not as if the first colonists to Mars will not be among our best and brightest. In fact, I would argue the first colonists to Mars will be precisely those who think humanity's existence on Earth is precarious, and therefore will strive to ensure Mars doesn't become exploited to the point of harming the environment the way Earth has been. Of possible futures, I think something like the Mars Republic in The Expanse is more likely than most. Certainly given the distances involved I think it's more likely that any company controlled colonization of Mars will result in an independent government sooner rather than later.Holman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:52 am Worth remembering: Mars is a Hellhole.
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.
The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
The difference is that there is way less margin for error on Mars if you screw up the environment you're living in. On Earth, strip mining mountains and letting the "junk" fall where it may contaminate the riverbeds and streams is ok because one can always bring in bottled water or just let the town die as folks move away from a contaminated site. On Mars, letting "junk" contaminate your water supply leads to death as there are no Martians to buy water from or Martian towns to move to.El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:45 am0% chance. Well, I'll qualify that - the *first* colonists would be highly skilled pioneers to build the infrastructure and get the very basics running. They'd be very few in number and not inclined to widespread exploitation.raydude wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:38 amI don't believe there is an economic value to Mars either - unless Musk is thinking about the $$$ to be made shuttling supplies to Mars. However, even if his motives are less than scientifically pure, that's not to say that humanity shouldn't colonize Mars. Also, it's not as if the first colonists to Mars will not be among our best and brightest. In fact, I would argue the first colonists to Mars will be precisely those who think humanity's existence on Earth is precarious, and therefore will strive to ensure Mars doesn't become exploited to the point of harming the environment the way Earth has been. Of possible futures, I think something like the Mars Republic in The Expanse is more likely than most. Certainly given the distances involved I think it's more likely that any company controlled colonization of Mars will result in an independent government sooner rather than later.Holman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:52 am Worth remembering: Mars is a Hellhole.
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.
The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
However, if and when it becomes safe, affordable, and feasible for anyone to go to and stay on Mars, the first people to come in large numbers will be those who are always pioneers on a frontier - less wealthy people who haven't found opportunity at home and so are seeking it elsewhere (homesteaders and 49ers and whatnot). They will absolutely be willing as a group to stripmine Mars of whatever they can to build a decent life. It's the same force that drives the removal of the rainforest.
Whether there's economic value to Mars is harder to say I think. Though all it would take is to find some widespread economic use for something that's relatively abundant on Mars and rare or nonexistent on Earth.
It's a good thing people never mess with the environment recklessly in ways that endanger their health and safety.raydude wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:59 pmThe difference is that there is way less margin for error on Mars if you screw up the environment you're living in. On Earth, strip mining mountains and letting the "junk" fall where it may contaminate the riverbeds and streams is ok because one can always bring in bottled water or just let the town die as folks move away from a contaminated site. On Mars, letting "junk" contaminate your water supply leads to death as there are no Martians to buy water from or Martian towns to move to.El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:45 am0% chance. Well, I'll qualify that - the *first* colonists would be highly skilled pioneers to build the infrastructure and get the very basics running. They'd be very few in number and not inclined to widespread exploitation.raydude wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:38 amI don't believe there is an economic value to Mars either - unless Musk is thinking about the $$$ to be made shuttling supplies to Mars. However, even if his motives are less than scientifically pure, that's not to say that humanity shouldn't colonize Mars. Also, it's not as if the first colonists to Mars will not be among our best and brightest. In fact, I would argue the first colonists to Mars will be precisely those who think humanity's existence on Earth is precarious, and therefore will strive to ensure Mars doesn't become exploited to the point of harming the environment the way Earth has been. Of possible futures, I think something like the Mars Republic in The Expanse is more likely than most. Certainly given the distances involved I think it's more likely that any company controlled colonization of Mars will result in an independent government sooner rather than later.Holman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:52 am Worth remembering: Mars is a Hellhole.
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.
The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
However, if and when it becomes safe, affordable, and feasible for anyone to go to and stay on Mars, the first people to come in large numbers will be those who are always pioneers on a frontier - less wealthy people who haven't found opportunity at home and so are seeking it elsewhere (homesteaders and 49ers and whatnot). They will absolutely be willing as a group to stripmine Mars of whatever they can to build a decent life. It's the same force that drives the removal of the rainforest.
Whether there's economic value to Mars is harder to say I think. Though all it would take is to find some widespread economic use for something that's relatively abundant on Mars and rare or nonexistent on Earth.
Between playing Surviving Mars and playing Terraforming Mars, this is known. Maybe we set up a toxic greenhouse removal and dumping convoy from Venus to Mars and the both become Goldilocks... Assuming we can find water on Venus.
Over the course of about 18 months, the Mars Odyssey probe detected ongoing radiation levels which are 2.5 times higher than what astronauts experience on the International Space Station – 22 millirads per day, which works out to 8000 millirads (8 rads) per year. The spacecraft also detected 2 solar proton events, where radiation levels peaked at about 2,000 millirads in a day, and a few other events that got up to about 100 millirads.
For comparison, human beings in developed nations are exposed to (on average) 0.62 rads per year. And while studies have shown that the human body can withstand a dose of up to 200 rads without permanent damage, prolonged exposure to the kinds of levels detected on Mars could lead to all kinds of health problems – like acute radiation sickness, increased risk of cancer, genetic damage, and even death.
And given that exposure to any amount of radiation carries with it some degree of risk, NASA and other space agencies maintain a strict policy of ALARA (As-Low-As-Reasonable-Achievable) when planning missions.
A small amount of the material that covered one of the wings of the Wright brothers’ aircraft, known as the Flyer, during the first flight is now aboard Ingenuity. An insulative tape was used to wrap the small swatch of fabric around a cable located underneath the helicopter’s solar panel. The Wrights used the same type of material – an unbleached muslin called “Pride of the West” – to cover their glider and aircraft wings beginning in 1901. The Apollo 11 crew flew a different piece of the material, along with a small splinter of wood from the Wright Flyer, to the Moon and back during their iconic mission in July 1969.
I love all of their historical references. And this show with the code on the Perseverance parachute was also very funny. I wonder what they will come up with for the mission to Titan. If it takes place, of course.Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:00 pm NASA has a good writeup about the process of unpacking Ingenuity, and what to expect if it goes well. First flight is probably around 3 weeks away. Here's a tidbit I didn't know.A small amount of the material that covered one of the wings of the Wright brothers’ aircraft, known as the Flyer, during the first flight is now aboard Ingenuity. An insulative tape was used to wrap the small swatch of fabric around a cable located underneath the helicopter’s solar panel. The Wrights used the same type of material – an unbleached muslin called “Pride of the West” – to cover their glider and aircraft wings beginning in 1901. The Apollo 11 crew flew a different piece of the material, along with a small splinter of wood from the Wright Flyer, to the Moon and back during their iconic mission in July 1969.
The rover will "watch" from a safe distance and might be able to pick up the sound with its microphones. I don't think it has a movie camera, but it can take a rapid sequence of photos like we've seen in the "dust devil" images. The copter is outfitted with a camera as well. It would be cool if it can snap a pic of Perseverance, but IDK if that's in its flight program. Remember that it's autonomous, not RC.
They had to clear out the mushrooms and squirrels first.
"And videos" might mean I was wrong about Perseverance's movie capability.Perseverance will be parked at an overlook 215 feet (65 meters) away from the helicopter so it can safely watch the flight and capture images and videos.
Mastcam-Z has cameras that can zoom in, focus, and take 3D pictures and video at high speed to allow detailed examination of distant objects.
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:12 am I'm surprised there's enough atmosphere on Mars to allow powered flight. It must have been pretty challenging getting a helicopter to work in those conditions.
Getting airborne on the Red Planet is not easy. The atmosphere is very thin, just 1% of the density here at Earth. This gives the blades on a rotorcraft very little to bite into to gain lift.
There's help from the lower gravity at Mars, but still - it takes a lot of work to get up off the ground.
Ingenuity was therefore made extremely light and given the power to turn those blades extremely fast - at over 2,500 revolutions per minute for this particular flight.
Today’s RC helicopters are ‘insanely’ overpowered and can maneuver unlike a real sized helicopter.Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:12 am I'm surprised there's enough atmosphere on Mars to allow powered flight. It must have been pretty challenging getting a helicopter to work in those conditions.