Racism in America (with data)

[LawBeefaroni]

-- It says three factors contributed to this death: "The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death."

Shouldn't the autopsy process (i.e. blood tests, etc) be able give a pretty definitive "yes" or "no" answer as to whether he had intoxicants in his system?

It feels awfully suspect for them to throw in a "well, he might have been high, so..." as a potential out.

IIUC it also means something for any civil liability. Other attributable causes mean the cop/city aren't 100% liable in a civil suit.

[Holman]

More of this, please.

(Atlanta Chief of Police actually listening to protesters after an afternoon of tension that included smashing of police vehicles.)

[Blackhawk]

Charging him is a good first step. But as I recall, some of the biggest comparable riots in history didn't start because of the incident, they started when the criminals were exonerated. There will be a lot of eyes on this trial.

[Grifman]

How to respond to "riots never solve anything"

This if a false equivalence. The colonists that revolted against England were not able to participate in a representative government, they had no way to seek redress of their grievances against the king's representatives in the colonies. That's why they went to war in the first place.

Here in the US, we do have that ability. We can go to our representatives at various levels of government and seek change peacefully. We can protest peacefully. We can vote. Things have been changed in American history by movements that did all of these things.

There is no room for violence and rioting unless you want anarchy and civil war. And I bet the writer of this article would feel entirely different if it were his business or car being torched. All the author is doing is rationalizing violence. I could just as easily rationalize police violence but I don't think he'd like that (nor would I).

I don't buy this argument in the least. In a representative democracy, violence is wrong - period.

[Skinypupy]

There was a lot in there past that very first sentence regarding colonists.

I’m not saying I agree with a violent approach. What I am saying is that given the lack of any sort of progress in regards to changing the number of black Americans being murdered by police, I do understand why they might feel it’s necessary.

[Grifman]

There was a lot in there past that very first sentence regarding colonists.

It's all just rationalization, and my point about this being a representative democracy where the people can seek redress of their grievances still stands against every point he tries to make. And the points regarding anarchy and civil war still stand also.

He also talks about why worry about property being destroyed since it is just large corporations. Yet that is not true - in many cases rioting destroys job producing and service providing small businesses. In some areas after rioting, those just go away and it takes years to recover, if ever.

[LawBeefaroni]

There was a lot in there past that very first sentence regarding colonists.

It's all just rationalization, and my point about this being a representative democracy where the people can seek redress of their grievances still stands against every point he tries to make.

We live in a representative democracy where the gold standard is the ability if citizens to redress grievances. It's not universal. Sometimes proper redress that takes generations isn't fast enough. Sometimes it takes something like the Stonewall Riots to kick off democracy.

When the cost of waiting is murder and persecution, it's hard to blame some people for not waiting until their great great grandkids have a chance to fix things.

[Grifman]

There was a lot in there past that very first sentence regarding colonists.

It's all just rationalization, and my point about this being a representative democracy where the people can seek redress of their grievances still stands against every point he tries to make.

We live in a representative democracy where the gold standard is the ability if citizens to redress grievances. It's not universal. Sometimes proper redress that takes generations isn't fast enough. Sometimes it takes something like the Stonewall Riots to kick off democracy.

When the cost of waiting is murder and persecution, it's hard to blame some people for not waiting until their great great grandkids have a chance to fix things.

The fact that good can come out of bad doesn't justify the bad. Using this logic, there's no reason not to become violent if someone thinks it will advance their cause. So where do you draw the line? What if rioting results in death? The problem is that violence can very easily spiral out of control - just ask Reginald Denny.

[malchior]

There is a huge mob besieging CNN right now in Atlanta. They've breached the lobby. This is turning into 1967/1968. Someone threw a pyrotechnic device inside and police started deploying tear gas.

[LawBeefaroni]

There was a lot in there past that very first sentence regarding colonists.

It's all just rationalization, and my point about this being a representative democracy where the people can seek redress of their grievances still stands against every point he tries to make.

We live in a representative democracy where the gold standard is the ability if citizens to redress grievances. It's not universal. Sometimes proper redress that takes generations isn't fast enough. Sometimes it takes something like the Stonewall Riots to kick off democracy.

When the cost of waiting is murder and persecution, it's hard to blame some people for not waiting until their great great grandkids have a chance to fix things.

The fact that good can come out of bad doesn't justify the bad. Using this logic, there's no reason not to become violent if someone thinks it will advance their cause. So where do you draw the line? What if rioting results in death? The problem is that violence can very easily spiral out of control - just ask Reginald Denny.

I thought you were making the argument that there is a viable alternative under our government. I'm saying that sometimes there isn't (though our current situation may or may not be one of those times).

If violence and body count is the primary issue, then how is a revolutionary war any better?


There is no hard and fast rule and history (and autorities) will judge harshly anyone who makes the wrong choice. But there are inevitably times when force is justified. It is best used sparingly because the consequences of the wrong choice are dire.

[Freyland]

I'm ignorant.

Why siege CNN?

[LawBeefaroni]

There is a huge mob besieging CNN right now in Atlanta. They've breached the lobby. This is turning into 1967/1968. Someone threw a pyrotechnic device inside and police started deploying tear gas.

WTH? Boogaloo bois?

Turned on CNN (first time in forever) and they're live with a reporter in Minneapolis. 1000s are matching towards the 1st precinct. No cops, apparently they are holding back for tactical reasons.

[malchior]

I thought you were making the argument that there is a viable alternative under our government. I'm saying that sometimes there isn't (though our current situation may or may not be one of those times).

Circumstances suggest that black people aren't going to get relief but these incidents are going beyond blacks. This is general rage. I'd be unsurprised that this is essentially mob mentality driven by outrage at how broken our society is. Likely across wide swaths of issues. There was obviously a *lot of rage* in our communities only waiting for a match to light it.

[malchior]

There is a huge mob besieging CNN right now in Atlanta. They've breached the lobby. This is turning into 1967/1968. Someone threw a pyrotechnic device inside and police started deploying tear gas.

WTH? Boogaloo bois?

Turned on CNN (first time in forever) and they're live with a reporter in Minneapolis. 1000s are matching towards the 1st precinct. No cops, apparently they are holding back for tactical reasons.

It was a Floyd protest turned into riot. They've been switching around. They went to MN while they evac'ed the crew from inside the building.

[morlac]

Watching the local news her for last 3 hours. ATL police have been exceptional. That and the Mayors news conference were amazing.

[malchior]

NYPD has been pretty rough at times but they have maintained control so far. Like this fuck the police moment. He could have killed her. Disgusting.

[malchior]

The White House is surrounded but no one is covering it live. The WH is on lock down allegedly.

Edit: This might have been about an hour ago. Like I said it isn't really being covered on tv for whatever reason.

[malchior]

Louisville, KY. Police firing pepper bullets at news crew. What is going on with the police? I get that tensions are high but this is pure stupidity.



NYPD - police officer intentionally assaults person on street with their car door.

[hepcat]

[Isgrimnur]

Gerrymandering is the new taxation without representation.

[Kurth]

Atlanta Mayor nails it:

Atlanta mayor makes impassioned plea to calm violence: "If you care about this city, then go home"

Riots and anarchy are not a way forward.

[Alefroth]

Atlanta Mayor nails it:

Atlanta mayor makes impassioned plea to calm violence: "If you care about this city, then go home"

Riots and anarchy are not a way forward.

Until they are.

[Blackhawk]

There was no way forward.

I don't support violence, but when every other measure fails, when nobody will listen, sometimes punching the bully is the only option left to try. And the fact is that riots in the past have often brought about positive changes that every other attempt at failed.

We have a deep desire to seek out the 'good' solution, often from a detached perspective. Sometimes there just is not a good solution, and you have to choose between a bad solution and none at all.

[Kurth]

There was no way forward.

I don't support violence, but when every other measure fails, when nobody will listen, sometimes punching the bully is the only option left to try. And the fact is that riots in the past have often brought about positive changes that every other attempt at failed.

We have a deep desire to seek out the 'good' solution, often from a detached perspective. Sometimes there just is not a good solution, and you have to choose between a bad solution and none at all.

Attacking the CNN center in Atlanta is not punching the bully. It's not going to bring about positive change. It's not a solution at all. It's just stupid, and no one should waste breath trying to justify it.

And this is coming from someone who hates CNN!

[Blackhawk]

And yet the Rodney King riots were so severe that they forced the hidden issues to the forefront and resulted in positive change. Through burning and looting.

I won't say the riots are right. But I'm not sure I can say that the rioters are completely in the wrong, either.

[malchior]

The clip below is worth a watch/listen if you have the time. I'm in total agreement with him on where we *are* complete with the observation that Trump doesn't seem to care. There isn't much discussion about what's next and frankly that is a theme with Cornel West. I think he puts things in perspective well but is the pure academic who can't channel that into form. Though to be fair, I think that might be because it's a total crapshoot at the moment. If the Great Ghost Dance started and we ended up as the UCAS in 10 years I wouldn't be surprised anymore.

Does anything positive comes out of this? I don't know. I doubt it. The reasons they are enraged are the same forces that enrage many of us except we're older and more settled. We should *all* be out on the streets demanding reform of this broken system. That said, the political system isn't likely to get more responsive because people smashed up the streets.

The trouble there is we don't have that once in a generation leader (no not even Obama) who can step up, speak to all this, and channel it positively. Biden isn't that person. He is a placeholder who is *not Trump*. He is a bridge to the past.

Gerrymandering is the new taxation without representation.

Yes. And it is part of a bigger pattern. The anti-democratic features of this system have been leading us to this point for a long time. Power in the United States hasn't just concentrated in a minority of the people in this nation. Whether it was an autocratic corporate aligned GOP or a feckless, disorganized and political inept corporate aligned Democratic party, both parties have systematically partnered with the very wealthy to set up a system which has delivered vast wealth inequality. Sure the Democrats want to also serve the discouraged but lack *any ability to deliver it* in this system. And the wealth inequality is perpetuating more and more plutocratic control of the system. That spiral is fuel for the fires that are burning our streets. This is a system that is collapsing.

[LordMortis]

Fail better. I like it.

[Smoove_B]

BREAKING: Pentagon takes rare step of putting military police on alert to go to embattled Minneapolis.

Soldiers from Fort Bragg in North Carolina and Fort Drum in New York have been ordered to be ready to deploy within four hours if called, according to three people with direct knowledge of the orders. Soldiers in Fort Carson, in Colorado, and Fort Riley in Kansas have been told to be ready within 24 hours. The people did not want their names used because they were not authorized to discuss the preparations.

....

Active-duty forces are normally prohibited from acting as a domestic law enforcement agency. But the Insurrection Act offers an exception.

The Act would allow the military to take up a policing authority it otherwise would not be allowed to do, enforcing state and federal laws, said Stephen Vladeck, a University of Texas School of Law professor who specializes in constitutional and national security law.

The statute “is deliberately vague” when it comes to the instances in which the Insurrection Act could be used, he said. The state’s governor could ask President Donald Trump to take action or Trump could act on his own authority if he’s determined that the local authorities are so overwhelmed that they can’t adequately enforce the law, Vladeck said.

“It is a very, very broad grant of authority for the president,” he added.

That's reassuring - a broad grant of authority for arguably the worst human being in the highest public office.

[malchior]

When they are talking about the exceptions to Posse Comitatus you know we are in a bad place. We are a basketcase shit hole nation. Just like Trump wants it.

[$iljanus]

BREAKING: Pentagon takes rare step of putting military police on alert to go to embattled Minneapolis.

Soldiers from Fort Bragg in North Carolina and Fort Drum in New York have been ordered to be ready to deploy within four hours if called, according to three people with direct knowledge of the orders. Soldiers in Fort Carson, in Colorado, and Fort Riley in Kansas have been told to be ready within 24 hours. The people did not want their names used because they were not authorized to discuss the preparations.

....

Active-duty forces are normally prohibited from acting as a domestic law enforcement agency. But the Insurrection Act offers an exception.

The Act would allow the military to take up a policing authority it otherwise would not be allowed to do, enforcing state and federal laws, said Stephen Vladeck, a University of Texas School of Law professor who specializes in constitutional and national security law.

The statute “is deliberately vague” when it comes to the instances in which the Insurrection Act could be used, he said. The state’s governor could ask President Donald Trump to take action or Trump could act on his own authority if he’s determined that the local authorities are so overwhelmed that they can’t adequately enforce the law, Vladeck said.

“It is a very, very broad grant of authority for the president,” he added.

That's reassuring - a broad grant of authority for arguably the worst human being in the highest public office.

Oh shit,The Insurrection Act?!? I guess it would have been better if the protesters were rioting against social distancing and masks. And if they were white of course.

I believe a Federal mobilization was being planned during the riots after King’s assassination as well.

Edit: There was military involvement in the LA riots so it’s not unheard of. But with this jackass in the White House it’s bound to be taken as the start of civil war in the US. I hope the governors will just say thanks but no thanks to such offers of Federal help. Another situation where the military needs to carefully plan how not to let things devolve into a shitstorm in case the Cheeto in Chief decides to issue another one of his silly orders.

[Holman]

I just saw it pointed out that this will be the summer of Covid-19 or the summer of Civil Unrest, and Trump definitely doesn't want the summer of Covid-19.

[Holman]

This is MLK in 1967.



More context:

Dr. Martin Luther King "The Other America" speech excerpt

"…that America has been backlashing on the whole question of basic constitutional and God-given rights for Negroes and other disadvantaged groups for more than 300 years.

"So these conditions, existence of widespread poverty, slums, and of tragic conditions in schools and other areas of life, all of these things have brought about a great deal of despair, and a great deal of desperation. A great deal of disappointment and even bitterness in the Negro communities. And today, all of our cities confront huge problems. All of our cities are potentially powder kegs as a result of the continued existence of these conditions. Many in moments of anger, many in moments of deep bitterness, engage in riots.

"Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and justice. I feel that violence will only create more social problems than they will solve. That in a real sense it is impracticable for the Negro to even think of mounting a violent revolution in the United States. So I will continue to condemn riots, and continue to say to my brothers and sisters that this is not the way. And continue to affirm that there is another way.

"But at the same time, it is as necessary for me to be as vigorous in condemning the conditions which cause persons to feel that they must engage in riotous activities as it is for me to condemn riots. I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity. And so in a real sense, our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention."

[$iljanus]

I just saw it pointed out that this will be the summer of Covid-19 or the summer of Civil Unrest, and Trump definitely doesn't want the summer of Covid-19.

In this wonderful country of ours we can have both it seems! Go America!

[Holman]

And here's Il Douche celebrating his capacity for violence against citizens:

Great job last night at the White House by the U.S. @SecretService. They were not only totally professional, but very cool. I was inside, watched every move, and couldn’t have felt more safe. They let the “protesters” scream & rant as much as they wanted, but whenever someone....

....got too frisky or out of line, they would quickly come down on them, hard - didn’t know what hit them. The front line was replaced with fresh agents, like magic. Big crowd, professionally organized, but nobody came close to breaching the fence. If they had they would....

....have been greeted with the most vicious dogs, and most ominous weapons, I have ever seen. That’s when people would have been really badly hurt, at least. Many Secret Service agents just waiting for action. “We put the young ones on the front line, sir, they love it, and....

....good practice.” As you saw last night, they were very cool & very professional. Never let it get out of hand. Thank you! On the bad side, the D.C. Mayor, @MurielBowser, who is always looking for money & help, wouldn’t let the D.C. Police get involved. “Not their job.” Nice!

It's obvious he wants blood in the streets. God help us.

[Smoove_B]

~63 million Americans voted for him, presumably to get this result. It's unreal that during what is arguably the greatest crisis in modern American history (certainly the greatest since WW2), he's seemingly trying to whip up a race war and calling for violence against protestors.

[Unagi]

I don't buy this argument in the least. In a representative democracy, violence is wrong - period.

I’m not sure I buy the argument that they find themselves in a representative government.


Additionally, when people are being killed, that’s when people are justified to ‘raise the stakes’.

It stands for the police side of things too.
And it stands for how you would behave if a madman has your wife and two daughters tied up and was going to kill your second daughter after just brutally killing your first daughter in front of your own eyes.


Be realistic.

[Unagi]

And here's Il Douche celebrating his capacity for violence against citizens:

Great job last night at the White House by the U.S. @SecretService. They were not only totally professional, but very cool. I was inside, watched every move, and couldn’t have felt more safe. They let the “protesters” scream & rant as much as they wanted, but whenever someone....

....got too frisky or out of line, they would quickly come down on them, hard - didn’t know what hit them. The front line was replaced with fresh agents, like magic. Big crowd, professionally organized, but nobody came close to breaching the fence. If they had they would....

....have been greeted with the most vicious dogs, and most ominous weapons, I have ever seen. That’s when people would have been really badly hurt, at least. Many Secret Service agents just waiting for action. “We put the young ones on the front line, sir, they love it, and....

....good practice.” As you saw last night, they were very cool & very professional. Never let it get out of hand. Thank you! On the bad side, the D.C. Mayor, @MurielBowser, who is always looking for money & help, wouldn’t let the D.C. Police get involved. “Not their job.” Nice!

It's obvious he wants blood in the streets. God help us.

Honestly. It seems like he is scared of the reality brewing outside his door and in yelling: “If you do anything to me, my daddy is going to beat this shit out of you....”

[malchior]

That this is where he is focusing on is...fucking pathetic...he truly is Nero at this point. In a thousand years they'll be talking about how Trump tweeted while America burned and the population died of plague. We live in unprecedented times.

I just saw an expert on riots on CNN. He was saying that militarized police is definitely one of the causes of this crisis. He said the surest way to defuse the situation is to deescalate and talk with the crowd. Anyone seeing that happen? Maybe here and there.

[Unagi]

The Police Chief in Atlanta did a pretty good job. I'd say she did about as good as anyone could hope for.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/917329/a ... protesters

[malchior]

The Police Chief in Atlanta did a pretty good job. I'd say she did about as good as anyone could hope for.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/917329/a ... protesters

Agreed. She is talking with the right tone and candor. Hopefully her force reflects these values. Unfortunately she and other progressive voices in the police community are being put in this position by a complicated and hard to solve set of policy and societal issues. And they have no control over how those issues are addressed or played out. They might be in a position sometimes to be a stakeholder but these issues are at a scale that appears to be overwhelming now.