Octopus Overlords

Octavious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:56 am I do think it's that bad sadly. The opinions and beliefs of at least 76 million people don't even remotely align with anything I want to be a part of . I know tonnnnnnsssss of people personally who after the last few years it's reveled that they are total garbage. They just needed someone to make it ok to not hide their crap.

This, except for the knowing the revelers. I've seen them but that people I know (and who surprise me) endorse, accept, or both sides as part of that 76 Million but they are still part and I'm at a loss.

Trump's (hopefully) out of the equation, though. I don't think we can dismiss Trump's power as a personality. Will those same 76 million line up behind an <insert generic Republican here>? Will they turn out in the same numbers? I'm not convinced.

Octavious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:52 am If I had the means I totally would move out of this country yesterday. Mass shootings over and over... People worshipping a guy who got over half a million people killed. Out in the open racist crap on Fox News. When Obama was in office I had a feeling everything was going in the right direction and had hope. I have zero faith in our country at this point.

I think we seem to forget we had plenty of mass shootings when Obama was in office ( please note I'm not blaming him Obama, rarely it's due to a president, unless your Trump feeding his base with his rhetoric)

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:41 amThis is, after all, the same country that felt hopeful under 8 years of Obama. Those people are still there. And having Trump's deplorables come out of the woodwork and be more vocal doesn't change the demographics. If anything, Trump caused more people to jump ship, and the GOP has alienated more than it has attracted.

I think it felt hopeful to some and a disaster to others. The racist and populist backlash after all delivered us Trump. Personally, I saw the Obama years as discouraging. We had smart people in the driver's seat and they were prevented from anything but short-term token efforts at progress that left the country essentially in neutral unless you were in the top 10% or so of the population. It has only gotten worse since. Our leadership caste is full of clowns, bunglers, and do nothings. The best of us are left to talk about their great ideas but have no prospect of getting them done.

Sure I could be wrong, and we could see a wave of GOP control for the next decade. On the flip side, the Trump disaster may have been the catalyst that kicks off years of progressive movement. Right now I think it's too early to make that call.

I think this will be one of the most challenging periods outside of the civil war in the nation's history. We're looking at a bit of a boom but that'll mask the deep, deep rot that is primed to really turn things south. We'll see bright spots for sure but the trajectory will be challenged as we are not prepared for climate change. We aren't prepared for the shift in the world order that is happening since Trump undermined confidence in our leadership. And we aren't prepared to face any of our very real problems. We can't solve simple problems much less complex ones. For me, international travel over the last few years made the scales fall from my eyes. Our society is not healthy. And unless our political system changes dramatically to begin to address that America's best years are almost certainly in the past.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:20 am Trump's (hopefully) out of the equation, though. I don't think we can dismiss Trump's power as a personality. Will those same 76 million line up behind an <insert generic Republican here>? Will they turn out in the same numbers? I'm not convinced.

They don't need to. The system is at a point that even in defeat the Republicans have outsized control and that doesn't have any real prospect of change. We'll likely see this sharply next year after redistricting and voting changes hit home.

naednek wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:42 am

Octavious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:52 am If I had the means I totally would move out of this country yesterday. Mass shootings over and over... People worshipping a guy who got over half a million people killed. Out in the open racist crap on Fox News. When Obama was in office I had a feeling everything was going in the right direction and had hope. I have zero faith in our country at this point.

I think we seem to forget we had plenty of mass shootings when Obama was in office ( please note I'm not blaming him Obama, rarely it's due to a president, unless your Trump feeding his base with his rhetoric)

I don't forget it. 2017 was still the wool coming off from over my eyes. Under Obama (and presidents that preceded him) I fooled myself. I don't know how that genie goes back in the bottle.

From Bill Harris - one of the most infamous shootings ever.

Octavious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:52 am If I had the means I totally would move out of this country yesterday. Mass shootings over and over... People worshipping a guy who got over half a million people killed. Out in the open racist crap on Fox News. When Obama was in office I had a feeling everything was going in the right direction and had hope. I have zero faith in our country at this point.

I feel the same way. I know I won't be able to leave, so I actively try to be optimistic. Maybe Biden will be able to put in enough reforms to fix voting, I tell myself. Maybe Trump will split the Republicans so thoroughly that they'll be out of the running for a while. Maybe the pandemic ending will ease the tensions. Maybe something will happen to give Biden four years instead of two.

Maybe none of it is terribly realistic, but the alternative is horrible. The alternative is to accept that we've fallen and won't be coming back from it. It is to give up and just survive while everyone else suffers because nothing else can be done. That isn't me. I don't want to go there, because once I do, I don't see myself coming back. So I stay forcibly optimistic while quaking inside.

Meanwhile, in Texas:

The Texas House passed a bill Thursday that would allow people to open carry handguns without a permit. If approved, it would make Texas the largest state in the nation to allow no-permit handgun carry.

The bill is advancing through the Texas legislature despite opposition from local police chiefs, who said it puts officers at risks and lets citizens carry guns without proper training and vetting.

...

Under current Texas law, residents must obtained a permit to carry a handgun, which requires a training class, shooting class, written exam and an application fee of up to $40.

The bill would allow for anyone 21 or older to carry a handgun — either concealed or openly in a holster — without fulfilling those steps. It also says business owners must verbally tell customers if guns aren't allowed in their businesses, rather than only posting a sign.

This definitely seems like a well-thought out response to the current problem. Also, I guess the problem with masks in TX was that the store owners weren't ordered to verbally tell customers they should be wearing them.

The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, right? Amazing how that hasn't worked out yet. More guns will fix it. Is there a term for when an entire society is mentally ill?

malchior wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:32 am Is there a term for when an entire society is mentally ill?

Republican?

So we just had our second mass shooting at Westroads Mall.

The previous one was fourteen years ago.

Technically, this would actually be the third but the other one (just a month ago) was not a mass shooting incident.

Sorry to hear about it Brian.

And let's not forget the shooting at the high school when Mads was still attending.

Just one more reason why we weren't super excited to move back to Omaha.

He was able to do that because the red law, or those tasked with enforcing it, failed.

It remains uncertain whether a judge ruled against a red flag determination in Mr. Hole’s case or whether prosecutors took his case before a judge at all.

The Marion County Prosecutor’s Office did not respond to questions about whether they pursued a red flag ruling against Mr. Hole. A search of online court records did not reveal any such case associated with his name.

I'd seen a similar story in TN - a story I'm only aware of because of its connection to board games (the individual involved was part of a rather well-known indie publisher). Regardless, he killed his wife, MIL and then himself, but there was a point in time when maybe it could have been addressed:

Tennessee code gives officers the ability to confiscate weapons used by or threatened to be used by the abuser if the officer finds probable cause.

Marie reported what happened several days later, which for officers meant they could only confiscate a firearm in plain sight. Otherwise, they would need consent from [him] for a search of the home.

Officers arrested [him] for aggravated assault and false imprisonment. They released Shaun after posting a $30,000 bond, but a judge issued a temporary Order of Protection. If Shaun had been convicted of his charges, he would have had to forfeit all his firearms within 48 hours of the conviction. It’s important to note that while Shaun was accused of using a pistol in the March incident, Lebanon Police say he used a shotgun on Monday.

Just like I don't understand the purchase laws in other states, I really don't understand the laws covering what happens when a known gun-owner is involved with a situation where they use or threaten to use a gun on someone.

I was just reading some more. Not only was the gun seized based on his parent's warnings but the FBI interviewed him and determined they didn't see a criminal violation or racially-motivated extremism in his views. This guy had all eyes on him and he still was able to do this. Last week he posted to a Brony fan forum indications he was able to do something drastic as well. I don't know what we can do as a society when everyone knows the guy is going to do it and yet we fail to do anything effective to stop them.

Edit: In the TN case that Smoove_B posted, I have to wonder why couldn't *she* authorize a search of her own home especially since she is the victim. I'm not sure it would have mattered. It is all a hypothetical but they can confiscate all the weapons they want. He had the freedom to just go out and buy one anyway most likely.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:31 am

Just like I don't understand the purchase laws in other states, I really don't understand the laws covering what happens when a known gun-owner is involved with a situation where they use or threaten to use a gun on someone.

If they're convicted of a felony they become a prohibited person and cannot legally purchase.

The problem is that even when we have laws, they aren't enforced. Or charges are dropped.


The list of shooters who should have been prohibited but weren't due to failure of bureaucracy or prosecution is long.

Austin

Authorities are looking for a former sheriff's office detective suspected of killing three people in a shooting in Austin, Texas.

The victims were pronounced dead at the scene Sunday, according to tweets from Austin-Travis County EMS. The shooting appears to be "a domestic situation that is isolated," Austin police said in a tweet.
...
Broderick is a former Travis County Sheriff's Office detective who was charged with sexual assault of a child, Travis County Sheriff's Office spokeswoman Kristen Dark told CNN.

Dark said Broderick resigned from the department last year after he was arrested and charged in the child sexual assault case. He was arrested June 6, 2020 and released on bond the same month.
...
The shooting was targeted and the three victims -- two women and one man -- knew Broderick, according to Chacon. A child was involved but has been located and is safe, he added.

They got him.

Dude basically executed his whole family. His wife, his daughter, and her boyfriend.

Quiet guy, never would have expected something like this...oh, wait:

Stephen Broderick is a former Travis County Sheriff’s detective and was charged with sexual assault of a child in June 2020.

He bonded out of jail days after his arrest and resigned from the sheriff’s office, according to a spokeswoman.

What amount of gun or police reform will get this to stop happening?
None.
It's society that needs to be reformed.

https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/6-y ... an-square/

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:40 am What amount of gun or police reform will get this to stop happening?
None.
It's society that needs to be reformed.

I think we're largely in agreement. If we suddenly stopped selling guns and ammo nationwide today, I shudder to think about the amount of both in the hands of private owners right now.

Which isn't to say we shouldn't take up police and gun reform, but I'm under no illusion it will magically address all the guns that are currently out there right now. We have a real problem and short of a federally funded buyback program that is off-the-charts generous, I really don't know how that's ever going to change.

What do you think the argument was about to make someone so upset that they opened fire at a 12 year old's birthday party?
The type of cake? Lack of clowns? No gift bags?
What type of reform will prevent this from happening? A law declaring only chocolate cake at all birthdays? Minimum of 3 clowns? Gift bags are mandatory?

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/huffpos ... 55793.html

Do you really want to spin these tragic events for laughs? Even if you think it’s being ironic?

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:43 pm Do you really want to spin these tragic events for laughs? Even if you think it’s being ironic?

I'm not laughing and I certainly hope no one else is.
I guess I'm pointing out what should be obvious.
That no matter what kind of rules or regulations are added to those we already have, nothing will stop this kind of senseless violence.
People just suck.

All or nothing, eh?

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:19 pm All or nothing, eh?

Yep. Just like all of your views on Republicans.

I like George Bush. Now you say something nice about a dem.

I like Jimmy Carter.

There we go. We both like people on the other side of the aisle.

I feel safe in saying that we have pretty much jumped the shark as a country wrt guns.

Well done, 2a fuckers, you’ve really cocked it up for everybody with your fanaticism and unwillingness to give even an inch.

The slightest HINT of reform has been absurdly pilloried and rebuked for years, and this is where we are as a result. And now it’s too late.

Well. Fucking. Done.

Meanwhile, rest of the world is looking at us in our absurd, self-made gun bubble, wringing our hands that nothing can be done. They are trying to shout at us through the bubble walls, but they are too thick, and we don’t hear.

“YOU STUPID, VIOLENT TWATS, YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, YOU JUST CHOOSE NOT TO!!”

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:59 pm

“YOU STUPID, VIOLENT TWATS, YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, YOU JUST CHOOSE NOT TO!!”

Yep. And we won't ever do anything meaningful.

We can't do anything genuinely meaningful and impactful without getting the gun rights people on board, too. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can, but it's all band-aids and duct tape.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:59 pm I feel safe in saying that we have pretty much jumped the shark as a country wrt guns.

Well done, 2a fuckers, you’ve really cocked it up for everybody with your fanaticism and unwillingness to give even an inch.

Uh.....what "inch" would have helped with ANY of the stuff that's been happening lately?

We've seen Red Flag laws fail in Indiana. We've seen a COP go on a shooting spree in Austin. We've seen a young man with no prior felony arrests go crazy in Boulder.

I ask in good faith - what, short of "taking all the guns" would have stopped these things? Not that there's anything wrong with "taking all the guns," per say, but that's not an inch. That's taking the whole damn pie, which is exactly what the 2 Amendment folks are afraid of.

Reasonable limits on what's available to the public. Reasonable steps to prevent people who are likely dangerous from owning guns. Reasonable requirements to carry a gun in public.

Instead, every possible limitation is treated as if it were 'take all the guns', and we end up with nothing, or with legislation that's so watered down and full of holes that it's effectively nothing.

And yeah, there will be some incidents that will miss any restrictions, but we can catch a lot of them. And mass shootings are still just the tip of the iceberg. They're the visible part that everyone sees and that gets all the attention. But some limits would also reduce the thousands of other gun deaths that aren't mass shootings.

But not an inch. We can't have reason, we can't have compromise. It's all or nothing, and FREEDOM!

This is what I was talking about in the COVID politics thread. Our experiment in absolute 'freedom' is anything but freedom.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:32 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:59 pm I feel safe in saying that we have pretty much jumped the shark as a country wrt guns.

Well done, 2a fuckers, you’ve really cocked it up for everybody with your fanaticism and unwillingness to give even an inch.

Uh.....what "inch" would have helped with ANY of the stuff that's been happening lately?

We've seen Red Flag laws fail in Indiana. We've seen a COP go on a shooting spree in Austin. We've seen a young man with no prior felony arrests go crazy in Boulder.

I ask in good faith - what, short of "taking all the guns" would have stopped these things? Not that there's anything wrong with "taking all the guns," per say, but that's not an inch. That's taking the whole damn pie, which is exactly what the 2 Amendment folks are afraid of.

This argument just doesn't hunt anymore. The red flag law failed? Is is a good law? Was it well designed? That cop was charged with crimes yet still had his weapons. Can we stop every crime? Of course, not but what we see is we do not value solving this problem at all. We say we do but it never leads to actual action.

How many rights should one surrender merely because one is accused of a crime?

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:59 pmReasonable limits on what's available to the public. Reasonable steps to prevent people who are likely dangerous from owning guns. Reasonable requirements to carry a gun in public.

Sure. Everyone agrees with reasonable limits. That's what the NFA is supposed to be. It's the details that get sticky.

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:05 pmThis argument just doesn't hunt anymore.

What argument?

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:05 pmThe red flag law failed? Is is a good law? Was it well designed?

Well, it did what it was supposed to do - he lost his gun, and did not commit suicide as his mother feared he might. But as this article points out...well, it gets complicated.

“I think people hear ‘red flag’ and they think it’s the panacea to all these issues,” Mr. Mears said in the news conference. “It’s not. What it is, is a good start,” he said, adding that because of “a number of loopholes in the practical application of this law,” the authorities do not always have “the tools they need to make the most well-informed decisions.”

In Mr. Hole’s case, prosecutors considered his immediate mental health crisis — his mother told them he had talked of killing himself — to be the priority, and after his gun was taken away, they considered the crisis averted. Research has shown that red flag laws do prevent gun suicides, and some of those who have studied gun violence say that suicide prevention should be seen as the primary purpose of such laws.

Kendra Parris, a lawyer in Florida who has fought against risk protection orders, as red flag laws are legally described, said law enforcement officials have not had much success predicting who was capable of mass violence.

“The idea that we are going to fix this with R.P.O.s at the state level,” Ms. Parris said, “it strikes me as folly.”

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:05 pm That cop was charged with crimes yet still had his weapons.

Yeah. He was charged, not convicted. Big difference.

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:05 pm We say we do but it never leads to actual action.

Because, again, the devil is in the details.

Unless we're going to repeal the 2nd Amendment, there are some very hard limits on what we can do legislatively. (I'm personally not in favor of taking shortcuts around constitutional rights, because shenanigans beget shenanigans, and it won't stop at the 2nd.) We can tinker around the edges. We can look at red flag laws and better databases...but none of that is going to stop most of the shooting that we're currently seeing.

And the 2nd Amendment isn't set in stone. We can most certainly repeal it, hell, we convinced people to make booze illegal only a hundred years ago. So if that's what we want to do, fine...but let's be honest about it.