[Streaming] Max (né HBO Max)

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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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I think Batman in the comics/Nolan's version are mistakenly pegged as rage machines. I don't think that's true though. They're obsessed with justice, which is not the same as vengeance. That's the polar opposite of Snyder's characterization.

Batman Begins actually goes out its way to show that Bruce Wayne has to conquer his rage to become an effective instrument of justice. That's almost the point of the entire first part of the film.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:02 pm In the comics, the Joker beats a young teenage boy to death with a baseball bat.
Bomb. He killed him with a bomb. ;)
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:02 pm
Sudy wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:58 pm I dunno man, that level of chaos and depravity is the soul of true evil. It was still a guy in clown makeup, but if I were a kid and it didn't scare me, it would only be because I didn't understand it. [Edit: Which is what you mentioned. But then why show it to someone who can't fully appreciate it?] Maybe it would be different after I knew the ending, and how pathetically he ended.
In the comics, the Joker beats a young teenage boy to death with a baseball bat. He then cripples a young woman and then it's implied he sexually assaulted her.

Nolan's Joker trying to prove people are basically awful sounds downright tame to me in comparison.
I don't think other portrayals are relevant in the context of deciding whether it's right for a younger audience though. Of course I'm not going to recommend an eight-year-old read The Killing Joke lol. Just that on one level, Ledger's joker scared the crap out of me in a way that no comic movie villain had before, or has since. I appreciate that not everyone is going to have the same experience. And this many years later, I probably wouldn't either.

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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:05 pm
hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:02 pm In the comics, the Joker beats a young teenage boy to death with a baseball bat.
Bomb. He killed him with a bomb. ;)
And it was a crowbar he almost beat him to death with, not a baseball bat. My bad. It's been a long time since I read that comic. I just remember being stunned beyond belief at the time.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:04 pm I think Batman in the comics/Nolan's version are mistakenly pegged as rage machines. I don't think that's true though. They're obsessed with justice, which is not the same as vengeance. That's the polar opposite of Snyder's characterization.

Batman Begins actually goes out its way to show that Bruce Wayne has to conquer his rage to become an effective instrument of justice. That's almost the point of the entire first part of the film.
I agree with that. If that's in response to what I said about Batman having rage/empathy issues, I only meant that in regard to Snyder's. With Nolan's Batman, the rage is a show.
Last edited by Sudy on Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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Sudy wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:07 pm
hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:02 pm
Sudy wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:58 pm I dunno man, that level of chaos and depravity is the soul of true evil. It was still a guy in clown makeup, but if I were a kid and it didn't scare me, it would only be because I didn't understand it. [Edit: Which is what you mentioned. But then why show it to someone who can't fully appreciate it?] Maybe it would be different after I knew the ending, and how pathetically he ended.
In the comics, the Joker beats a young teenage boy to death with a baseball bat. He then cripples a young woman and then it's implied he sexually assaulted her.

Nolan's Joker trying to prove people are basically awful sounds downright tame to me in comparison.
I don't think other portrayals are relevant in the context of deciding whether it's right for a younger audience though. Of course I'm not going to recommend an eight-year-old read The Killing Joke lol. Just that on one level, Ledger's joker scared the crap out of me in a way that no comic movie villain had before, or has since. I appreciate that not everyone is going to have the same experience. And this many years later, I probably wouldn't either.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was still responding in the context of your earlier reply.
And Ledger's joker is a much more menacing depiction of evil (or at least chaos) than you're likely to see in most comic book films.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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The problem I've always had with Nolan's version is that Batman's a badass... but he's not Batman. What really defines Batman is that he's: Incredibly rich, a top-tier genius, the world's greatest detective, and one of the world's top martial artists. Nolan's Batman is just rich. Batman was originally inspired by The Shadow, Zorro, and Sherlock Holmes. Cross Nolan's Batman with the Jackman Sherlock Holmes movies and you might have something (and have Bruce come up with at least a few of his own gadgets.)

This is why Batman wins:



Not this awkward Captain Kirk stuff:



I could do another pair of videos comparing how Batman looks at a non-combat problem (again, Holmesian deduction) vs. Nolan's Batman who misses what's right in front of him.

As I've said, Nolan's Batman movies are great movies, they're just not very Batmanny.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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He also made his Batman universe completely self contained, so I don't think the intent was to give us the complete comic book Batman experience . But at the end of the day, not even the comics and none of the other movies dwell that often on the World's Greatest Detective aspect of the character. It's brought out occasionally, but the brunt of the stories are still fist fights on rooftops with mentally deranged cosplay fanatics.

As for the martial arts stuff? I think you're forgetting a substantial portion of Batman Begins as they spent quite a bit of time in the stereotypical hidden Shao Lin temple of doom where people go to become comic book level martial artists. :wink:
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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I always found the Nolan Batman fight scenes very hard to follow due to the framing and camera work, especially in Begins. I mean, if he wanted to portray them as frenetic he accomplished his goal. But I'd rather have them structured like Hong Kong cinema or something.

That one scene you linked definitely looks like garbage. Or at least, sloppy with a lot of weak blows more like a real fight would (which might be the intent).

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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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Meh, the Nolan Batman fight scene looks fine to me. It's a guy in essentially heavy body armor fighting. He's using that to his advantage.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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My 8 year olds would not have understood the deeper meanings in any of the movies. Nolan's Joker would have been terrifying because of the look and the knife work. Bane would have been terrifying for the look, the back breaking, and the bomb at the end. Batman v Superman would have just been amusing comic book violence as, again, the tone was lost.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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stessier wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm My 8 year olds would not have understood the deeper meanings in any of the movies. Nolan's Joker would have been terrifying because of the look and the knife work. Bane would have been terrifying for the look, the back breaking, and the bomb at the end. Batman v Superman would have just been amusing comic book violence as, again, the tone was lost.
So your 8 year old finds clowns, bombs exploding offscreen/without displaying the aftermath and people putting others over their knees to be terrifying; but is amused by giant monsters with spines on their forearms using them to slash people, guys mounting machine guns on their cars to shoot people and someone running around with a branding iron to scar people?

The tone in Snyder's films are decidedly darker (hence the aforementioned R rating on the director's cuts). I can't imagine how the tone would be lost.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:25 pm
As for the martial arts stuff? I think you're forgetting a substantial portion of Batman Begins as they spent quite a bit of time in the stereotypical hidden Shao Lin temple of doom where people go to become comic book level martial artists. :wink:
Oh, I didn't forget. The problem was that once he left, he apparently forgot it all and was usually flailing around. And then there was that weird double punch. I kept expecting Killer Croc to show up in a Gorn costume. Either the fight choreographer phoned it in, Bale (or whoever) couldn't handle the moves, or the suit was too restrictive. That's probably why they filmed it the way they did (one person said it looked like they'd filmed a black sheet in a clothes dryer most of the time.)
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm Meh, the Nolan Batman fight scene looks fine to me. It's a guy in essentially heavy body armor fighting. He's using that to his advantage.
Can you even tell what's going on here? It's so zoomed in. I don't think that was done for storytelling reasons because it was before he was Batman or something. There were other films doing this at the time.


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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:35 pm And then there was that weird double punch.
I saw that as his using the weight of the body armor to lend power to his blow. :think:
Sudy wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:38 pm Can you even tell what's going on here? It's so zoomed in. I don't think that was done for storytelling reasons because it was before he was Batman or something. There were other films doing this at the time.
There were a lot of films doing that years ago. I think it all began with the Bourne films. In any case, it didn't really bother me in those and thus it didn't really bug me in this.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:34 pm
stessier wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm My 8 year olds would not have understood the deeper meanings in any of the movies. Nolan's Joker would have been terrifying because of the look and the knife work. Bane would have been terrifying for the look, the back breaking, and the bomb at the end. Batman v Superman would have just been amusing comic book violence as, again, the tone was lost.
So your 8 year old finds clowns, bombs exploding offscreen/without displaying the aftermath and people putting others over their knees to be terrifying; but is amused by giant monsters with spines on their forearms using them to slash people, guys mounting machine guns on their cars to shoot people and someone running around with a branding iron to scar people?
The Joker is not a clown. The Joker is a real looking person who plays with a knife and talks menacingly and creepily. It doesn't matter what happens off the screen, it's what he looks like while he's on it.

The monster looked fake to them - they are used to video game stuff.
The tone in Snyder's films are decidedly darker. I can't imagine how the tone would be lost.
Heh, it would absolutely be lost.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree then as I can't even begin to fathom a child being more terrified of Nolan's Batman than they would Snyder's version of DC. Supes snaps a guy's neck in Man of Steel, Batman brands and shoots people..and those are supposed to be the heroes. It just goes way beyond what I would think a child who would be frightened by a clown who never uses his knife would find tolerable.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:02 pm For kids and the DC films... Shazam.
I remember a father taking his kids and walking out of Shazam during the boardroom scene with Mark Strong and his deadly sins.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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I commented on that in my initial take on the film after seeing it. That scene just came out of the blue. I still feel like they let Sam Raimi in to guest direct a scene and forgot to check what he did before sending it to print.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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I don't necessarily disagree, though I understand stessier in that Snyder's films still have a more "cartoony" and less realistic air about them. As for Zod getting the ol' snaparooni (and also what happens to Steppenwolf at the end of the Snyder cut of Justice), yeah, it's pretty hardcore--but for any kid raised on Disney, it's also "acceptable" that the main villain should meet a gruesome end. We're not talking like, Dredd levels of violence throughout.

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I love Urban's Dredd. :D
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Yeah, but would you show it to an 8-year-old. 8-)

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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:38 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:35 pm And then there was that weird double punch.
I saw that as his using the weight of the body armor to lend power to his blow. :think:
Except that it wouldn't have any power. He'd be punching from the shoulder with no inertia or power beyond what his arm generated, compared to a regular punch which uses the force of the entire body. And he was in a position to throw a good punch. A martial artist would know that, and so would a fight choreographer. It just looked... silly.

FWIW, the thing that would have scared the crap out of me at 8 would have been the Scarecrow scenes in Batman Begins. In BvS... maybe the capitol explosion or the Knightmare sequence. I'd need to watch it again. But yeah, Doomsday was more like Godzilla. Too obvious to be scary.
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Sudy wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:52 pm Yeah, but would you show it to an 8-year-old. 8-)
I think Stessier would. Still not convinced you wouldn't too. :wink:
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Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:53 pm FWIW, the thing that would have scared the crap out of me at 8 would have been the Scarecrow scenes in Batman Begins.
Maybe show them this first then. :P


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pr0ner wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:46 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:02 pm For kids and the DC films... Shazam.
I remember a father taking his kids and walking out of Shazam during the boardroom scene with Mark Strong and his deadly sins.
Fair point. It's one 30-second sequence out of the film that is totally out of whack with everything else.

Also, thinking about BvS, child me would have been the most upset about Superman dying. That would simply not have been comprehensible with my Superfriends/Chrisotpher Reeve brain.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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I don't like Affleck's Batman at all (though that's partially due to Snyder's insistence on making him act out of character), but I am a big fan of his Bruce Wayne. I think he nailed the older, exasperated, "why am I still doing this shit?" Bruce Wayne. And visually he's probably the closest in appearance to my mind's eye Bruce Wayne than any other actor that has played him.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what Pattinson brings to the role. All the other actors have brought various strengths and weaknesses, but none have nailed both sides of the character except for Keaton. And even Keaton's take on Bruce Wayne was only so good because it added depth and humor to the character, not because it was comic book accurate.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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YellowKing wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:35 pm I'm really looking forward to seeing what Pattinson brings to the role.
Do you think it will be nipples? I'm betting it's nipples.

side note: in looking up the "why" of the nipples on the batsuit, I came across this little bit of information that made me chuckle.
In a big interview piece to promote the film just prior to its release, Jim Carrey – who played The Riddler in the movie – recalled that “it pissed off Bob Kane.” The late Bob Kane, the co-creator (with Bill Finger) of Batman. “Bob Kane was walking around going ‘I never put nipples on a Batsuit. Whoever heard of nipples on the Batsuit?'”
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Hour 1 thoughts

Is this Justice League or a Eurovision audition tape?

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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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When it comes to showing things to kids, ultimately I think it depends on the kid(s). Some kids like (or love) being scared - even if they get terrifying nightmares (ala me when I saw Alien at age 8) and others are terrified of even the most mundane things (my nephew at an age that was frankly, pathetically embarrassing was TERRIFIED of the dream sequence in A Christmas Story where the teacher becomes a (comical) witch).

So what I am saying is, none of the content in any of the Batman movies is as potentially terrifying or traumatic as Alien, but there is certainly dark, scary, and disturbing stuff in the Nolan and Snyder Batman/DC movies. So, I think you should judge for yourself what your kids can handle...
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This is the Internet. You should always rely on anonymous strangers for advice.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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My uncle made me watch Wall Street when I was five and it gave me a warped view of capitalism, art, and relationships that I carry with me to this day.

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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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I had the same problem with Wizard of Oz. I’ve spent my entire life training monkeys to fly and I’ve got nothing to show for it except restraining orders for every zoo on Earth. Goddamn you, movies!

Update: the beginning of hour two just reminded how JL just up and rips off The Lord of the Rings. Also, I laugh every time I realize the kingdom of men, after watching the other factions go to elaborate lengths to protect their boxes, just chuck it in a 2 foot deep hole in some random forest and then f$&k off to get some lunch.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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hepcat wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:37 pm
Update: the beginning of hour two just reminded how JL just up and rips off The Lord of the Rings. Also, I laugh every time I realize the kingdom of men, after watching the other factions go to elaborate lengths to protect their boxes, just chuck it in a 2 foot deep hole in some random forest and then f$&k off to get some lunch.
That scene was hysterical! “Hey, just throw some dirt and twigs on it! Wulfan has a new batch of mead waiting for us!”

The movie itself isn’t um, awful, but it is a bit self indulgent. And I’m only up to hour 3. I figure I’ll finish it eventually. The 4:3 ratio was watchable but silly. Eventually, you got used to it and it didn’t really bug me after a while.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but just in case...

Has anyone found a way to stop HBO Max from auto-playing the next episode of something. My internet bill went up $50 last month since HBO was just continuously playing on the two tv's my kids use.

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I'm in the last hour (I think/hope) of the Snyder Justice League. It is:

longer

more coherent

pretty dull

frequently dumb
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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AWS260 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:48 pm I'm in the last hour (I think/hope) of the Snyder Justice League.
I was not in the last hour.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

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:lol:
dobberhd wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:39 pm Has anyone found a way to stop HBO Max from auto-playing the next episode of something. My internet bill went up $50 last month since HBO was just continuously playing on the two tv's my kids use.

Dumb design.
Do you have a data cap with your ISP or something? I checked the help page for hbo max and it says it can’t be disabled. I’d just take it off those two tv’s and change the password so they can’t reinstall it.

As for JL, I finished it last night. I have to say, the tacked on bit with the joker was painfully awful. It was just gratuitous and pointless.

Other than that, I have to agree with pretty much everyone else. It isn’t a terrible movie, but it’s not a very good one either. It really is the very definition of self indulgent. Also, the posing is just so blatant. Marvel knows enough to make fun of it, or keep it to a minimum. But Snyder isn’t capable of that level of restraint.

And that ultimately is why the film fails for me. The lack of restraint. If he’d dialed it all back a few notches...all the angst, the melancholy, the drama, the 1248 slow mo walking scenes set to slowed down cover songs, it might have worked. At its heart, it understands what Darkseid is, and it comes pretty close to getting Apokolips down (from the brief moments we see it*), but if Snyder had just had the restraint necessary to focus on his story and his characters instead of the frenetic glut of side stories and action scenes for the sake of an action scene, it might be a halfway decent DC film.

Oh, and I really, really hate their Flash. The actor mugs for the camera so much I thought I was watching a high school play whenever he showed up. That actor was great in We Need to Talk About Kevin, but he obviously doesn’t have the depth needed to do anything that doesn’t require him to glare and act menacing.

*extra points for including Granny Goodness. I was NOT expecting that.
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Blackhawk
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

Post by Blackhawk »

When Marvel does posing they do it live in the middle of an establishing shot where the 'pose' moment comes while the camera pans (a couple of times at the end of Endgame, for instance.) It makes it feel natural, unlike, say, posing on a hill or 'power walking' (the MCU only power walks a few times, and half of them are intentional parodies.) There are a couple of times they actually stop the camera for a 'pose' that looks like a comic book cover, but they do it in a way that makes you cheer rather than roll your eyes. They're dynamic and written into the action rather than feeling staged.

I love DC. I really do. I was a Superfriends kid who was just old enough to be excited when Superman: The Movie came out (it was the first movie I ever asked to go see.) That's stuck with me, that love for the characters. But Marvel has really stomped DC when it comes to film. In fact, DC has been chasing Marvel around for a while now, trying to catch up to their good ideas.

Although DC has generally done better on video games.
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Re: [Streaming] HBO Max

Post by hepcat »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:29 pm But Marvel has really stomped DC when it comes to film. In fact, DC has been chasing Marvel around for a while now, trying to catch up to their good ideas.

Although DC has generally done better on video games.
DC is still light years ahead of them in animated films and tv shows though. Another reason they should invite Bruce Timm into that world to give them ideas. Timm has built an amazing stable of talent that has produced fantastic films based off some truly iconic storylines from the comics. Why they don’t take that approach with the live action division is beyond me.
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