Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:24 am**

Acknowledging your enemy's achievements does not diminish you or endorse your enemy. So...stopped clock, blind squirrel...trump's administration must've gotten at least some things right. I realize this thread won't reach two pages, but try to name one. If you like, you can define it as "things Biden won't undo (or can build upon)."

I'll toss out two: Convincing (bullying) NATO to pay more toward defense, and playing hardball with China on trade.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:38 am**

He didn't start any wars. Bad as he was, he has definitely been the President least inclined to military action that we've had in a long time.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:56 am**

He assassinated an Iranian general. It wasn’t for lack of trying.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:58 am**

Not treating the Palestinian-Israeli conflict isn't the start and end of everything in the middle east, as previous administrations had, thus allowing his administration to successfully pursue several agreements in the region. And finally moving the US embassy that previous presidents repeatedly promised to move, but "experts" claimed would cause the region to go to hell in a hand basket. Possibly also killing Solemani, although the Pandemic may have obscured the potential consequences of it.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:14 am**

He postulated a corollary to Archimedes' Law:

Give me enough paper towels, and I can absorb a hurricane.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:31 am**

All of his proposed achievements so far are in foreign policy. Is that what most needed disruption?

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:36 am**

Domestic:

"This was the most secure election in American history..." [FULL STOP]

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:25 am**

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:31 am All of his proposed achievements so far are in foreign policy. Is that what most needed disruption?

There was plenty of bad foreign policy decisions that far outweigh the good he's done (and, indeed, the way he achieved some of those achievements. I don't think that getting Europe to pay more for NATO was at all worth alienating allies and the risks of suggesting that we wouldn't come to the defense of our allies.).

So maybe there did need to be some disruption in some foreign policy, but not in such a ham-fisted way.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:28 am**

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:24 am ...and playing hardball with China on trade.

This comment is disputed.

China just formed a 15 country free trade agreement, including Japan and South Korea. The US is excluded.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:34 am**

Also, if we're defining it as things Biden won't undo, my understanding is there are some sections of the tax cut that are likely to be kept by Biden. Although I don't know how much Trump played in that.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:31 am**

There was a 9/11 compensation fund that passed Congress on his watch. I'm not sure of the exact details, but remember John Stewart's speech that the administration has actually done well in that area and he had to give credit where credit was due.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:52 am**

He signed the criminal reform bill, which I found unexpected and certainly positive.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:26 am**

stessier wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:31 am There was a 9/11 compensation fund that passed Congress on his watch. I'm not sure of the exact details, but remember John Stewart's speech that the administration has actually done well in that area and he had to give credit where credit was due.

Which he then turned right around and raided.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:15 am**

Brian wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:26 am
stessier wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:31 am There was a 9/11 compensation fund that passed Congress on his watch. I'm not sure of the exact details, but remember John Stewart's speech that the administration has actually done well in that area and he had to give credit where credit was due.
Which he then turned right around and raided.

The thread title does note "more or less".

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:33 am**

gbasden wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:52 am He signed the criminal reform bill, which I found unexpected and certainly positive.

I remember this too.
Honestly feels like they accidentally let this one slip in.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:29 am**

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:31 am All of his proposed achievements so far are in foreign policy. Is that what most needed disruption?

It's just a reflection of where most of a President's power actually is. The President has broad discretion and vast power when it comes to foreign policy - but at least in theory, it's Congress that's supposed to deal with domestic affairs, so the President is mostly limited to working through appointees. That's still pretty potent if you can get top talent to work for you, but Trump has...struggled...in that department.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:30 am**

I guess humiliating Jeff Sessions was a good thing. That guy's an asshole.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:44 am**

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:24 amI'll toss out two: Convincing (bullying) NATO to pay more toward defense

This is touted but the effect was a splash. Overall spending across all others increased 51B over 2016 and ours increased....66B alone. He bullied them into throwing quarters into the pile. The trade off was to scared by making them realize that we weren't a stable partner. Not a win.

and playing hardball with China on trade.

Sure we needed to play hardball but the way he did it was disruptive in a destructive way. There isn't much evidence it helped and we were already playing hardball - TPP would have partially isolated China from all the SE Asia economies. Clinton paid lip service to backing out but she would have gone forward and it would have likely been effective long-term. Even if she did back out any competent leader would have done anything else. China made all sorts of "agreements" but didn't hold up their end. China essentially hunkered down to outwait us. Not a win.

Jaymann wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:28 am
Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:24 am ...and playing hardball with China on trade.
This comment is disputed.

China just formed a 15 country free trade agreement, including Japan and South Korea. The US is excluded.

Exactly. They took the ball and formed their own TPP. China was cheering us backing out of TPP.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:48 am**

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:30 am I guess humiliating Jeff Sessions was a good thing. That guy's an asshole.

And yet he's somehow the guy coming out of the administration with the most integrity.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:48 am**

malchior wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:44 am
and playing hardball with China on trade.
Sure we needed to play hardball but the way he did it was disruptive in a destructive way. There isn't much evidence it helped and we were already playing hardball - TPP would have partially isolated China from all the SE Asia economies. Clinton paid lip service to backing out but she would have gone forward and it would have likely been effective long-term. Even if she did back out any competent leader would have done anything else. China made all sorts of "agreements" but didn't hold up their end. China essentially hunkered down to outwait us. Not a win.

This was my thought as well. It was positive in the sense that they recognized "hey, maybe we should actually do something about trade with China", but the actual execution was bungled at every possible stage and has left the US in a far worse spot overall.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:53 am**

The Middle East deals are maybe the only spot I've give them but they were accomplished because the middle east is so corrupt and transactional. Essentially they needed a corrupt US leader to play ball with. UAE got a huge military package by agreeing to cooperate with Israel and Saudi Arabia to offset Iran. That is about the only good I've give them personally but it was done...corruptly which I guess we'll see how that works out long-term. That Trumps only real accomplishment was the fruits of greasing palms is on brand but not a sustainable model.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:54 am**

God forbid he sees this thread and uses it to gloat.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:39 am**

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:30 am I guess humiliating Jeff Sessions was a good thing. That guy's an asshole.

Also (at various times) Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham, Rand Paul, etc.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:53 am**

Defiant wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:39 am
Holman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:30 am I guess humiliating Jeff Sessions was a good thing. That guy's an asshole.
Also (at various times) Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham, Rand Paul, etc.

I don't know. It's kind of like celebrating someone who blows up a building and happens to kill a few serial killers along with the hundreds of innocents.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:05 pm**

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:48 am
malchior wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:44 am
and playing hardball with China on trade.
Sure we needed to play hardball but the way he did it was disruptive in a destructive way. There isn't much evidence it helped and we were already playing hardball - TPP would have partially isolated China from all the SE Asia economies. Clinton paid lip service to backing out but she would have gone forward and it would have likely been effective long-term. Even if she did back out any competent leader would have done anything else. China made all sorts of "agreements" but didn't hold up their end. China essentially hunkered down to outwait us. Not a win.

This was my thought as well. It was positive in the sense that they recognized "hey, maybe we should actually do something about trade with China", but the actual execution was bungled at every possible stage and has left the US in a far worse spot overall.

Yup, that was what I had in mind. Despite the clumsy trade war and all those tariffs that we've paid, the issue of IP theft is at least out in the open now, and is going to have to be addressed as part of re-normalization.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:29 pm**

One good thing he did - while he may be the true teflon Don, he managed to shine a spotlight on dozens of terrible people who had placed themselves adjacent to him, which were then picked off by justice, one by one. Not only that, but lots of terrible people let their terrible show through in such a way as to taint their previously shiny facades. He managed to stay on his feet, but he brought a lot of bad people down with him.

And this one is conditional, based on what we do with it: The biggest liar that we've ever had in that office was the only one who was able to really show us the truth. To show us the truth about how corrupt our system has become, to show us the truth about how deep the rot in our society has gotten, to show us in all our inglorious, flawed ugliness. Had he not called all of the lurkers out of the shadows, it would have continued unseen and unchecked.

If we can take that truth and find a way to address it, Trump could very well be the thing that saves us. Isn't that ironic? Alanis?

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:45 pm**

I remember there were a few things but I be damned if I can remember what they were.

I would concur that I appreciate Trump not being a globalist hawk, though I'm not smart enough to how his method will cause or prevent other events.
I also appreciate at least having the conversation to more boldly protect IP.

It's really hard to remember specifics because he started off right on so many things and then after getting his soundbite, poof, like using the weight of the US market to bring prescription drug costs under control. His presidency is littered with examples like that.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:03 pm**

When he abandoned the Kurds he succeeded in converting the military vote to the Democrats.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:06 pm**

Jaymann wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:03 pm When he abandoned the Kurds he succeeded in converting the military vote to the Democrats.

I wouldn't go quite that far.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:33 pm**

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:29 pm One good thing he did - while he may be the true teflon Don, he managed to shine a spotlight on dozens of terrible people who had placed themselves adjacent to him, which were then picked off by justice, one by one. Not only that, but lots of terrible people let their terrible show through in such a way as to taint their previously shiny facades. He managed to stay on his feet, but he brought a lot of bad people down with him.

And this one is conditional, based on what we do with it: The biggest liar that we've ever had in that office was the only one who was able to really show us the truth. To show us the truth about how corrupt our system has become, to show us the truth about how deep the rot in our society has gotten, to show us in all our inglorious, flawed ugliness. Had he not called all of the lurkers out of the shadows, it would have continued unseen and unchecked.

If we can take that truth and find a way to address it, Trump could very well be the thing that saves us. Isn't that ironic? Alanis?

It's like acid rain on your wedding day.

But if Trump's violations of norms cause us to codify norms into law, he's every bit as virtuous as the child pornographers who taught us that we needed laws for child porn.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:41 pm**

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:24 am I'll toss out two: Convincing (bullying) NATO to pay more toward defense, and playing hardball with China on trade.

So our allies hate us, and they have to pay more for no other reason than his actions created an unstable situation. His hardball with China cost my state its largest customer for its largest crop. I fail to see how this is a win.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:49 pm**

Jaymann wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:03 pm When he abandoned the Kurds he succeeded in converting the military vote to the Democrats.

A friend of mine who was a first Gulf War vet voted for Trump first time, and has been spending the past few years in atonement. This included an interview in Time Magazine, numerous newspaper, website, magazine and TV interviews and I think even a billboard. He will tell everyone who will listen the atrocities upon our military by the Trump administration -- and he has a lot of cred so people listen.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:06 pm**

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:24 am Acknowledging your enemy's achievements does not diminish you or endorse your enemy. So...stopped clock, blind squirrel...trump's administration must've gotten at least some things right. I realize this thread won't reach two pages, but try to name one. If you like, you can define it as "things Biden won't undo (or can build upon)."

I'll toss out two: Convincing (bullying) NATO to pay more toward defense, and playing hardball with China on trade.

I understand the impetus behind the OP. I grew up in a time when people said of Nixon, "Sure, he was dishonest to the core, but at least he forwarded Detente and supported some progress in civil rights. (etc)"

Trump's balance sheet should be far less generous. Any progress he achieved was accidental and flawed, while everything he intentionally set out to do did damage to the nation and the world.

There should never be any treating of him as a flawed but sincere opponent. He's a criminal who abused the power he was given, and he kept at it until the very end. He's doing it right now.

Posted: **Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:40 pm**

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:06 pmThere should never be any treating of him as a flawed but sincere opponent. He's a criminal who abused the power he was given, and he kept at it until the very end. He's doing it right now.

This. I literally feel he has done nothing good since anything he might have achieve was done in such a horrid manner that it counters any possible good. The ends does not justify the means. I really feel that to have any healing in our nation he needs to be brought before the courts to face judgement for all of his crimes. They need to lay out the evidence in such a way that there can be no question he deserves any sentence they hand down and he needs to serve every second of it isolated from all media as a danger to the free world.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:03 am**

Jeff V wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:41 pm
Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:24 am I'll toss out two: Convincing (bullying) NATO to pay more toward defense, and playing hardball with China on trade.
So our allies hate us, and they have to pay more for no other reason than his actions created an unstable situation. His hardball with China cost my state its largest customer for its largest crop. I fail to see how this is a win.

Those were just off the top of my head, so I won't defend them. I could weave some words but my heart isn't in it. You win the thread!

Remus West wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:40 pm
Holman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:06 pmThere should never be any treating of him as a flawed but sincere opponent. He's a criminal who abused the power he was given, and he kept at it until the very end. He's doing it right now.
This. I literally feel he has done nothing good since anything he might have achieve was done in such a horrid manner that it counters any possible good. The ends does not justify the means. I really feel that to have any healing in our nation he needs to be brought before the courts to face judgement for all of his crimes. They need to lay out the evidence in such a way that there can be no question he deserves any sentence they hand down and he needs to serve every second of it isolated from all media as a danger to the free world.

Agree with both posts. Now you have to fight JeffV for the thread.

Point was supposed to be that trump is going to leave behind some changes for the better that Biden won't have to undo. Regardless of how they happened, what are they?

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:14 am**

Trump did manage to bring home some US troops. Now in a bizarre twist, McConnell, while praising Trump for doing so, then says leave the troops in Afghanistan. Ol' turtle neck doesn't give a rat's ass about terrorists, so what's his game? Military contracts?

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:25 am**

Did he bring them HOME, or were they redeployed in the region? Friendly bases might count as "home," but it's not like they're all going to be sharing covid at the Thanksgiving table.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:53 am**

More or less.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:05 am**

There is now no sincere argument about who the worst president of the United States ever was. He's clearly number 1.

Yeah, that's about all I got.

Posted: **Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:53 am**

He wasn't the president we needed. He was the president we deserved.

Octopus Overlords

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