Student Loan Debt Forgiveness

[Smoove_B]

I think what keeps being glossed over is that it should be a realistic, individual, informed decision. Instead, it feels like it's being *hammered* that the only reasonable path is a 4-year degree that will likely put someone in an unreasonable debt situation afterwards.

A 4 year program upon graduation of H.S. is not a one-size-fits-all solution. Some 18 year olds are academically prepared for college but emotionally unprepared. Some can emotionally handle it but their academic skills are deficient. The worst are those that have neither the academics or the maturity and telling that cohort a 4-year degree in a residential college program is their only option is a recipe for disaster.

Part of the "college experience" is emotional growth. If you can do that while living at home with your parents or guardians? Terrific. If you need to live elsewhere? Also terrific, but more expensive.

Where this gets complicated is for groups of 1st generation students that are trying to navigate higher education because for them it likely is a realistic path for long-term success. And this is also why debt forgiveness shouldn't be completely discarded because there are absolutely groups of students that are going to be on better trajectories over the course of 40+ years based on a college degree. Having them taking on mountains of debt to do that is questionable (imho) and should not be considered in the same sentence as a middle or upper-class family that pressures their child to attend a 4 year school because of the name recognition.

Again, as someone that has been part of the sausage making process for 15+ years at this point (at the lowest level possible), I have legitimately seen so much. I don't know if it's ego (parents, student) that has people believing every 18 year old is ready and capable for the rigors of college, but it's just not true. And in full disclosure, I say all this as someone that was absolutely not ready for a 4-year residential academic experience at the age of 18.

[Carpet_pissr]

This aligns with my belief that you think education is about procuring facts, and in the past you've said those facts are about acquiring gainful employment.

I think education is about education. I don't think that education is about frat parties. I think that frat parties are fun. I just don't think that it's my responsibility to subsidize making it easier for someone to go to them because they learn social skills there.

But practically speaking, you misunderstand me. I am not saying that there is no value to an individual to obtain the "college experience". I'm just saying that if that is what you are after, you should be the one to pay for it - not me.

My son wasn't really interested in that, so he has almost no debt. My daughter is really interested in that, and so her journey will be about four times as expensive, and she will have a lot more debt. That's on her/me, not the US taxpayer.

Consider the argument for the college experience (see Goo’s post above), excluding the frat parties and sports team.

We’re kind of also skirting around the very big difference between degrees and post-college employment: if your expected career path requires an engineering degree, fine…just getting that paper is arguably more crucial than say someone who pursues a liberal arts BA.

So it’s easier to point to a future goal like ‘I want to have an engineering degree from X school’ and almost dismiss ‘the experience’.

[Octavious]

Again, as someone that has been part of the sausage making process for 15+ years at this point (at the lowest level possible), I have legitimately seen so much. I don't know if it's ego (parents, student) that has people believing every 18 year old is ready and capable for the rigors of college, but it's just not true. And in full disclosure, I say all this as someone that was absolutely not ready for a 4-year residential academic experience at the age of 18.

This part does worry me, but how do you really know until you let them try? Parenting is dumb. My daughter has a panic attack going to a register.

[Smoove_B]

I think parents know the answer but don't want to feel the shame or embarrassment associated with having to tell friends, extended family, etc... that their child is doing [X] instead of [X^10]. And again, it's perceived shame or embarrassment over being judged.

I have extended family in this exact situation. They know their one child is 100% ready for a residential 4-year degree program; this person is mature and academically sound. On the other hand, their other child is 100% not ready (emotionally) for a residential 4-year program and if they attempt to go that route, they're not going to support it. I have a 1000 foot view of the situation, but I think they've sized it up correctly.

You don't need to throw an 18 year old into the deep end to (1) help them figure out if they're ready or (2) encourage them to survive. I have lost track of the number of early 20-somethings that have told me they were so glad they attended a 2 year program first as it really helped them get sorted. From my limited perspective, these individuals have overwhelmingly been "better" (academically, maturity) than so many in their cohort.

And all this goes back to the idea of that same person (the 18 year old) taking out insane debt. Or a parent/guardian floating it; it's hard to be objective but the literal cost for failure is depressing.

[RunningMn9]

I think you posted this at about the same time I posted above. The "college experience" we're talking about isn't frat parties.

No, but the “college experience” you are talking about isn’t unique to college either. It’s called growing up. People that had college experiences think it’s the only and best way to get it. People that didn’t think that it’s not necessary.

Historically, we obviously know that the “college experience” isn’t some critical element to growing up, as it was a relatively rare experience until relatively recently.

Again, none of this matters. I don’t care that people want it. I want it for them. I just want them to bear the cost of it, not me.

[RunningMn9]

That's what cracks me up. We're perfectly fine cutting huge breaks for rich people, but hand out 10K and the world explodes. That doesn't even cover room and board for one year at most schools.

Just to clarify - I don’t have any issue with the notion of providing relief. My main concern is the extent of that relief, and the idea that someone that incurs $100+K debt had no other options and so we should deal with the problem at that scale too.

[Isgrimnur]

That's what cracks me up. We're perfectly fine cutting huge breaks for rich people, but hand out 10K and the world explodes. That doesn't even cover room and board for one year at most schools.

Just to clarify - I don’t have any issue with the notion of providing relief. My main concern is the extent of that relief, and the idea that someone that incurs $100+K debt had no other options and so we should deal with the problem at that scale too.

That should absolutely be addressed. And it should be addressed by the people charging those amounts for nonviable career paths. If it's tuition and fees. If 75% of that is room and board in NYC, that's a different problem.

[GreenGoo]

I think you posted this at about the same time I posted above. The "college experience" we're talking about isn't frat parties.

No, but the “college experience” you are talking about isn’t unique to college either. It’s called growing up.

There's more going on here than "growing up". Growing up happens whether you want it to or not.

It's clear you don't get it because every time you reference it you talk about drinking or whatever you think "growing up" means.

We all pay for things we don't want. How much military is enough military to meet security and global goals? Maybe take a sliver of a sliver of that budget to directly help citizens who are the future of your country?

I mean, I get it, taxes. But Jesus Christ.

Why have a government if you're opposed to having it help people?

[Octavious]

That's what cracks me up. We're perfectly fine cutting huge breaks for rich people, but hand out 10K and the world explodes. That doesn't even cover room and board for one year at most schools.

Just to clarify - I don’t have any issue with the notion of providing relief. My main concern is the extent of that relief, and the idea that someone that incurs $100+K debt had no other options and so we should deal with the problem at that scale too.

Ya I just think there should be an option for public colleges where it's affordable for in state people. It shouldn't cost 120k to stay on campus at Rutgers that's just insane. Private schools can do whatever they heck they want and I don't feel bad for anyone dumping a gazillion dollars on that. As that dick Malchior said that's more of a NJ problem. NY I wouldn't even be complaining there are reasonable options there as there are in a lot of other states.

[Smoove_B]

Ya I just think there should be an option for public colleges where it's affordable for in state people. It shouldn't cost 120k to stay on campus at Rutgers that's just insane. Private schools can do whatever they heck they want and I don't feel bad for anyone dumping a gazillion dollars on that. As that dick Malchior said that's more of a NJ problem. NY I wouldn't even be complaining there are reasonable options there as there are in a lot of other states.

That's part of the reason the STARS program exists (to make public college more affordable). Calculate out what renting a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment would be in our area and now you have the "room and board" element that RU is charging. The other thing that I think people out of the higher education loop don't fully grasp is how much college campuses have changed in 30+ years. The amenities colleges provide to encourage students to live on campus is insane (movie theaters, restaurants, gyms, etc...). In some ways they have created a self-fulfilling cost snowball where they buy real estate, invest in *stuff* unrelated to actual education and now need to raise prices of tuition to justify owning and offering things. It's the same reason they don't want students online anymore and are now trying to swing the pendulum back to in-person classes as much as possible. Like the modern workplace, they're refusing to learn the lessons of the last 3 years and/or are so in over their heads on real estate properties, they need to do everything possible to keep students on campus.

Our state is definitely unique for higher education issues, but costs are out of control everywhere.

[Carpet_pissr]

That should absolutely be addressed. And it should be addressed by the people charging those amounts for nonviable career paths. If it's tuition and fees. If 75% of that is room and board in NYC, that's a different problem.

This. I think.

I’m sure it’s been addressed somewhere in the thread, but it feels like it’s been a while since any responsibility for the ones charging the exorbitant rates has been mentioned.

It’s the student’s fault for agreeing to the $100K loan, or for pursuing a 4 year college that charges that.

It’s the parents’ fault for not educating the student better about…? Options? Fiscal responsibility? Effect of long term debt?

It’s the government’s fault for trying to help bail out said indebted students.

Just hate to see the universities not getting their fair share of blame in all this. They are the ones charging $850 or whatever for epi-pens.

Not a great analogy, but charging exorbitant rates ‘because they can’.

[Zarathud]

Colleges are trying to attract students. Rather than investing only in education, they’re trying to attract students on experience — and parents on safety from doing it all on campus. The theory is if you loved campus life, you’ll rate the school higher now and give back more later.

Students want more too. And Congress passed laws making credit easy — and not forcing colleges to give more of the endowment as scholarships. Banks profit more from loans, too.

The loop pushes costs to unsustainable levels — for something that is needed to become middle class. But doesn’t guarantee it.

[RunningMn9]

it's clear you don't get it because every time you reference it you talk about drinking or whatever you think "growing up" means.

I don’t agree with you. That’s not evidence of me “not getting it”. If you think it is, you can pound sand and ignore me. I’m not even a little bit interested in wasting my time with that.

In 1960, less than 8% of the population were college graduates. Whatever you think “growing up” means, it’s pretty goddamn clear that college isn’t the only way to achieve it. And you know that.

It wasn’t the only way to achieve it, it’s still not the only way to achieve it. And I don’t even know that it’s the best way to achieve that. It’s *a* way to achieve it. And if it’s the way you and yours want to achieve it - that’s cool. But you should pay for it. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

Octavious - I absolutely agree that there should be good in-state options that aren’t $120K at Rutgers. That’s insane. The fix for that isn’t to forgive the loans (that will continue to make the problem worse). Something has to cause that bubble to burst, and making sure that everyone involved gets paid by the US taxpayer ain’t it.

[Octavious]

Ya I just think there should be an option for public colleges where it's affordable for in state people. It shouldn't cost 120k to stay on campus at Rutgers that's just insane. Private schools can do whatever they heck they want and I don't feel bad for anyone dumping a gazillion dollars on that. As that dick Malchior said that's more of a NJ problem. NY I wouldn't even be complaining there are reasonable options there as there are in a lot of other states.

That's part of the reason the STARS program exists (to make public college more affordable). Calculate out what renting a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment would be in our area and now you have the "room and board" element that RU is charging. The other thing that I think people out of the higher education loop don't fully grasp is how much college campuses have changed in 30+ years. The amenities colleges provide to encourage students to live on campus is insane (movie theaters, restaurants, gyms, etc...). In some ways they have created a self-fulfilling cost snowball where they buy real estate, invest in *stuff* unrelated to actual education and now need to raise prices of tuition to justify owning and offering things. It's the same reason they don't want students online anymore and are now trying to swing the pendulum back to in-person classes as much as possible. Like the modern workplace, they're refusing to learn the lessons of the last 3 years and/or are so in over their heads on real estate properties, they need to do everything possible to keep students on campus.

Our state is definitely unique for higher education issues, but costs are out of control everywhere.

Ya well when I look at NY I would have easily been able to find something that wouldn't shake out to 120k. We seem to be on the higher end of broken (like most things.)

[RunningMn9]

Ya well when I look at NY I would have easily been able to find something that wouldn't shake out to 120k. We seem to be on the higher end of broken (like most things.)

Just a note for comparison, probably the flagship of the state university system in NY is the University of Buffalo. Four years on campus at the in-state rate costs about 2/3rds of what Rutgers costs.

Their out-of-state price is insane though, at $160K. But still more affordable than the $192K Rutgers would cost out-of-state.

Just some other notes since I was looking. The four years of tuition at Rutgers Engineering when I went there came to a grand total of about $14K, for all four years combined. Adjusted for inflation, that would be about $30K in today’s dollars. Which is a lot less than the $65K it would actually cost today. Maybe they learn how to grow up better today though, so all that extra cost is worth it. I don’t know.

[Octavious]

Ya sucks. It's going to be super fun having her apply to schools and then say no, but we are very open about costs and owing 120k isn't an option. I figure we can maybe swing to pay 12k a year while she's in school if I stay in my hut. So I have that going for me.

[Kurth]

it's clear you don't get it because every time you reference it you talk about drinking or whatever you think "growing up" means.

I don’t agree with you. That’s not evidence of me “not getting it”. If you think it is, you can pound sand and ignore me. I’m not even a little bit interested in wasting my time with that.

In 1960, less than 8% of the population were college graduates. Whatever you think “growing up” means, it’s pretty goddamn clear that college isn’t the only way to achieve it. And you know that.

It wasn’t the only way to achieve it, it’s still not the only way to achieve it. And I don’t even know that it’s the best way to achieve that. It’s *a* way to achieve it. And if it’s the way you and yours want to achieve it - that’s cool. But you should pay for it. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

Octavious - I absolutely agree that there should be good in-state options that aren’t $120K at Rutgers. That’s insane. The fix for that isn’t to forgive the loans (that will continue to make the problem worse). Something has to cause that bubble to burst, and making sure that everyone involved gets paid by the US taxpayer ain’t it.

Again, I get the position that people should bear the costs for the things they value. I don't understand what appears to be a general view that the "college experience" isn't all that important.

I think your historical call outs miss the mark. Of course, you're right that in 1960, a relatively small minority of the population were college graduates. But this isn't 1960, and a lot of things have changed that, from my perspective, do much to increase the value and importance of a college experience for more of the population. The world in 1960 was far less connected and much, much smaller than today. In 1960, there was no internet. Far less travel. Ability to relocate wasn't all that important for job prospects. Far more people in 1960 ended up settling and living their lives in the same town they grew up in. They could lead productive, non-toxic lives without ever really being forced to confront opposing views.

Things today are far less insular, and the need for citizens to be prepared to encounter and deal with varying points of view and perspectives matters so much more.

You're right that college isn't the only way to get after that. But it's a really, really good way. College students are still young enough that there's more of a chance their views haven't ossified. They're also encountering each other and coming to grips with their differences in an environment that is often less pressure-filled than the workplace.

In the end, I don't think we're at odds on the ideal course: College should be more affordable so people can make that choice if it's right for them and not be saddled with excessive debt. I just think you're undervaluing the number of people for whom that choice is a good one.

[RunningMn9]

I don’t think the college experience is as unique or valuable as others feel. I think it’s largely inevitable, and I think that history bears it out, and I think that kids that don’t go to college make their way into the world too.

I think that people attach as much value to it as they do because it the marketing pitch from colleges use that to justify their absurd cost.

And even saying that, I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t have value - I’m just saying that it’s not worth what colleges are charging.

[RunningMn9]

I don’t think the college experience is as unique or valuable as others feel. I think it’s largely inevitable, and I think that history bears it out, and I think that kids that don’t go to college make their way into the world too.

I think that people attach as much value to it as they do because it the marketing pitch from colleges use that to justify their absurd cost.

And even saying that, I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t have value - I’m just saying that it’s not worth what colleges are charging.

And the idea that it’s the *purpose* of going to college, that’s beyond insane to me.

[malchior]

I don’t think the college experience is as unique or valuable as others feel. I think it’s largely inevitable, and I think that history bears it out, and I think that kids that don’t go to college make their way into the world too.

I think that people attach as much value to it as they do because it the marketing pitch from colleges use that to justify their absurd cost.

And even saying that, I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t have value - I’m just saying that it’s not worth what colleges are charging.

The lifetime income difference between college and not college in the United States strongly suggests otherwise. It's fair to argue in some cases the value isn't right but in general a college education multiplies out to be worth a lot more than they charge.

[dbt1949]

When I was of the age (in the 60s) I went into the service and learned a trade. Granted the army just showed me how to shoot people but in the air force I worked on B-52s and learned electronic repair. After I got out I found that military experience was preferable to college.
A fried of mine (after getting out of the army) started work for Mattel as a peasant. He took that job to become one the vice presidents of Hasbro or Toys are US.(I foget which)
Of course this is just anecdotal and a long time ago but I believe college is highly over rated.
But I'm olde and senile.

[RunningMn9]

When I was of the age (in the 60s) I went into the service and learned a trade. Granted the army just showed me how to shoot people but in the air force I worked on B-52s and learned electronic repair. After I got out I found that military experience was preferable to college.
A fried of mine (after getting out of the army) started work for Mattel as a peasant. He took that job to become one the vice presidents of Hasbro or Toys are US.(I foget which)
Of course this is just anecdotal and a long time ago but I believe college is highly over rated.
But I'm olde and senile.

You haven’t been conditioned to believe that it’s essential. Certainly it’s essential for some things. Certainly some kids will do better in a college environment than other alternatives. What matters is what are your goals.

To be an electrical engineer? Not a lot of leeway there. Don’t know yet? A LOT of leeway.

[RunningMn9]

I’d be real curious to see the methodology on the lifetime earnings analysis, and whether it adjusts for actually using the college degree that you obtained, versus how much that stat is skewed by very high reward degrees that are only obtained through a college education.

[Isgrimnur]

I’d be real curious to see the methodology on the lifetime earnings analysis, and whether it adjusts for actually using the college degree that you obtained, versus how much that stat is skewed by very high reward degrees that are only obtained through a college education.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/researc ... nings.html

[RunningMn9]

Interesting data, although not really what I was concerned with. Do they break that data down by major?

There’s a specific reason I’m asking that, as I suspect the actual answer gets back to my belief that the ONLY reason to pursue a college degree is it’s utility in obtaining a job/career - and not this coming of age business.

The average impact of a college degree is not very informative if there is a wide variance based on the kind of degree. What is the average lifetime earnings bump of a Russian lit degree?

[RunningMn9]

Also, that data is 20 years old, and I’d also be curious how that may have changed (if at all, and in which direction).

[Kraken]

Maybe an irrelevant tangent, but I just got off a 90-minute Zoom session with my dearest friends, all of whom I lived with and/or worked with at some point in college. We still hook up virtually every 4-6 weeks and are kicking around the idea of taking a vacation together in August.

College is as much about making connections, professional and otherwise, as it is about earning a credential. If you're paying the big bux for a degree at an elite college, some of the kids you rub elbows with there are going to be your generation's movers and shakers. Even at a run-of-the-mill state school, such as my alma mater, you're building personal and professional relationships with people who have bright futures. That's invaluable in the literal sense of the word.

Biden wants to forgive $20k of debt for some borrowers and only $10k for others, right? In the loan forgiveness context, it doesn't matter if you went into debt for $25k or $150k; Joe Taxpayer isn't going to pay off all your loans. I think maybe that detail gets overlooked in this discussion.

[Isgrimnur]

Interesting data, although not really what I was concerned with. Do they break that data down by major?

There’s a specific reason I’m asking that, as I suspect the actual answer gets back to my belief that the ONLY reason to pursue a college degree is it’s utility in obtaining a job/career - and not this coming of age business.

The average impact of a college degree is not very informative if there is a wide variance based on the kind of degree. What is the average lifetime earnings bump of a Russian lit degree?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4534330/

[noxiousdog]

I don’t think the college experience is as unique or valuable as others feel. I think it’s largely inevitable, and I think that history bears it out, and I think that kids that don’t go to college make their way into the world too.

I think that people attach as much value to it as they do because it the marketing pitch from colleges use that to justify their absurd cost.

And even saying that, I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t have value - I’m just saying that it’s not worth what colleges are charging.

The lifetime income difference between college and not college in the United States strongly suggests otherwise. It's fair to argue in some cases the value isn't right but in general a college education multiplies out to be worth a lot more than they charge.

A college degree doesn't require 4 years of living on campus.

In addition, there' are a ton of technical fields (electricians, plumbers, nurses, etc) that cost far less than college degrees but often pay more.

But in general, yes, there needs to be some form of subsidy. My favorite idea is significant community service like the military or Americorp.

[GreenGoo]

While I think Nox's view is a little too simplistic, I do like that he outlines a clear path to a degree that won't bankrupt most people. I have no idea if what he says is viable, but it sounds viable, and that's good enough for me. This is not the first discussion he's mentioned it.

Rmn9 continues to discuss employment opportunities, so I'll pound sand as he suggests.

[LawBeefaroni]

I was sitting in the parking lot next to the Northwestern Commencement speech today at Ryan Field (long, dumb story). A speaker, I think the university president, said, "You now have the most valuable asset you will ever own: a college degree!"

I mean with that kind of valuation, no loan is too much, is it?

[Isgrimnur]

Depends on the break-even timeline.

[RunningMn9]

I was sitting in the parking lot next to the Northwestern Commencement speech today at Ryan Field (long, dumb story). A speaker, I think the university president, said, "You now have the most valuable asset you will ever own: a college degree!"

I mean with that kind of valuation, no loan is too much, is it?

[Zarathud]

We give away plenty to businesses. I would be fine with helping out students, even if they made bad choices. In the end, being crushed by student debt is bad for society and the economy.

This should be a rational policy discussion of cost v benefit, not resentment.

[LawBeefaroni]

Writing off loans,subsidizing loans, and giving loans to everyone regardless of ability (or projected ability) to repay all contribute to cost.

Since benefit doesn't generally increase with cost, free/unduly cheap money sits on the wrong side of the cost/benefit discussion.

[GreenGoo]

I was sitting in the parking lot next to the Northwestern Commencement speech today at Ryan Field (long, dumb story). A speaker, I think the university president, said, "You now have the most valuable asset you will ever own: a college degree!"

I mean with that kind of valuation, no loan is too much, is it?

Whoa. The head of an academic institute talking about the value of a degree? He was clearly talking in material terms. Cha-ching, am I right?

[GreenGoo]

Writing off loans,subsidizing loans, and giving loans to everyone regardless of ability (or projected ability) to repay all contribute to cost.

Since benefit doesn't generally increase with cost, free/unduly cheap money sits on the wrong side of the cost/benefit discussion.

No one gets any money because capitalism and free market forces. I'm convinced.

[Unagi]

It’s basically a white collar “payday loan”.

[LawBeefaroni]

I was sitting in the parking lot next to the Northwestern Commencement speech today at Ryan Field (long, dumb story). A speaker, I think the university president, said, "You now have the most valuable asset you will ever own: a college degree!"

I mean with that kind of valuation, no loan is too much, is it?

Whoa. The head of an academic institute talking about the value of a degree? He was clearly talking in material terms. Cha-ching, am I right?

1:06:00


"...you overcame to earn the most valuable asset you will ever own: a college degree..."

I mean it's pretty clear he's talking a material asset.

I certainly hope he's not putting it above intangibles like honesty or integrity.

(And yes I know it's just a Commencement speech designed to make everyone feel good. But I happened to hear about 30 seconds as I was heading onto my meeting and that was the part I heard. Seemed perfect for here.)

[GreenGoo]

"...you overcame to earn the most valuable asset you will ever own: a college degree..."

I mean it's pretty clear he's talking a material asset.

If you say so.

For the record, I did watch it.