The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

[Smoove_B]

This is exactly why until workplaces start mandating vaccinations, it's never going to end. And not to pick on Kurth, but would your travel plans have changed if you knew that resort staff was only 40% vaccinated? Or would you have been more inclined to travel knowing resort staff was 90% vaccinated? Businesses - customer service focused business in particular - could be using this as a way to demonstrate their commitment to promoting a safer environment for all. Instead they're too afraid to mandate anything. I am hoping that changes, and fast.

This is part of my issue (personal) with doing anything right now. My family is fully vaccinated (finally) at this point. With Delta now ramping up, I have zero interest in being around public spaces - despite being fully protected. Hell is other people and even though I'm confident I won't die, there's just not enough data out there for long-term health outcomes associated breakthrough illness. Is there a potential for chronic health issues? Even though I'm not going to die or be hospitalized is there still a chance for organ or tissue damage? Sure, overall breakthrough risk is low, but it's much higher than it needs to be because all mask mandates have been removed and people refuse to vaccinate.

This entire process has me placing my trust in others and I'm at peak distrust right now - which is impressive (for me) considering the timeline.

[LordMortis]

could be using this as a way to demonstrate their commitment to promoting a safer environment for all. Instead they're too afraid to mandate anything. I am hoping that changes, and fast.

Business is relying of Gov't and Gov't is afraid of the freedom loving, done my research, anti mask, anti vaccination populace.

Business seems to be moving to a work around to move forward without Gov't. They are making an appeal to provide vaccinated rules and not vaccinated rules and then letting right to work sort it out. And boy is it pissing off the right to work freedom loving done my research anti mask anti vaccination part of the workforce but somehow not enough to quit. Kinda strange because they are also complaining Gov't is paying people more not to work than to work.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Final thing: HI hasn’t reached its vaccination threshold or the other metrics needed to lift the mask mandates, and as a result of their rules, all hotel staff had to wear masks 100% of the time. I felt terrible for these people, working hard and absolutely melting under the heat by mid-morning.

I'm sure it's not ideal for them, but they've probably gotten used to it. Last summer we were required to wear face masks while doing fieldwork, which often was in 90+ degree weather. It was annoying but not insufferable once you adjusted.

[LawBeefaroni]

She was complaining about the masks and hoping that Maui could reach its metrics soon and the mandates would be discontinued. My wife commented that some of the mandates - especially regarding seating and masks - seemed off given that everyone traveling to the hotel had tested COVID negative and most were vaccinated. At that point, this woman conceded that she wasn’t vaccinated and didn’t plan on doing it anytime soon. She said she was “waiting to see how it goes,” but then she laughed and said that she hoped everyone else would hurry up and get it done already.

Have a colleague who was waiting to see how the vaccines panned out before getting the shot. The colleague died of COVID-19 while waiting.

[Zaxxon]

She was complaining about the masks and hoping that Maui could reach its metrics soon and the mandates would be discontinued. My wife commented that some of the mandates - especially regarding seating and masks - seemed off given that everyone traveling to the hotel had tested COVID negative and most were vaccinated. At that point, this woman conceded that she wasn’t vaccinated and didn’t plan on doing it anytime soon. She said she was “waiting to see how it goes,” but then she laughed and said that she hoped everyone else would hurry up and get it done already.

Have a colleague who was waiting to see how the vaccines panned out before getting the shot. The colleague died of COVID-19 while waiting.

Ouch.

[LordMortis]

As much as it pisses me off, I still don't wish that on anyone.... Well almost not anyone. There were a few politicians acting as "influencers" I honestly wished would experience the price they are asking others to pay.

[Kurth]

This is exactly why until workplaces start mandating vaccinations, it's never going to end. And not to pick on Kurth, but would your travel plans have changed if you knew that resort staff was only 40% vaccinated? Or would you have been more inclined to travel knowing resort staff was 90% vaccinated? Businesses - customer service focused business in particular - could be using this as a way to demonstrate their commitment to promoting a safer environment for all. Instead they're too afraid to mandate anything. I am hoping that changes, and fast.

Honestly, having already had COVID once and having the whole family fully vaccinated, I’m not all that concerned about being around non-vaccinated idiots. So, if the choice were between not going to Maui or going to a resort where only 40% of the staff were vaccinated, it would be a pretty easy call for me.

That said, if I had a choice between a resort where staff was 40% vaccinated and one that was 90% vaccinated, that would also be an easy call. I’d absolutely choose the better vaccinated resort, not because I was necessarily concerned about our own health, but because (1) I wouldn’t want to be at a resort during an outbreak of COVID, even if our own health wasn’t adversely impacted; and (2) I’d have a lot more trust in the management and overall competence of a resort that had found a way to get its staff more rather than less vaccinated.

So, in the end, I’m in 100% agreement with you, Smoove, that businesses are missing an opportunity to distinguish themselves and get a competitive advantage by not mandating vaccines for staff (with obvious exceptions for those who cannot be vaccinated for legitimate health reasons).

[Kraken]

ATTENTION FELLOW LIBERALS: We can stop work on that secret virus that will only infect conservatives, because nearly all covid deaths now are among the unvaxxed.

out of the 853,000 people hospitalized throughout the U.S. in May, just 1,200 of them were vaccinated, a proportion that corresponds to roughly 0.1%.

AP similarly found 150 vaccinated Americans accounted for the 18,000 Covid-related deaths over that month, which translates to about 0.8%.

[Freyland]

ATTENTION FELLOW LIBERALS: We can stop work on that secret virus that will only infect conservatives, because nearly all covid deaths now are among the unvaxxed.

out of the 853,000 people hospitalized throughout the U.S. in May, just 1,200 of them were vaccinated, a proportion that corresponds to roughly 0.1%.

AP similarly found 150 vaccinated Americans accounted for the 18,000 Covid-related deaths over that month, which translates to about 0.8%.

Still think Jewish space lasers would have been cooler, but I only got one vote.

[Smoove_B]

The WHO chimes in:

The World Health Organization on Friday urged fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks, social distance and practice other Covid-19 pandemic safety measures as the highly contagious delta variant spreads rapidly across the globe.

"People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves," Dr. Mariangela Simao, WHO assistant director-general for access to medicines and health products, said during a news briefing from the agency's Geneva headquarters.

"Vaccine alone won't stop community transmission," Simao added. "People need to continue to use masks consistently, be in ventilated spaces, hand hygiene ... the physical distance, avoid crowding. This still continues to be extremely important, even if you're vaccinated when you have a community transmission ongoing."

[$iljanus]

The WHO chimes in:

The World Health Organization on Friday urged fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks, social distance and practice other Covid-19 pandemic safety measures as the highly contagious delta variant spreads rapidly across the globe.

"People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves," Dr. Mariangela Simao, WHO assistant director-general for access to medicines and health products, said during a news briefing from the agency's Geneva headquarters.

"Vaccine alone won't stop community transmission," Simao added. "People need to continue to use masks consistently, be in ventilated spaces, hand hygiene ... the physical distance, avoid crowding. This still continues to be extremely important, even if you're vaccinated when you have a community transmission ongoing."

This just depresses the shit out of me. We will never have nice things,especially since there’s enough unvaccinated folks in Fucktard USA to keep Delta happy for a long time…

Well on the bright side, with the vaccination rate and mask compliance in MA we can hopefully keep Delta from getting a strong foothold here. But people are gonna travel. Sigh….

[Smoove_B]

Yup. And there's still a large cohort in my corner of NJ yelling and screaming about taking the masks off kids - kids that are too young to be vaccinated and are then only being protected by masks and vaccinated people above the age of 12.

All I can say is...prepare for Fall 2021. I hope schools and employers are ready for things to pivot in a heartbeat, depending on local conditions.

[$iljanus]

I'm still banking on my vaccination at least keeping me out of the hospital if I do get infected. I wonder however if Gamma is far behind and what interesting mutations will come with it...

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, I'm not worried about getting COVID-19 and being admitted to a hospital or dying. I'm more concerned that even as a vaccinated person it's seeming more and more likely that I'm going to get COVID-19. Assuming I have a mild case, does the vaccination protect me from any potential long-term issues associated with any COVID-19 infection? Does the vaccination offer any protection against chronic complications or only short-term illness?

And absolutely - as the virus continues to circulate into more and more people, it continues to roll the dice. Eventually another configuration will emerge and we're at its mercy.

[Defiant]

Yeah, I'm not worried about getting COVID-19 and being admitted to a hospital or dying. I'm more concerned that even as a vaccinated person it's seeming more and more likely that I'm going to get COVID-19. Assuming I have a mild case, does the vaccination protect me from any potential long-term issues associated with any COVID-19 infection? Does the vaccination offer any protection against chronic complications or only short-term illness?

On this issue:

Are Fully Vaccinated People Who Get COVID At Risk For Long Term Symptoms?

It’s not yet clear whether people who experience breakthrough infections are likely to grapple with long-haul COVID-19, or post-acute sequelae of SARS-CoV-2 (PASC). This can cause a range of symptoms that may last weeks or even months after a person is initially infected with the virus and can include everything from fatigue and dizziness to mental health problems.

But experts are optimistic that many of the people with a breakthrough case won’t endure long-haul COVID-19.

That said, he does have concerns about the potential for long-haul COVID-19 among people who are fully vaccinated and immunosuppressed. “A vaccinated patient getting chemotherapy can still get sick, and they can still get quite sick, because their response to the vaccine is so much less efficient,” Wolfe said.

Whether or not breakthrough cases are linked to long-haul COVID, the need for more research is real.

Also:
A 33-year-old nurse got long COVID despite being fully vaccinated. Doctors think we may see more of these rare cases.

[El Guapo]

The WHO chimes in:

The World Health Organization on Friday urged fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks, social distance and practice other Covid-19 pandemic safety measures as the highly contagious delta variant spreads rapidly across the globe.

"People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves," Dr. Mariangela Simao, WHO assistant director-general for access to medicines and health products, said during a news briefing from the agency's Geneva headquarters.

"Vaccine alone won't stop community transmission," Simao added. "People need to continue to use masks consistently, be in ventilated spaces, hand hygiene ... the physical distance, avoid crowding. This still continues to be extremely important, even if you're vaccinated when you have a community transmission ongoing."

This just depresses the shit out of me. We will never have nice things,especially since there’s enough unvaccinated folks in Fucktard USA to keep Delta happy for a long time…

Well on the bright side, with the vaccination rate and mask compliance in MA we can hopefully keep Delta from getting a strong foothold here. But people are gonna travel. Sigh….

Seems like mask wearing is going down quite a bit in MA from what I can tell (though still pretty high in my neighborhood). I think vaccination rates are pretty high, though.

[Kraken]

The WHO chimes in:

The World Health Organization on Friday urged fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks, social distance and practice other Covid-19 pandemic safety measures as the highly contagious delta variant spreads rapidly across the globe.

"People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves," Dr. Mariangela Simao, WHO assistant director-general for access to medicines and health products, said during a news briefing from the agency's Geneva headquarters.

"Vaccine alone won't stop community transmission," Simao added. "People need to continue to use masks consistently, be in ventilated spaces, hand hygiene ... the physical distance, avoid crowding. This still continues to be extremely important, even if you're vaccinated when you have a community transmission ongoing."

This just depresses the shit out of me. We will never have nice things,especially since there’s enough unvaccinated folks in Fucktard USA to keep Delta happy for a long time…

Well on the bright side, with the vaccination rate and mask compliance in MA we can hopefully keep Delta from getting a strong foothold here. But people are gonna travel. Sigh….

Seems like mask wearing is going down quite a bit in MA from what I can tell (though still pretty high in my neighborhood). I think vaccination rates are pretty high, though.

Norfolk County is at 71% fully and over 80% of eligible people at least partially vaxxed, which is just a whisker higher than the state numbers. As I posted in the EBG thread, I was at an outdoor festival today with at least a couple of thousand other people and I saw maybe a dozen masks, half of them worn incorrectly. As Siljanus said, with some luck Mass. will avoid the fall surge that's going to sweep through the red states (although I do expect that we'll go back to safe practices then anyway).

[$iljanus]

The WHO chimes in:

The World Health Organization on Friday urged fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks, social distance and practice other Covid-19 pandemic safety measures as the highly contagious delta variant spreads rapidly across the globe.

"People cannot feel safe just because they had the two doses. They still need to protect themselves," Dr. Mariangela Simao, WHO assistant director-general for access to medicines and health products, said during a news briefing from the agency's Geneva headquarters.

"Vaccine alone won't stop community transmission," Simao added. "People need to continue to use masks consistently, be in ventilated spaces, hand hygiene ... the physical distance, avoid crowding. This still continues to be extremely important, even if you're vaccinated when you have a community transmission ongoing."

This just depresses the shit out of me. We will never have nice things,especially since there’s enough unvaccinated folks in Fucktard USA to keep Delta happy for a long time…

Well on the bright side, with the vaccination rate and mask compliance in MA we can hopefully keep Delta from getting a strong foothold here. But people are gonna travel. Sigh….

Seems like mask wearing is going down quite a bit in MA from what I can tell (though still pretty high in my neighborhood). I think vaccination rates are pretty high, though.

I still see mask wearers in my area but more folks aren’t wearing them. But the non mask wearers are probably vaccinated, unlike say in Mississippi. I think our mask compliance in 2020 and early 2021 has gotten us to a good spot where I feel somewhat comfortable with my surroundings. Now we just have to ban outside visitors to Mass…

Now as for traveling outside New England, I’m still a bit hesitant. Would love to visit a good friend of mine (family all vaccinated) someday in Louisiana in the Fall. With some relatives in MD who are disdainful of the science and maybe half of them vaccinated but the kids probably not no one is getting a visit this summer.

[disarm]

I hope to see more and more hospital systems around the nation doing the same.

Three large health care providers in Massachusetts -- Mass General Brigham, Beth Israel Lahey Health and Wellforce -- are mandating that all employees be vaccinated against COVID-19.

Good jerb MA.

The Connecticut Hospital Association voted a few days ago to endorse mandatory vaccination in the state's hospitals.

I'm curious to see the employee response to the mandates when they are officially implemented. The hospital system within which I work has been sitting around 70% vaccination for a few months now, so a lot of people have continued to refuse despite extremely wide availability.

I think one of the problems in CT now is a lack of motivation for those still unvaccinated because our COVID numbers are incredibly low and almost all restrictions have been lifted. Why get the vaccine when it feels like COVID has almost disappeared in our area anyway? I think it's a ridiculous point of view, especially in light of Delta, but it's not hard to see why some people feel that way. The more people who get vaccinated the better, so bring on the mandates!

[Smoove_B]

I would guess it's going to be very similar to the annual influenza mandates, in terms of compliance. Though I'd expect more to quit over refusal to vaccinate based on the "experimental" nature of COVID-19 vaccinations.

In NJ news, our governor has now indicated the state will not require school children to wear masks in September. Instead, this will be a local district-level decision.

For those unaware, NJ has ~680 different school districts (which is incomprehensible, for reference). I understand (politically) why he pushed this down to them, but good lord the Fall school year is going to be a cluster truck.

Though masks won’t be mandatory, Murphy said state officials “strongly encourage” local school and health officials, educators, and parents to “work collaboratively on a masking policy that works for their educational communities.”

He also said “any student or educator who feels more comfortable wearing a mask will be allowed to without fear of bullying or intimidation.”

So, to be clear. Can't vaccinate kids under 12 and I'm guessing the overwhelming majority of school districts will not require a mask - because parents are going to yell. Magic crystals and prayers will be protecting kids this coming school year, I guess.

[coopasonic]

Would you rather have a governor that says no mask mandates in schools allowed? Asking for a friend.

[Smoove_B]

That's fair.

I just know if there's a group that knows less about infectious disease control it's a local school district superintendents. And unlike a governor, they don't have a team of experts to help guide them (or in your case, ignore).

[malchior]

School superintendents don't have to worry about mid-fall elections. But I guess he wants to play it safe with only a 25-point lead.

[Smoove_B]

If you had your money on LA County being the first to make the recommendation, collect your prize:

Los Angeles County public health officials are now "strongly" recommending everyone to wear masks indoors, regardless of vaccination status, due to an increased spread of the Delta variant.

The recommendation, which officials say is a precautionary measure, is a change from recent mask guidance, which allows fully vaccinated people to go maskless in most indoor and outdoor settings.

"Public Health strongly recommends people wear masks indoors in settings such as grocery or retail stores; theaters and family entertainment centers, and workplaces when you don't know everyone's vaccination status," L.A. County Department of Public Health said in a statement.

[Smoove_B]

Not surprisingly, the NJ governor pushing mask requirements down to the ~680 school districts in NJ is having a mixed reaction:

Pediatrician + educator:

Lawrence C. Kleinman, the vice chair of the pediatrics department at Robert Wood Johnson Medical School at Rutgers University, said he continues to believe that those who are unvaccinated against COVID-19 should keep wearing masks, as should anyone who will be around unvaccinated individuals indoors.

...

Kleinmam also noted the Delta variant of COVID-19, which poses additional risk to those who are not vaccinated, such as children under age 12. He said he is concerned what might happen if the variant begins to surge at the end of summer or early in the fall.

“I want nothing more than to be wrong about this. We have come so far and I don’t want us to inadvertently get caught up because we failed to recognize either the danger to children or the risk posed to the community by a reservoir of unvaccinated younger children,” Kleinman said.

Teachers' Union:

NJEA spokesperson Steven Baker said schools “should continue to follow the best medical guidance” in combatting the COVID-19 pandemic.

“If the scientific consensus says that they can do so safely without mandatory masking or other mitigation measures, it will help to restore a greater sense of normalcy. But if the guidance still calls for masking or other measures, we must be guided by that and not by political pressure,” Baker told NJ Advance Media.

Parents (at an Unmask the Children Rally at NJ State House on 6/3):



Pain

[Jaymon]

Flauc and Faugi , exactly the level of competence I expect from anti-maskers

[Ralph-Wiggum]

College of Charleston announced today that they are going back to normal operations next fall and are not requiring students or staff to be vaccinated. However, they are making things more onerous on unvaccinated students: 1) if the are living on campus, they must show either a negative PCR test dated after mid August or a positive Covid test (!) dated from mid May or later (I guess the idea is that they'll have antibodies?), 2) they are required to take monthly COVID tests, and 3) if they come in contact with anyone who turns out to be Covid positive, they must quarantine for 10 days. I suppose as a state school that perhaps is the most they can do considering our governor put the kibosh on mask mandates. Hopefully it's annoying enough that at least some vaccine-hesitant people will get it.

[malchior]

Call me crazy but those seem like mostly pointless nuisance-level stuff. Why not charge them a fee instead? It'd be more straightforward and probably would drive more compliance.

[El Guapo]

Also a monthly COVID test seems pretty useless. Unless you get lucky and happen to test someone right when a COVID infection is introduced into the college community, seems like there's a high chance that an outbreak gets out of control before it's picked up by the testing.

[Smoove_B]

I suppose as a state school that perhaps is the most they can do considering our governor put the kibosh on mask mandates. Hopefully it's annoying enough that at least some vaccine-hesitant people will get it.

My employer hasn't specifically stated anything yet, but in reading between the lines of what has been stated, it seems like they're going to require masks for students, faculty and staff while on campus and using campus facilities. In addition, all students are required to be vaccinated as well, but faculty and staff haven't been mandated (yet).

As someone that has been dealing with all kinds of instructional disruptions from students that are getting COVID-19 or dealing with family members suffering from COVID-19, the policy your employer has come up with is going to be an administrative nightmare with students potentially randomly missing 10+ days of instruction, assignments, exams, etc....

But I guess it's much harder to require vaccination and wear masks than expect instructors to figure out how to deal with how a disease outbreak impacts course offerings.

It's the same reason I think employers in general are crazy for not mandating it. Depending on how many people in any given office aren't vaccinated, there's a real potential to disrupt TPS reporting.

[Jaymon]

If you were a big business owner, then it just comes down to math. What is the potential financial impact of requiring vaccination? Includes replacing the unvaccinated and potential lawsuits, and compare that to the financial impact of letting the unvaccinated roam the halls. Causing outbreaks, missing work, forcing office shutdowns for cleaning. And, the potential legal headache if an outbreak at work kills somebody, is that workers comp if you got sick because you caught it at work?

Well as long as its legal to require vaccinated, its starting to look a whole lot cheaper. And never mind how much you can tell about someone's personality and willingness to be a team player.

[gilraen]

It will be much easier for employers, schools, military, etc. to require the COVID vaccinations once FDA issues a full approval. Because of the emergency authorization status, it's a grey legal area where you can't mandate an "experimental treatment" or whatever.

[Smoove_B]

I mentioned it elsewhere, my wife works for an insurance company and they're not requiring it. There's ~2200 people at the office and vaccination rates for people living in my county are hovering around ~51% fully vaccinated. You'd think there would be someone working there really good at managing risk, potential exposure and loss coming up with a better plan.

It's 100% a function of where the company is located and the majority of employees live. It's absolutely a decision being made for political reasons, or at least heavily influenced by politics.

[ImLawBoy]

My extremely national/international company which has its HQ in Texas is not requiring the vaccine, but they are encouraging people to get it and you get to skip masking and distancing (with exceptions for retail locations, I think) in the office if you register as vaccinated. Given the TX HQ, I'm impressed that the company has been as vocally pro-vaccine as it is, but I think it would be nearly impossible to get everyone to vaccinate just given how many freaking employees we have worldwide (not sure the current numbers, but I think we're still over 250K).

[edit]We also have a big union workforce, and I'm not sure the logistics of getting the unions to buy into mandatory vaccination.[/edit]

[noxiousdog]

Our guidance is the vaccined don't need masks in the office. If you haven't gotten it you do. Code of Conduct violations for lying, but nobody is checking.

[Smoove_B]

Illinois summer camp, making the news:

More than 80 teens and adult staff have tested positive for COVID-19 after attending a summer camp in central Illinois that did not require masks indoors or vaccination status.

Of the 85 people infected, about 70% of the cases were in those not vaccinated, according to a press release from the Illinois Department of Health on Monday.

"The perceived risk to children may seem small, but even a mild case of COVID-19 can cause long-term health issues," IDPH Director Dr. Ngozi Ezike said in the release.

CNN reported that the Crossing Camp in Schuyler County was held in mid-June and left one unvaccinated teen needing hospitalization after contracting the virus.

A camp that didn't require masks indoors or inquire about vaccination status had an outbreak - in case you're wondering what September is going to look like at schools in parts of America.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Illinois summer camp, making the news:

Of the 85 people infected, about 70% of the cases were in those not vaccinated, according to a press release from the Illinois Department of Health on Monday.

Seems like a lot of breakthrough cases? Wonder if this was the Delta variant...

[Kurth]

My extremely national/international company which has its HQ in Texas is not requiring the vaccine, but they are encouraging people to get it and you get to skip masking and distancing (with exceptions for retail locations, I think) in the office if you register as vaccinated. Given the TX HQ, I'm impressed that the company has been as vocally pro-vaccine as it is, but I think it would be nearly impossible to get everyone to vaccinate just given how many freaking employees we have worldwide (not sure the current numbers, but I think we're still over 250K).

[edit]We also have a big union workforce, and I'm not sure the logistics of getting the unions to buy into mandatory vaccination.[/edit]

This is pretty close to our situation as well. People are being welcomed back to the office (3 days a week now) and no social distancing or masking mandate if you are vaccinated. Similarly, these policies are going to be different for retail locations in different places in the U.S. and obviously around the world.

Given the massive vaccination initiative (we were vaccinating 10K people a day at one point) at WHQ, I have to think our percentages for employee vaccination are really solid, but I haven’t seen any numbers on that.

[malchior]

What a slimeball.

[LawBeefaroni]

The blitz is on.