Octopus Overlords

Since it has officially passed in the House, we should probably have a topic.

The vote came just days after the White House put out a statement of support for the bill, arguing “for far too long, the more than 700,000 people of Washington, D.C. have been deprived of full representation in the U.S. Congress.”

This is not the first time statehood has made it to the House floor. Just last year, House Democrats voted 232-180 in favor of statehood, making it “the first time in the nation’s history that either house of Congress approved legislation granting full statehood and congressional representation” to the District, Vox’s Ian Millhiser reported at the time.

But, the best chance yet still isn’t much of one: The bill — like last time — is likely to join countless others languishing under the might of the Senate filibuster.

Anyone want to take bets on which (D) Senators vote against it? Because you already know 100% of the (R) will. I'm trying really hard to understand legitimate reasons as to why it shouldn't happen, and coming up short.

Well, this depends entirely on whether the filibuster is abolished or curtailed. It's not going to come to a vote on the merits otherwise.

If it does come to a vote on the merits I think it's likely to pass 50-50. I tend to be a little optimistic in general about Senators these days ultimately falling in line for things that leadership of their party prioritize, though obviously it matters what Manchin, Sinema, etc. think. But I think they're more likely to voice any opposition in the context of the filibuster, instead of on the merits of the DC statehood bill.

There are 5 hold outs as of this morning on the (D) coalition side. I don't think they would get all 5. Out of the 5, the one that attracted my attention the most was Angus King. He seems to be somewhat guarded here and I don't know why. Maybe negotiation on something else? The other 4 are pure purple state toss ups. They don't want to take a position because they don't need to since this is just political theater with filibuster inevitable.

Part of it is that while the Democrats aren't generally as disciplined as the Republicans, increasingly the pattern here on both parties is for the moderates to publicly gnash their teeth about whatever bill is coming up, and the quietly fall into line when it comes time to vote. If nothing else this bill is ultimately in the self-interest of any Democratic senator because it helps them to have two more Democratic senators.

I'm not sure about overcoming the filibuster, though.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:45 pm Part of it is that while the Democrats aren't generally as disciplined as the Republicans, increasingly the pattern here on both parties is for the moderates to publicly gnash their teeth about whatever bill is coming up, and the quietly fall into line when it comes time to vote. If nothing else this bill is ultimately in the self-interest of any Democratic senator because it helps them to have two more Democratic senators.

I'm not sure about overcoming the filibuster, though.

Sure and I think they saw their GOP colleagues develop a playbook as you said. It comes down that they don't mind a filibuster threat. The filibuster gives them the excuse to dodge and not take up a hard position on any issue that doesn't help them individually.

It ain't happening.

So what would they name the state? New Biden?

Jaymann wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:47 pm So what would they name the state? New Biden?

I don't know about the bill that just passed, but the bill that Norton introduced in January would name it "Washington, Douglass Commonwealth". To name it after Frederick Douglass but also so that people could (as they inevitably would) still call it Washington DC.

The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Jaymann wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:47 pm So what would they name the state? New Biden?

Other Washington.

What might make the most sense is just Columbia. So it would never go that way. And I think Christopher has fallen out of favor.

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

It isn't the 18th century anymore. "State" then meant something different than "state" does now.

And what would the state capital be? Ivy City?

Jaymann wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:47 pm So what would they name the state? New Biden?

Washington Politics City

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

There would still be a District of Columbia, but it would basically consist only of the National Mall and associated Federal buildings.

Even so, the new state would contain more citizens than Wyoming or Vermont and would almost tie Alaska and North Dakota. All of those states' citizens have representation in Congress.

If they're going to make DC a state they ought to follow with Puerto Rico and Guam.
And maybe Florida.

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:35 pm If they're going to make DC a state they ought to follow with Puerto Rico and Guam.
And maybe Florida.

It is odd we have numerous territories around the world.

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Even if it doesn't ultimately win them the game, it's kind of refreshing to see the Democrats playing offense this season.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

Plus last year's national guard response and 1/6 put in sharp relief that the President has excess control over their safety versus states which have additional protection from state law enforcement.

Attempting to deny people of things like rights and representation is pretty on-brand for the Republicans these days.

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

The core district where the government buildings are clustered would still be a nonstate. The outlying environs where most people live and work would form the new state.

Doesn't admitting new states usually involve parity? That is, if the Republicans allow DC and PR, the Democrats will allow them to carve CA into three states (for example) so that the status quo is initially preserved.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

If they wanted it that badly, there's plenty of states to live. An estimated 300,000 commute daily from Maryland or Virginia.

Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

The core district where the government buildings are clustered would still be a nonstate. The outlying environs where most people live and work would form the new state.

Doesn't admitting new states usually involve parity? That is, if the Republicans allow DC and PR, the Democrats will allow them to carve CA into three states (for example) so that the status quo is initially preserved.

Not since slavery.

I’m going to hold out for Marvel statehood.

Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

The core district where the government buildings are clustered would still be a nonstate. The outlying environs where most people live and work would form the new state.

Doesn't admitting new states usually involve parity? That is, if the Republicans allow DC and PR, the Democrats will allow them to carve CA into three states (for example) so that the status quo is initially preserved.

Ask the Dakota territory - errr I mean the Dakotas. As well as Wyoming, Montana, Washington, and Idaho.

In short, the Republicans destroyed that concept year and years ago.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

If they wanted it that badly, there's plenty of states to live. An estimated 300,000 commute daily from Maryland or Virginia.

Thats a particularly gross attitude. You could say that if the original colonists wanted representation they could have moved to England. Asking citizens to move from their home - a good many of which do not have the financial means to do so - in order to have a voice in government is horrible. I hope I am missing sarcasm in your post.

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:01 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

If they wanted it that badly, there's plenty of states to live. An estimated 300,000 commute daily from Maryland or Virginia.

Thats a particularly gross attitude. You could say that if the original colonists wanted representation they could have moved to England. Asking citizens to move from their home - a good many of which do not have the financial means to do so - in order to have a voice in government is horrible. I hope I am missing sarcasm in your post.

I agree, his comment read as pretty obnoxious, IMO.

The respectable Republican response would be to extend the neighboring states to include the residential parts of DC, thereby giving these people representation without giving Democrats two more Senate seats.

I don't expect any such proposal to come forward from the Republican side.

Defiant wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:24 am The respectable Republican response would be to extend the neighboring states to include the residential parts of DC, thereby giving these people representation without giving Democrats two more Senate seats.

I don't expect any such proposal to come forward from the Republican side.

That position would give the people representations though and would be defendable whereas the current "screw them" approach just reinforces their lack of compassion for anyone not them.

Defiant wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:24 am The respectable Republican response would be to extend the neighboring states to include the residential parts of DC, thereby giving these people representation without giving Democrats two more Senate seats.

I don't expect any such proposal to come forward from the Republican side.

They have actually. The Republican alternative is to retrocede most of DC into Maryland. They have a bill in the House and the Senate introduced as alternatives.

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:01 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

If they wanted it that badly, there's plenty of states to live. An estimated 300,000 commute daily from Maryland or Virginia.

Thats a particularly gross attitude. You could say that if the original colonists wanted representation they could have moved to England. Asking citizens to move from their home - a good many of which do not have the financial means to do so - in order to have a voice in government is horrible. I hope I am missing sarcasm in your post.

Oh, yes. A 10 minute commute, when 1/3 of the city already does it, is such a hardship.. especially when there's plenty of mass transit.

Malchior has it right. Let Maryland or Virginia annex it. If the true reason is you want the citizens to have voting representation, then it's a perfect compromise.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:44 amMalchior has it right. Let Maryland or Virginia annex it. If the true reason is you want the citizens to have voting representation, then it's a perfect compromise.

I was just showing that there is a Republican counter proposal. I'll be clear that I support DC statehood but only because we desperately need to fix the Senate. I don't think it's the 'best idea' but instead is a holding action that'll maybe stave off near inevitable authoritarianism. I don't mistake the GOP trying to return them to a state as being good governance either. They know it waters down their disproportionate power.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:29 am

Defiant wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:24 am The respectable Republican response would be to extend the neighboring states to include the residential parts of DC, thereby giving these people representation without giving Democrats two more Senate seats.

I don't expect any such proposal to come forward from the Republican side.

They have actually. The Republican alternative is to retrocede most of DC into Maryland. They have a bill in the House and the Senate introduced as alternatives.

The flaw with the Republican approach in terms of this alternative is that it concedes a core premise of the Democrats' statehood bill - basically, it uses the same framework of granting representation to D.C. residents by shrinking the District to just the core Capitol buildings and national mall, and making the rest of current D.C. part of a state (it just makes that state Maryland instead of a separate D.C. state).

But once you accept that framework, it begs the question of why is it important to make them part of an existing state as opposed to a new state? Yeah D.C. would be a low population state, but it has more people than Vermont and Wyoming (and only slightly less than Alaska and each Dakota). This is why Republicans keep finding laughably irrelevant distinctions between D.C. and other states, like how D.C. doesn't have any mines, or supposedly lacks car dealerships (which isn't true anyway). A lot of them are dogwhistle versions of D.C. being urban, or majority black. And as someone who lived in D.C. for many years, I can tell you that D.C. residents have a distinct identity from Maryland or Virginia (as distinct as the difference between, say, Rhode Island and Connecticut).

I'm kind of surprised that no one has proposed making D.C. a state while simultaneously returning Arlington from Virginia to D.C., which would help tilt Virginia rightward.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:44 am

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:01 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

If they wanted it that badly, there's plenty of states to live. An estimated 300,000 commute daily from Maryland or Virginia.

Thats a particularly gross attitude. You could say that if the original colonists wanted representation they could have moved to England. Asking citizens to move from their home - a good many of which do not have the financial means to do so - in order to have a voice in government is horrible. I hope I am missing sarcasm in your post.

Oh, yes. A 10 minute commute, when 1/3 of the city already does it, is such a hardship.. especially when there's plenty of mass transit.

Malchior has it right. Let Maryland or Virginia annex it. If the true reason is you want the citizens to have voting representation, then it's a perfect compromise.

Why is it important to you that the people in D.C. get representation as part of an existing state, rather than as part of a new state?

I'm against using flavor of the month rules to fix government. It's a slippery slope. If the supreme court is expanded under Biden, what do you think is going to happen next time the Republicans have a majority?

If we make DC a state, couldn't you divide Texas in 5?

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:56 amI'm kind of surprised that no one has proposed making D.C. a state while simultaneously returning Arlington from Virginia to D.C., which would help tilt Virginia rightward.

It's probably more that it is too complicated whereas the dog whistle stuff just plays on its own. Heck it's dual purpose. They get to signal their bullshit and know that there is almost no chance it happens. It's cynicism and power politics. I never question why the GOP does anything. They're simply better at gaming this system. That's why I think they'll eventually win this war.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:44 am

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:01 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

If they wanted it that badly, there's plenty of states to live. An estimated 300,000 commute daily from Maryland or Virginia.

Thats a particularly gross attitude. You could say that if the original colonists wanted representation they could have moved to England. Asking citizens to move from their home - a good many of which do not have the financial means to do so - in order to have a voice in government is horrible. I hope I am missing sarcasm in your post.

Oh, yes. A 10 minute commute, when 1/3 of the city already does it, is such a hardship.. especially when there's plenty of mass transit.

You don't think moving to Maryland is the same as a six week ocean crossing to re-enter religious persecution or indentured servitude?

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:01 am I'm against using flavor of the month rules to fix government. It's a slippery slope. If the supreme court is expanded under Biden, what do you think is going to happen next time the Republicans have a majority?

We run headlong into full-fascism?

I genuinely believe the next set of elections has the real potential to change the course of America if the GOP regains control. If it's just Congress in 2022, they'll double down on stopping any type of legislative action from occurring. If Trump or a Trump acolyte is elected in 2024 as President? Lights out.

Right now, I think we should be doing everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen. Securing voting rights. Expanding the SCotUS. Adding D.C. as a state (for more representation).