You know that OO didn't start the discussion on this, right? It's not all that unusual for people around here to form strong opinions on things that arise in the national media and then to start discussions around them here. Maybe they had opinions on the subject before. Maybe they didn't. I know I've had an opinion on this for some time, but I don't know that I've ever discussed it here before. That doesn't make me having an opinion on it now disingenuous.
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:52 amIndeed. But I think we should acknowledge that slightly flawed is a far cry from comically broken.
Sure but I mean it's all in perspective. We aren't like Belgium who ranked far lower which took over a year to build a coalition government. However their caretaker government did little harm. And importantly the Belgians didn't have a party try to overturn an election and storm their parliament. Which is worse? *Shrug*
I could do the same dance all around these tiny little European nations but in the end I think it's important to think of us in different terms. We're easily the most fractured advanced economy. Considering the scale and importance for world leadership and stability maybe I'd serve up an alternative to comically broken and instead substitute tragically broken. Not trying to move goal posts but more that's how I think of this. Are we terrible compared to the world? No but if we break it'll be one of most important events in human history.
I know you keep saying it's broken, but it's clearly not. The EU just had a secession. How's that for a fractured advanced economy?
You accepted the generalized view of that chart which shows us at the highest of the flawed democracies. Yes, trending the wrong way, but the last election is likely to reverse those trends.
I don't think I agree with your most important events in human history, though this would make for a very interesting thread. Maybe in the last 200 years, but let's be real: The US is going to be a footnote in human history. We had a nice run from the 1940's into about 2010. Our run is a fraction of the British Empire. Let alone all the real ones like Egypt or the Mongols. The second we realize we don't need to be the world's police force (long overdue), we're done as far as global importance.
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:52 pm
by noxiousdog
ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:47 pm
You know that OO didn't start the discussion on this, right? It's not all that unusual for people around here to form strong opinions on things that arise in the national media and then to start discussions around them here. Maybe they had opinions on the subject before. Maybe they didn't. I know I've had an opinion on this for some time, but I don't know that I've ever discussed it here before. That doesn't make me having an opinion on it now disingenuous.
As I said, if you've had an opinion and cared about this for a long time, I apologize.
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:56 pm
by Lorini
It was (half humorously) suggested in a major publication (can't remember which!!) that they break DC up into many states so Dems would not have to ever worry again about the Senate. I don't know that DC has to remain one territory however. If they could make DC into like 3 states I'd love it Not gonna happen of course but it would be somewhat amusing for a few moments.
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:00 pm
by Jaymann
Can this be done by a simple majority of the House and Senate? If so, I say strike why the iron is hot. And if all Repugnicans vote nay, the new state will know where it stands.
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:00 pm
by YellowKing
I'm against this because my OCD can't handle a non-even number of states.
ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:47 pm
You know that OO didn't start the discussion on this, right? It's not all that unusual for people around here to form strong opinions on things that arise in the national media and then to start discussions around them here. Maybe they had opinions on the subject before. Maybe they didn't. I know I've had an opinion on this for some time, but I don't know that I've ever discussed it here before. That doesn't make me having an opinion on it now disingenuous.
As I said, if you've had an opinion and cared about this for a long time, I apologize.
What about if you hadn't thought about it before, but now that it's come up repeatedly in national discussion you've had the chance to think about it and you've decided it's a good idea? Is that person being disingenuous?
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:14 pm
by Smoove_B
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:00 pm
I'm against this because my OCD can't handle a non-even number of states.
Well, if you believe England is the 51st state (and has been since 1986), then D.C. would be #52.
The ammunition's being passed and the lords been praised
But the wars on the televisions will never be explained
All the bankers gettin' sweaty beneath their white collars
As the pound in our pocket turns into a dollar
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:52 amIndeed. But I think we should acknowledge that slightly flawed is a far cry from comically broken.
Sure but I mean it's all in perspective. We aren't like Belgium who ranked far lower which took over a year to build a coalition government. However their caretaker government did little harm. And importantly the Belgians didn't have a party try to overturn an election and storm their parliament. Which is worse? *Shrug*
I could do the same dance all around these tiny little European nations but in the end I think it's important to think of us in different terms. We're easily the most fractured advanced economy. Considering the scale and importance for world leadership and stability maybe I'd serve up an alternative to comically broken and instead substitute tragically broken. Not trying to move goal posts but more that's how I think of this. Are we terrible compared to the world? No but if we break it'll be one of most important events in human history.
I know you keep saying it's broken, but it's clearly not.
If you don't think our government is broken I don't know what to do to convince you. It continues to function in its basics but it can't do anything consistent. We aren't acting like a serious nation at all right now. I'd leave it at agree to disagree territory there.
The EU just had a secession. How's that for a fractured advanced economy?
This idea has a lot of flaws. A non-monetary union member leaving a trade union is hardly the same. It has political implications obviously though the UK still has the same mostly functional government. The big differentiator is the EU isn't even a true fiscal union, doesn't have a single army, though some functions have a EU bureaucracy looking over their shoulder. It hardly resembles anything like our states' relationships to the federal government in the United States. It is a very different form of political entity versus a nation. Every member can just choose to notify and leave. It's an important and consequential change but the UK will pretty much act the same way except they'll just be poorer and the EU will probably soldier on.
You accepted the generalized view of that chart which shows us at the highest of the flawed democracies. Yes, trending the wrong way, but the last election is likely to reverse those trends.
How is this election going to help? I'd love specifics. My hunch is 2021 we're going to nosedive in these particular metrics and the trend will continue. Evidence? The GOP just tried to reverse an election, censured politicians who didn't go along with reversing the election, changed laws and structures to punish individuals who didn't overturn elections, shrugged at an insurrection, and in response to all this is about to gerrymander and suppress the vote all over this country. I don't see any reversing the trend in that mess.
We also just had a Federal court acknowledge law enforcement abuse of journalists and enjoin a law enforcement agency from abusing them. That is one thing that has pretty much never happened in this country. The press has been harassed in the past but there wasn't sustained flagrant targeting of the press by the police in support of a political party like we've seen since the summer of 2020. Things are going south quick here. But again this goes to the whole notion we're broken. The experts on authoritarianism tell me this is exactly what Hungary and Poland did including packing the courts with political flunkies. Maybe it'll turn out differently despite all the red alarms and experts pulling out their hair trying to explain it to people with their heads buried deep in the 'Fantasyland' ideals that Americans can't seem to shake.
I don't think I agree with your most important events in human history, though this would make for a very interesting thread. Maybe in the last 200 years, but let's be real: The US is going to be a footnote in human history. We had a nice run from the 1940's into about 2010. Our run is a fraction of the British Empire. Let alone all the real ones like Egypt or the Mongols. The second we realize we don't need to be the world's police force (long overdue), we're done as far as global importance.
Again in serious agree to disagree territory.
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:15 pm
by ImLawBoy
YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:00 pm
I'm against this because my OCD can't handle a non-even number of states.
malchior wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:14 pmHow is this election going to help? I'd love specifics.
Like Georgia having 2 Democratic Senators?
How is that going to reverse everything that is happening? They might get a couple of budget bills through. More important it was an outlier - one that the GOP hopes is erased next election in *checks notes* 2 years. Also an outcome that barely happened. And as we're going to see...it isn't going to mean much in the grand scheme.
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:54 pm
by Little Raven
ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:51 pmI'm only here to solve YK's desire for an even number of states.
malchior wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:14 pmHow is this election going to help? I'd love specifics.
Like Georgia having 2 Democratic Senators?
How is that going to reverse everything that is happening? They might get a couple of budget bills through. More important it was an outlier - one that the GOP hopes is erased next election in *checks notes* 2 years. Also an outcome that barely happened. And as we're going to see...it isn't going to mean much in the grand scheme.
Also a large chunk of what they do accomplish will be voided by the Supreme Court. Especially after 2022 when the Democrats probably won't be able to do much in response.
malchior wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:14 pmHow is this election going to help? I'd love specifics.
Like Georgia having 2 Democratic Senators?
How is that going to reverse everything that is happening? They might get a couple of budget bills through. More important it was an outlier - one that the GOP hopes is erased next election in *checks notes* 2 years. Also an outcome that barely happened. And as we're going to see...it isn't going to mean much in the grand scheme.
Also a large chunk of what they do accomplish will be voided by the Supreme Court. Especially after 2022 when the Democrats probably won't be able to do much in response.
I'm not looking forward to the too late bewilderment that happens when that inevitability is finally clear to people. People who've been watching close have been seeing them already doing some very partisan things since the middle of last year.
Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) said on Friday that he does not support a House-passed D.C. statehood bill or a sweeping bill to overhaul federal elections.
Manchin's comments, made during a radio interview with West Virginia MetroNews's Hoppy Kercheval, underscore how some of Democrats' biggest priorities face headaches even if they got rid of the 60-vote legislative filibuster — something they don't currently have the support to do.
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 12:43 am
by Smoove_B
And there it is. The beginning of the end.
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 10:12 am
by pr0ner
I hope you all weren't expecting a different result this time.
Re: D.C. Statehood
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 10:32 am
by Blackhawk
pr0ner wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 10:12 am
I hope you all weren't expecting a different result this time.
We had an opportunity for a different result. Opportunity leads to hope. Expecting? No. And yet hoping because not hoping is called 'giving up.'
Not gonna happen of course but it would be somewhat amusing for a few moments.
