Octopus Overlords

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:04 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:01 am I'm against using flavor of the month rules to fix government. It's a slippery slope. If the supreme court is expanded under Biden, what do you think is going to happen next time the Republicans have a majority?

We run headlong into full-fascism?

I genuinely believe the next set of elections has the real potential to change the course of America if the GOP regains control. If it's just Congress in 2022, they'll double down on stopping any type of legislative action from occurring. If Trump or a Trump acolyte is elected in 2024 as President? Lights out.

Right now, I think we should be doing everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen. Securing voting rights. Expanding the SCotUS. Adding D.C. as a state (for more representation).

This is where I am at. If they take the House which is very high probability then even the budget cudgel is off the table. We return to rule by EO and I suspect the GOP will manufacture a pipeline that'll streamline challenges to EO's right through their majority in the Supreme Court. The tracks and roads are all built. They just need to connect it all up.

I agree that if Trump is re-elected then we're finished. If another member of the GOP is elected...it'll depend but I don't think we're ever going to see the "end of our Democracy" in clear terms anyway in that scenario. It'll just morph into a system where they just keep winning. When you step back you have to almost admire that they've essentially already handcuffed all legislative and legal progres. Short-term policy is in the hands of Biden. Whee. I mean it is better than the alternative but let's not pretend that the GOP don't effectively control this country even if it is by saying no all the time.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:29 am

Defiant wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:24 am The respectable Republican response would be to extend the neighboring states to include the residential parts of DC, thereby giving these people representation without giving Democrats two more Senate seats.

I don't expect any such proposal to come forward from the Republican side.

They have actually. The Republican alternative is to retrocede most of DC into Maryland. They have a bill in the House and the Senate introduced as alternatives.

I'm shocked. OK, not really, but given their recent history of voter suppression, I would have thought it would have been at least as likely that a Republican would have pushed stripping DC's three electoral votes.

Oh, wait.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:01 am I'm against using flavor of the month rules to fix government. It's a slippery slope. If the supreme court is expanded under Biden, what do you think is going to happen next time the Republicans have a majority?

If we make DC a state, couldn't you divide Texas in 5?

Well, I agree with you that the ideal solution to the Senate's broader undemocratic problems would be a broader solution. But I disagree that making D.C. a state is just "flavor of the month", when there's been a long-standing multi-decade push to fix the D.C. misrepresentation issue, which has included statehood (including a state constitutional convention in 1982). The issue has become more pressing now because Republicans are threatening to use their overrepresentation in our political structure to cement minority rule, but this is not the reductio ad absurdum proposal on this.

It may further encourage partisans to pursue various state cut up proposals to try to gerrymander the Senate, but that's a risk that comes from the structure of the Senate and not from D.C. statehood (and really it already happened with regards to the Dakota split up and other statehood divisions in the late 19th century). And to some degree I think that proposals like the Texas breakup that highlight the absurdity of the Senate structure is more of a benefit than a drawback, as it will encourage broader discussions on Senate fixes.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:04 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:01 am I'm against using flavor of the month rules to fix government. It's a slippery slope. If the supreme court is expanded under Biden, what do you think is going to happen next time the Republicans have a majority?

We run headlong into full-fascism?

I genuinely believe the next set of elections has the real potential to change the course of America if the GOP regains control. If it's just Congress in 2022, they'll double down on stopping any type of legislative action from occurring. If Trump or a Trump acolyte is elected in 2024 as President? Lights out.

Right now, I think we should be doing everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen. Securing voting rights. Expanding the SCotUS. Adding D.C. as a state (for more representation).

This is what the majority of this board was afraid of in the last election. That all Trump's appointees would rig it in his favor. Instead, we had the FBI saying it was the safest election ever and the courts backed it up in 60 something lawsuits.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:16 amIt may further encourage partisans to pursue various state cut up proposals to try to gerrymander the Senate, but that's a risk that comes from the structure of the Senate and not from D.C. statehood (and really it already happened with regards to the Dakota split up and other statehood divisions in the late 19th century). And to some degree I think that proposals like the Texas breakup that highlight the absurdity of the Senate structure is more of a benefit than a drawback, as it will encourage broader discussions on Senate fixes.

Right this gets into the history rhymes aspect of all this. The last time we started fighting over the number of states was due to a clear issue that we couldn't settle in our system. We have many unsolvable issues.

More importantly though they system blew up after a long period of cold war where the parties of the time played a game that tried to preserve the spirit of Democracy. In this case, the GOP isn't even playing ball. They aren't trying to preserve a "legitimate" ruling structure which is why this is a pressing emergency IMO.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:20 am

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:04 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:01 am I'm against using flavor of the month rules to fix government. It's a slippery slope. If the supreme court is expanded under Biden, what do you think is going to happen next time the Republicans have a majority?

We run headlong into full-fascism?

I genuinely believe the next set of elections has the real potential to change the course of America if the GOP regains control. If it's just Congress in 2022, they'll double down on stopping any type of legislative action from occurring. If Trump or a Trump acolyte is elected in 2024 as President? Lights out.

Right now, I think we should be doing everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen. Securing voting rights. Expanding the SCotUS. Adding D.C. as a state (for more representation).

This is what the majority of this board was afraid of in the last election. That all Trump's appointees would rig it in his favor. Instead, we had the FBI saying it was the safest election ever and the courts backed it up in 60 something lawsuits.

So the 1/6 riot and state Republicans responding to it by working to dismantle protections against state legislatures overriding the voting results has made you *less* concerned?

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:20 amThis is what the majority of this board was afraid of in the last election. That all Trump's appointees would rig it in his favor. Instead, we had the FBI saying it was the safest election ever and the courts backed it up in 60 something lawsuits.

I mean sure but they still tried to overturn the election. That it held by its fingernails is hardly a triumph of stability. Trump put pressure on elected officials in multiple jurisdictions. They held and then were stripped of power or punished by their party for not stealing the election. The Capitol was invaded. I'm glad it worked out short-term but this is clearly a system in a failing state.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:24 am So the 1/6 riot and state Republicans responding to it by working to dismantle protections against state legislatures overriding the voting results has made you *less* concerned?

It's not binary.

Of course the 1/6 riot is an issue. It's how we respond to it. Currently, there's a whole lot of folks going to jail, and there needs to be a commission to find out what went wrong. IMO, it's a MUCH bigger issue than a commission to pack the Supreme Court.

Georgia is another problem, but the popular response... including corporate response ... has been heartening. In Texas, Matthew McConaughey is polling well ahead of Abbott.

The GOP is behaving like a beaten group. If there is a big shift in the mid-terms, I reserve the right to change my mind. But right now, being extreme doesn't strike me as the best move.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:29 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:24 am So the 1/6 riot and state Republicans responding to it by working to dismantle protections against state legislatures overriding the voting results has made you *less* concerned?

It's not binary.

Of course the 1/6 riot is an issue. It's how we respond to it. Currently, there's a whole lot of folks going to jail, and there needs to be a commission to find out what went wrong. IMO, it's a MUCH bigger issue than a commission to pack the Supreme Court.

Georgia is another problem, but the popular response... including corporate response ... has been heartening. In Texas, Matthew McConaughey is polling well ahead of Abbott.

The GOP is behaving like a beaten group. If there is a big shift in the mid-terms, I reserve the right to change my mind. But right now, being extreme doesn't strike me as the best move.

This is like looking at these issues through a cardboard tube in the rain.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:31 amThis is like looking at these issues through a cardboard tube in the rain.

Yes, yes. I know you're terrified.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:29 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:24 am So the 1/6 riot and state Republicans responding to it by working to dismantle protections against state legislatures overriding the voting results has made you *less* concerned?

It's not binary.

Of course the 1/6 riot is an issue. It's how we respond to it. Currently, there's a whole lot of folks going to jail, and there needs to be a commission to find out what went wrong. IMO, it's a MUCH bigger issue than a commission to pack the Supreme Court.

Georgia is another problem, but the popular response... including corporate response ... has been heartening. In Texas, Matthew McConaughey is polling well ahead of Abbott.

The GOP is behaving like a beaten group. If there is a big shift in the mid-terms, I reserve the right to change my mind. But right now, being extreme doesn't strike me as the best move.

Look, in any event the key parts of this are these: (1) D.C. is a distinct place with its own history and identity, separate from that of Maryland or Virginia; (2) citizens of D.C. deserve representation, and there's no compelling reason to deny representation to U.S. citizens based on where in the country they choose to live; (3) that Democrats favor statehood, and Republicans oppose it, in part for partisan reasons, doesn't provide a compelling reason to deny D.C. statehood.

That the GOP is in the process of pushing haphazardly for cemented minority rule is in some ways a side issue, but it is another reason to favor statehood.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:36 am Look, in any event the key parts of this are these: (1) D.C. is a distinct place with its own history and identity, separate from that of Maryland or Virginia; (2) citizens of D.C. deserve representation, and there's no compelling reason to deny representation to U.S. citizens based on where in the country they choose to live; (3) that Democrats favor statehood, and Republicans oppose it, in part for partisan reasons, doesn't provide a compelling reason to deny D.C. statehood.

That the GOP is in the process of pushing haphazardly for cemented minority rule is in some ways a side issue, but it is another reason to favor statehood.

I find it interesting this has been a "problem" for 250 years, but it needs to be addressed now.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:38 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:36 am Look, in any event the key parts of this are these: (1) D.C. is a distinct place with its own history and identity, separate from that of Maryland or Virginia; (2) citizens of D.C. deserve representation, and there's no compelling reason to deny representation to U.S. citizens based on where in the country they choose to live; (3) that Democrats favor statehood, and Republicans oppose it, in part for partisan reasons, doesn't provide a compelling reason to deny D.C. statehood.

That the GOP is in the process of pushing haphazardly for cemented minority rule is in some ways a side issue, but it is another reason to favor statehood.

I find it interesting this has been a "problem" for 250 years, but it needs to be addressed now.

Is there a compelling reason not to address it now?

Look, we've already talked about reasons why it's more compelling to act now than at other times, but do you have any particular reason why you want us to wait?

Like, I find it interesting that you haven't really offered any D.C.-specific reason to not grant them statehood now. Seems to be more concern about the optics of granting D.C. statehood.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:36 am

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:31 amThis is like looking at these issues through a cardboard tube in the rain.

Yes, yes. I know you're terrified.

I'm actually not terrified. I'm not a person in the crosshairs here. I'll probably be fine in their new order. I'm more so a guy who has been listening to experts who've been saying this for years. And they've been right over and over. But paint away that people who believe this are extremists. The time to be a contrarian centrist is well past over.

Slavery was a problem for hundreds of years before we addressed it. Just because an issue hasn't been addressed doesn't mean it's not an issue.

noxiousdog wrote:

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:36 am Look, in any event the key parts of this are these: (1) D.C. is a distinct place with its own history and identity, separate from that of Maryland or Virginia; (2) citizens of D.C. deserve representation, and there's no compelling reason to deny representation to U.S. citizens based on where in the country they choose to live; (3) that Democrats favor statehood, and Republicans oppose it, in part for partisan reasons, doesn't provide a compelling reason to deny D.C. statehood.

That the GOP is in the process of pushing haphazardly for cemented minority rule is in some ways a side issue, but it is another reason to favor statehood.

I find it interesting this has been a "problem" for 250 years, but it needs to be addressed now.

There are a lot of things that aren't a problem till they are.

It's not the fall, its the sudden stop.

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LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:02 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:44 am

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:01 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

If they wanted it that badly, there's plenty of states to live. An estimated 300,000 commute daily from Maryland or Virginia.

Thats a particularly gross attitude. You could say that if the original colonists wanted representation they could have moved to England. Asking citizens to move from their home - a good many of which do not have the financial means to do so - in order to have a voice in government is horrible. I hope I am missing sarcasm in your post.

Oh, yes. A 10 minute commute, when 1/3 of the city already does it, is such a hardship.. especially when there's plenty of mass transit.

You don't think moving to Maryland is the same as a six week ocean crossing to re-enter religious persecution or indentured servitude?

You live in Chicago. Are you going to tell me that everyone within Chicago proper has the ability to simply pick up and move to a different area? There is plenty of mass transit there too.

It may as well be a six week ocean crossing and given the population is majority black there is an argument to make that they are already living with persecution regardless of any move within our nation. Suggesting that they can all just pick up and move in order to have representation is simply offensive.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:29 amThe GOP is behaving like a beaten group. If there is a big shift in the mid-terms, I reserve the right to change my mind. But right now, being extreme doesn't strike me as the best move.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:38 amI find it interesting this has been a "problem" for 250 years, but it needs to be addressed now.

If you wait until after the Republicans do well in the midterms to decide it is time to act you will have missed the chance to act, Mr. Chamberlain.

Also, I don't view granting citizens of the US representation as "extreme".

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:53 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:02 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:44 am

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:01 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:52 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm The whole idea of the District of Columbia was so he nations capital wouldn't be in a state and be unduly influenced by that state. So what the hell is this interest in making it a state? Rhode Island getting tired of being picked on?

Democrats want two more senators. That's the reason.

Yes, and that Republicans don't want it for that reason. Setting aside the politics, though, it is also true that the citizens of DC want the same representation that other American citizens get, and that there isn't much logical reason to deny it to them.

If they wanted it that badly, there's plenty of states to live. An estimated 300,000 commute daily from Maryland or Virginia.

Thats a particularly gross attitude. You could say that if the original colonists wanted representation they could have moved to England. Asking citizens to move from their home - a good many of which do not have the financial means to do so - in order to have a voice in government is horrible. I hope I am missing sarcasm in your post.

Oh, yes. A 10 minute commute, when 1/3 of the city already does it, is such a hardship.. especially when there's plenty of mass transit.

You don't think moving to Maryland is the same as a six week ocean crossing to re-enter religious persecution or indentured servitude?

You live in Chicago. Are you going to tell me that everyone within Chicago proper has the ability to simply pick up and move to a different area? There is plenty of mass transit there too.

It may as well be a six week ocean crossing and given the population is majority black there is an argument to make that they are already living with persecution regardless of any move within our nation. Suggesting that they can all just pick up and move in order to have representation is simply offensive.

Chicago is 234 mi^2. Washington DC - 68 mi^2.

Nobody is suggesting pick up and move. We're suggesting that over the course of their life, if that is it was important to them, maybe they would have moved to the suburbs.

You're not actually suggesting that many people are born, live, and die in the same residence their entire lives?

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:58 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:29 amThe GOP is behaving like a beaten group. If there is a big shift in the mid-terms, I reserve the right to change my mind. But right now, being extreme doesn't strike me as the best move.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:38 amI find it interesting this has been a "problem" for 250 years, but it needs to be addressed now.

If you wait until after the Republicans do well in the midterms to decide it is time to act you will have missed the chance to act, Mr. Chamberlain.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:58 amChicago is 234 mi^2. Washington DC - 68 mi^2.

Nobody is suggesting pick up and move. We're suggesting that over the course of their life, if that is it was important to them, maybe they would have moved to the suburbs.

You're not actually suggesting that many people are born, live, and die in the same residence their entire lives?

You're not actually suggesting that there are not people within both areas without the means to choose to move are you?

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:03 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:58 amChicago is 234 mi^2. Washington DC - 68 mi^2.

Nobody is suggesting pick up and move. We're suggesting that over the course of their life, if that is it was important to them, maybe they would have moved to the suburbs.

You're not actually suggesting that many people are born, live, and die in the same residence their entire lives?

You're not actually suggesting that there are not people within both areas without the means to choose to move are you?

Or that many folks were long red-lined into living in DC for exactly this purpose.

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:03 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:58 amChicago is 234 mi^2. Washington DC - 68 mi^2.

Nobody is suggesting pick up and move. We're suggesting that over the course of their life, if that is it was important to them, maybe they would have moved to the suburbs.

You're not actually suggesting that many people are born, live, and die in the same residence their entire lives?

You're not actually suggesting that there are not people within both areas without the means to choose to move are you?

Ever? Like in their entire adult life?

Um, then yes, I'm suggesting that we not capriciously add two senators so that a handful of people don't have to move 10 miles in order to have a tiny impact on national legislation.

Note: if this were to happen, they would have about 2.5 times more representation ... just in the House ... than I would.

This is why I think you guys, with the exception of malchior ... and I know he's spoken to this before, are being completely disingenuous. Want to fix representation problems? Fix the Representatives:citizen problem.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:11 pm Note: if this were to happen, they would have about 2.5 times more representation ... just in the House ... than I would.

If representation is important to you, you could move to Wyoming.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:12 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:11 pm Note: if this were to happen, they would have about 2.5 times more representation ... just in the House ... than I would.

If representation is important to you, you could move to Wyoming.

Right. It's not. But if it were; I would.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:14 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:12 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:11 pm Note: if this were to happen, they would have about 2.5 times more representation ... just in the House ... than I would.

If representation is important to you, you could move to Wyoming.

Right. It's not.

But you already have it. They do not.

Could we extend this philosophy into voting as well? If waiting in an 8 hour line to vote is something you want to avoid, simply move to rural, white America?

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:15 pm Could we extend this philosophy into voting as well? If waiting in an 8 hour line to vote is something you want to avoid, simply move to rural, white America?

Vote with your feet...overcome all the many hurdles that your lack of representation has constantly erected in your path. Come on now! You can do it! Change America one impossible move at a time.

Political power plays are dumb regardless of which party is engaging in them.

This has absolutely no chance of happening, so let's get back to focusing on what's actually possible.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:15 pm Could we extend this philosophy into voting as well? If waiting in an 8 hour line to vote is something you want to avoid, simply move to rural, white America?

No.

Adding a ballot boxes, early voting, or extra precincts have no where near the impact of adding two senators.

The District of Columbia was set up to be free from state politics influencing the capital. Nothing has changed.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:11 pm
Note: if this were to happen, they would have about 2.5 times more representation ... just in the House ... than I would.

This is why I think you guys, with the exception of malchior ... and I know he's spoken to this before, are being completely disingenuous. Want to fix representation problems? Fix the Representatives:citizen problem.

If you're concerned about people in some states getting more representation than others based upon where they live...hoo boy are you not going to like the Senate.

I'm all for broader fixes to this problem, in addition to D.C. statehood.

Fix gerrymandering first.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:31 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:11 pm
Note: if this were to happen, they would have about 2.5 times more representation ... just in the House ... than I would.

This is why I think you guys, with the exception of malchior ... and I know he's spoken to this before, are being completely disingenuous. Want to fix representation problems? Fix the Representatives:citizen problem.

If you're concerned about people in some states getting more representation than others based upon where they live...hoo boy are you not going to like the Senate.

I'm all for broader fixes to this problem, in addition to D.C. statehood.

That's a feature; not a bug.

The House of Representatives is NOT operating as designed. I've lost about 97% of my representation from what was originally specified "The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative;"

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:33 pm Fix gerrymandering first.

Many issues are unfortunately all tied together now. We have to fix several of these problems simultaneously and the path to doing so is exceedingly narrow.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:35 pm The House of Representatives is NOT operating as designed. I've lost about 97% of my representation from what was originally specified "The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative;"

You think the House is the problem?!? I mean it could use more representatives but that is like the smallest problem in the pile.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:35 pm The House of Representatives is NOT operating as designed. I've lost about 97% of my representation from what was originally specified "The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative;"

You think the House is the problem?!? I mean it could use more representatives but that is like the smallest problem in the pile.

It would fix the House gerrymandering problem.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:43 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:41 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:35 pm The House of Representatives is NOT operating as designed. I've lost about 97% of my representation from what was originally specified "The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative;"

You think the House is the problem?!? I mean it could use more representatives but that is like the smallest problem in the pile.

It would fix the House gerrymandering problem.

There is zero chance the GOP would allow it for that reason. It also doesn't fix the EC (it helps a little though) and the Senate. But the point remains that near all the stability legs have been kicked out. Fixing the one with the least problems isn't going to do much.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:35 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:31 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:11 pm
Note: if this were to happen, they would have about 2.5 times more representation ... just in the House ... than I would.

This is why I think you guys, with the exception of malchior ... and I know he's spoken to this before, are being completely disingenuous. Want to fix representation problems? Fix the Representatives:citizen problem.

If you're concerned about people in some states getting more representation than others based upon where they live...hoo boy are you not going to like the Senate.

I'm all for broader fixes to this problem, in addition to D.C. statehood.

That's a feature; not a bug.

It's a really, really bad, anachronistic feature.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:26 pm The District of Columbia was set up to be free from state politics influencing the capital. Nothing has changed.

Heaven forbid politics influence the capital! That might have been something relevant 250 years ago, but it's a very poor argument these days.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:44 am Oh, yes. A 10 minute commute, when 1/3 of the city already does it, is such a hardship.. especially when there's plenty of mass transit.

LOLOLOLOLOL.

A 10 minute commute from VA or Maryland into DC? And plenty of mass transit?

LOLOLOLOLOL.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:14 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:12 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:11 pm Note: if this were to happen, they would have about 2.5 times more representation ... just in the House ... than I would.

If representation is important to you, you could move to Wyoming.

Right. It's not. But if it were; I would.

If congress removed your community's ability to vote for a Representative and Senators, and you were offered the option of losing it or moving ten miles to regain it, would you say "no big deal"?