Good and Evil in Video Games (imported discussion)
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:15 am
A thread about the portrayal of evil in video games, of black, white, gray, evil vs petty, about the ends justifying the means, and about moral relativism.
We've had this discussion before (and I always enjoy it.) It deserves its own thread. I'm importing a few posts from the Mass Effect thread to get it rolling.
We've had this discussion before (and I always enjoy it.) It deserves its own thread. I'm importing a few posts from the Mass Effect thread to get it rolling.
Skinypupy wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:30 pmSame. I'm always a goody-two-shoes in every game I play. I've only tried taking the "evil" path in a couple games, and have found it causes me to enjoy the game significantly less. I particularly recall a dark side situation in KOTOR (between Zaalbar and Mission) that damn near ruined the entire game for me.
I also generally tend to play as dudes, as it's a little more difficult to put myself in the character's shoes if I'm the opposite gender.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:43 pm I don't dislike evil play throughs of games, but very few games actually support it with real motivations for bad guy characters or evil actions that advance those motivations (as opposed to the usual video game evil of rude or greedy.) . The Mass Effect story, for instance, makes no sense if Shepard is evil. A good guy savior, sure. A hard ass military career man, sure. But evil? It just doesn't work.
Want to make games with great evil options? Make the evil choices easier than the good choices. Want the infected planet for colonization? Make curing the plague to earn the natives' support for a treaty difficult, but make letting them die off while you work on something else easy, giving even better access to the planet.
That's how 'evil' happens in real life. It's always a temptation to take the easy route or the route that benefits you the most at a cost to others when the option that benefits everyone is hard work.
El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 4:11 pmDragon Age 1 did a great job of this. The 'evil' options weren't comic book evil (you were still saving the world), but they were more ruthless. Like for the quest line at the mage tower, the trouble there was that some mages got possessed by Demons and the paladin order was threatening to exterminate all of them to deal with that. The 'evil' option is essentially to let the Paladins do that. The 'good' option is to go in and fight the demons and undo the possession that way.Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 2:43 pm I don't dislike evil play throughs of games, but very few games actually support it with real motivations for bad guy characters or evil actions that advance those motivations (as opposed to the usual video game evil of rude or greedy.) . The Mass Effect story, for instance, makes no sense if Shepard is evil. A good guy savior, sure. A hard ass military career man, sure. But evil? It just doesn't work.
Want to make games with great evil options? Make the evil choices easier than the good choices. Want the infected planet for colonization? Make curing the plague to earn the natives' support for a treaty difficult, but make letting them die off while you work on something else easy, giving even better access to the planet.
That's how 'evil' happens in real life. It's always a temptation to take the easy route or the route that benefits you the most at a cost to others when the option that benefits everyone is hard work.
Sudy wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 11:18 pm As for "evil choices", I'm sure a few games have done a decent job, but in Bioware games it's mostly been window dressing, hasn't it? Yeah, there may be some major plot divergences that individual choices build toward, but it's hard for them to devote design time to truly branching paths. In open-world games a lot amounts to reputation changes with various factions. I started a KOTOR evil playthrough, but it felt horrible even though it was more of a "muahaha" evil. But even in the Star Wars universe where good/evil, light/dark is well defined, it still didn't seem realistic because outside of some admonishments, most of the good-leaning companions would stand by you.
If we're talking true evil rather than "grumpy/selfish", I doubt many players are going to opt for that path. Mostly it will be those who are doing a new game+ type of run and want to see any content they missed. I think I'd rather have a Machiavellian/sociopathic alternative to a chaotic evil one.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 10:01 amThere's certainly a space between rude/greedy/petty and Jeffrey Dahmer/Hitler. There is a middle ground wherein lie the Mitch McConnels and Christopher Columbuses (people who achieve their ends regardless of human cost - they aren't driven to make people suffer, they just don't take it into account as long as their side wins), or even the fringe cases - the Thomas Edisons and George Pattons (people who did achieved important things despite (because of?) being terrible human beings.) Movies are starting to get bad guys right. Killmonger from Black Panther was a great example. Magneto in the X-Men. Let us play a sci-fi early James Bond, who casually executed people because the evil act was the smart move. Let us play a fantasy Jack Bauer who saved the day with incredibly terrible acts! Give us Roy Batty dilemmas!Sudy wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 11:18 pm If we're talking true evil rather than "grumpy/selfish", I doubt many players are going to opt for that path. Mostly it will be those who are doing a new game+ type of run and want to see any content they missed. I think I'd rather have a Machiavellian/sociopathic alternative to a chaotic evil one.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 10:09 am To add to that, bring in cultural differences more, and let it go both directions. Let the classic hero's clear choice involve something seen as pure evil by the people he wants to save (I'm seeing some Babylon 5 here.) Let the traditions that the traditional hero sees as awful be seen as absolute expressions of the greatest good and love by people he's dealing with (like so many cultures saw human sacrifice - as a heroic act that saved lives.)
Put the hero in the position of having to decide whether to force his 'classic' morality tropes on others, and have there be consequences. Let him act heroically (in his mind) and become the villain to the people he saves. There is so much interesting storytelling that could be done here.
But instead we get to ask for an extra five gold. Or insist on keeping the farmer's heirloom sword for ourselves. Or give smarmy answers.