Octopus Overlords

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:12 pm It's essentially a hand held PC that allows you to play all the games in your steam library.

I thought it was SteamOS (linux based). That would mean about 20% of the games in your library. You could buy a windows license and install it for 100%.

Regardless, it's only a fraction of them that will play effectively given the interface and screen size. Some will have elements too small to see, others will have controls that just don't translate well.

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:04 pm I am confused. Is this for playing games on Steam or console games?

It's supposed to bridge the gap by allowing you to play your Steam library in a portable manner. It's got its own version of SteamOS to boot.

Hrothgar wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:05 pm I thought it was SteamOS (linux based). That would mean about 20% of the games in your library. You could buy a windows license and install it for 100%.

Which does make me wonder. Steam in general has awful compatibility support. You'd probably be better off installing GOG Galaxy on it which seems to be friendlier towards Linux, even for games that weren't originally on Linux.

This also leads me to wonder, seeing that Valve redesigned SteamOS for the Deck, if others like EGS and GOG Galaxy will have similar redesigns optimized for it.

Chraolic wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:42 am

ChaoZ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:26 am Where did you hear this? On the IGN Q&A, the developers said the internal storage is not upgradable, leading me to believe it's actually soldered in.

Yeah, it does seem a bit odd if it was that easy, pretty much everybody would just get a WD Blue or something and have the 500 GB model but $200 cheaper. Without the anti-glare coating and special carrying case, granted, but I could easily sacrifice those for $200.

yes, i should have mentioned they did say 'not end-user replaceable'. sooooo.. not really feasible for a lot of people, but if you have some soldering experience, it could it be a possibility.

Rumpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:33 pm

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:04 pm I am confused. Is this for playing games on Steam or console games?

It's supposed to bridge the gap by allowing you to play your Steam library in a portable manner. It's got its own version of SteamOS to boot.

Hrothgar wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:05 pm I thought it was SteamOS (linux based). That would mean about 20% of the games in your library. You could buy a windows license and install it for 100%.

Which does make me wonder. Steam in general has awful compatibility support. You'd probably be better off installing GOG Galaxy on it which seems to be friendlier towards Linux, even for games that weren't originally on Linux.

This also leads me to wonder, seeing that Valve redesigned SteamOS for the Deck, if others like EGS and GOG Galaxy will have similar redesigns optimized for it.

don't forget about WiNE/Proton. many older 'Windows-only' titles will be playable on this. (i would forget about newer Windows-only 3D titles running an acceptable frame rate on here - or at all)

So, you can only play 20% of your Steam games?

if you want to see what the 'playable on Linux' status is of any Windows-only game on Steam, reference

https://www.protondb.com/

I knew it was SteamOS, but I assumed that all the games offered on Steam would work with it. Are you folks saying that there ARE some games in Steam that won't work with the Steam Deck until you basically mod it to run Windows?

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:27 pm I knew it was SteamOS, but I assumed that all the games offered on Steam would work with it. Are you folks saying that there ARE some games in Steam that won't work with the Steam Deck until you basically mod it to run Windows?

Err, maybe? My understanding is that there will be a software emulation layer to allow games to run on Linux, but it remains to be seen how that affects performance soo... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:27 pm I knew it was SteamOS, but I assumed that all the games offered on Steam would work with it. Are you folks saying that there ARE some games in Steam that won't work with the Steam Deck until you basically mod it to run Windows?

It's not completely clear.
Steam just posted a video aimed at developers. It says at 4:08 that it does not require porting and that in all likelihood it will work out of the box. I'm skeptical, especially for old titles on Steam that may no longer have much of any developer support.

Perhaps we need a Linux gamer to chime in here. Since Valve will be in charge of any drivers for the Steam Deck on Steam OS, I figure that's one major headache out of the way?

ChaoZ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:57 pm They tried this. The Steam Machine concept flopped, mostly because they didn't think through the relationship with hardware vendors. Maybe if the Steamdeck takes off they'll come up with more iterations.

True. I think their dipshit controller went a long way to killing the Steam Machine but yes I applauded the idea but not the execution.

I guess if TV makers will stop adding dots to screens (Seriously, will anyone be able to distinguish between 4K and 8K?) a small form factor, affordable gaming PC may become a reality.

I believe in regards to the Steam Switch - there is nothing preventing you putting Windows on it - though of course I imagine you will have less free space available if you do.

Well, it doesn't seem very user friendly (at least to olde folks) and has a limited game base.

ChaoZ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:45 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:27 pm I knew it was SteamOS, but I assumed that all the games offered on Steam would work with it. Are you folks saying that there ARE some games in Steam that won't work with the Steam Deck until you basically mod it to run Windows?

It's not completely clear.
Steam just posted a video aimed at developers. It says at 4:08 that it does not require porting and that in all likelihood it will work out of the box. I'm skeptical, especially for old titles on Steam that may no longer have much of any developer support.

Perhaps we need a Linux gamer to chime in here. Since Valve will be in charge of any drivers for the Steam Deck on Steam OS, I figure that's one major headache out of the way?

i thought i explained above, but maybe i have to break it down more....

obviously, Windows and *NIX systems are absolutely completely different operating systems, with no compatibility at all. it's like putting an Xbox disc in a Playstation console - not sure this was obvious to everyone. for some years now, however, there has existed such programs like WiNE (WiNE is Not an Emulator) which is a sort of Windows OS call replacement/compatibility layer package to allow Unix OS systems to run Windows applications (see wikipedia entry here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software) ).

a few years ago, Valve announced Proton, which is an 'enhanced', Valve-funded collaboration with the WiNE development community (see wikipedia entry here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_(software) ) which forks this technology and enhances it specifically for gaming purposes. it works exceedingly well, and was a LITERAL GAME-CHANGER for establishing viability for gaming on Linux when specific Linux builds are not cross-compiled/built/distributed by the original game developer - this can not be emphasized enough.

having said that, not all games 'work out of the box'. many games can and will use system calls and the like that are not already supported, and WiNE/Proton needs to be updated to handle all these special situations. titles can receive an update from the developer and stop working as well - or stop working completely, needing another WiNE/Proton update. titles with tricky DRM can be foiled for porting for a long time without original developer support, and online anti-cheat systems for multiplayer are especially, incredibly difficult to get working correctly - if ever. but - i would say older titles (if not encumbered with DRM) would be _easier_ to get working. developer support is not needed if extreme obfuscation (DRM) is not used, and the framerate hit from a less resource-intensive title that results from utilizing a compatibility layer becomes less and less an issue on modern machines.

if indeed Valve is serious about Windows-only titles working 'out of the box' on SteamOS 3.0 (based on Arch Linux), i would say they must have managed to wrangle a huge support team to proactively handle compatibility issues? i am not at all clear on this.

if software developers could switch to using Vulkan instead of DirectX API for graphics, a huge pain point could be eliminated for cross-platform distribution.

again, if you have any curiosity on how any given Windows game runs on Linux under Proton, look it up on this page: https://www.protondb.com/

keep in mind that a lot of really old games can run on Linux no problem with long-established virtual machine emulators (e.g. MS-DOS games will run on DOSBox on many different system architectures, not just Linux: https://www.dosbox.com/ - GOG already goes this route. also, MAME and many console and arcade emulators have Linux builds as well.)

also keep in mind that Android and ChromeOS are Linux-based OSes, and OS X and iOS are originally based on OpenBSD, which is a UNIX-like OS! in fact, all games that are streamed in Google Stadia are running from specially-created Linux builds, NOT Windows ones. this is why Microsoft is doubling/tripling down on its gaming division - they absolutely want to hold onto their overwhelming share of the home PC gaming market - it really is a near monopoly.

anyways, if anyone is still not clear on this, feel free to ask questions and i will do my best to answer.

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:28 pm

ChaoZ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:45 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:27 pm I knew it was SteamOS, but I assumed that all the games offered on Steam would work with it. Are you folks saying that there ARE some games in Steam that won't work with the Steam Deck until you basically mod it to run Windows?

It's not completely clear.
Steam just posted a video aimed at developers. It says at 4:08 that it does not require porting and that in all likelihood it will work out of the box. I'm skeptical, especially for old titles on Steam that may no longer have much of any developer support.

Perhaps we need a Linux gamer to chime in here. Since Valve will be in charge of any drivers for the Steam Deck on Steam OS, I figure that's one major headache out of the way?

i thought i explained above, but maybe i have to break it down more....

obviously, Windows and *NIX systems are absolutely completely different operating systems, with no compatibility at all. it's like putting an Xbox disc in a Playstation console - not sure this was obvious to everyone. for some years now, however, there has existed such programs like WiNE (WiNE is Not an Emulator) which is a sort of Windows OS call replacement/compatibility layer package to allow Unix OS systems to run Windows applications (see wikipedia entry here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software) ).

a few years ago, Valve announced Proton, which is an 'enhanced', Valve-funded collaboration with the WiNE development community (see wikipedia entry here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_(software) ) which forks this technology and enhances it specifically for gaming purposes. it works exceedingly well, and was a LITERAL GAME-CHANGER for establishing viability for gaming on Linux when specific Linux builds are not cross-compiled/built/distributed by the original game developer - this can not be emphasized enough.

having said that, not all games 'work out of the box'. many games can and will use system calls and the like that are not already supported, and WiNE/Proton needs to be updated to handle all these special situations. titles can receive an update from the developer and stop working as well - or stop working completely, needing another WiNE/Proton update. titles with tricky DRM can be foiled for porting for a long time without original developer support, and online anti-cheat systems for multiplayer are especially, incredibly difficult to get working correctly - if ever. but - i would say older titles (if not encumbered with DRM) would be _easier_ to get working. developer support is not needed if extreme obfuscation (DRM) is not used, and the framerate hit from a less resource-intensive title that results from utilizing a compatibility layer becomes less and less an issue on modern machines.

if indeed Valve is serious about Windows-only titles working 'out of the box' on SteamOS 3.0 (based on Arch Linux), i would say they must have managed to wrangle a huge support team to proactively handle compatibility issues? i am not at all clear on this.

if software developers could switch to using Vulkan instead of DirectX API for graphics, a huge pain point could be eliminated for cross-platform distribution.

again, if you have any curiosity on how any given Windows game runs on Linux under Proton, look it up on this page: https://www.protondb.com/

So if I'm clear on this, it's really up to the Proton team to "optimize" a Windows title to run with Proton?
I had a poke around ProtonDB and connected it to my Steam account. It seems a good share of my owned games is at the Gold+ level of compatibility, so that's good. Just 7 titles downright borked.

I know Linux users are generally more open to tinkering to get the results they want, but Steam Deck better be a helluva lot more plug and play!

ChaoZ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:10 pm
So if I'm clear on this, it's really up to the Proton team to "optimize" a Windows title to run with Proton?

yes. so i'm anticipating Valve staffing up their in-house Proton dev group, in an attempt to minimize problems with new titles running on Steam Deck. if this is so, i would also anticipate compatibility increasing for older titles as well, which is only good news for the Linux gaming community.

and again, any given dev team could do work to make their Window-only titles function easier and better through Proton. support for this, however, is alllll across the spectrum. needless to say, the majority of Windows-only dev teams do not make this a priority at all.

Makes a lot more sense now that you explain it, but I wonder why they haven't put a compatibility tab on the Steam Deck website, as I would think that would be one of the most important aspects of the machine.

Rumpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:49 pm Makes a lot more sense now that you explain it, but I wonder why they haven't put a compatibility tab on the Steam Deck website, as I would think that would be one of the most important aspects of the machine.

it remains to be seen if Valve actually wants to qualify the exact levels of compatibility with any supported game title. i'm sure there will be a website created (probably not by Valve) where, like protondb, users can submit reports on Steam Deck performance/FPS and the recommended quality settings to use on specific games.

to me, it's still kinda miraculous that something like Proton exists at all - this whole running modern games on OSes they were not coded for was all black magic two decades back, and 'nowhere-near-good-enough' a decade ago. i wonder if, due to the arrival of the Steam Deck, the development of native Linux ports will ratchet back up (it's generally dropped a bit since the arrival of Proton), or if Windows development trends to become more Proton friendly. i suspect some of both will happen.


i think Zwitterbacke and Anonymous Bosch may be the only other people on this board (that i know of) who game in Linux desktop PC setups. if there are others, let me know.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:12 pm It's essentially a hand held PC that allows you to play all the games in your steam library.

Not all games. Only games that can run in SteamOS (Linux).

You can install Windows but that is probably for advanced users. We don't know how easy or hard to do that until Steam Deck is released.

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:07 pm i wonder if, due to the arrival of the Steam Deck, the development of native Linux ports will ratchet back up (it's generally dropped a bit since the arrival of Proton), or if Windows development trends to become more Proton friendly. i suspect some of both will happen.

Yeah, if anything, I wouldn't be surprised if due to the pull Valve has, that this ends up improving the state of linux gaming as a whole.

Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:03 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:12 pm It's essentially a hand held PC that allows you to play all the games in your steam library.

Not all games. Only games that can run in SteamOS (Linux).

to clarify, again (and to try to prevent any more confusion) these would be:

1) Native Linux titles and ports (that can run within the Deck's specifications)
2) Proton-supported Windows-only titles (that can run within the Deck's specifications)

Rumpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:07 pm

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:07 pm i wonder if, due to the arrival of the Steam Deck, the development of native Linux ports will ratchet back up (it's generally dropped a bit since the arrival of Proton), or if Windows development trends to become more Proton friendly. i suspect some of both will happen.

Yeah, if anything, I wouldn't be surprised if due to the pull Valve has, that this ends up improving the state of linux gaming as a whole.

The thing with Valve is that so far all their hardware initiatives failed.

Still we get something from those failure. Steam Machines and Steam Link hardware failed but we got Steam Link app from it that allow us to stream to android or ios. Also got proton which was probably developed to make something like Steam Deck or future SteamOS machines possible. Steam Controller failed but we got the great controller support in Steam client that allow you to use XBOX 360, Xbox One, PS4, PS5, etc. with remapping feature.

This is the only real mention of compatibility concerns I could find in the material:

For Deck, we're vastly improving Proton's game compatibility and support for anti-cheat solutions by working directly with the vendors.

Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:12 pm
The thing with Valve is that so far all their hardware initiatives failed.

Well, 3rd time's the charm then?

My Brother got a Valve Index, and I think that despite the slow VR adoption rate, that it's been their one hardware success to date.

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:07 pmi think Zwitterbacke and Anonymous Bosch may be the only other people on this board (that i know of) who game in Linux desktop PC setups. if there are others, let me know.

I do on occasion but IMO it isn't worth the squeeze unless you need Linux for some other purpose.

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:02 pm

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:07 pmi think Zwitterbacke and Anonymous Bosch may be the only other people on this board (that i know of) who game in Linux desktop PC setups. if there are others, let me know.

I do on occasion but IMO it isn't worth the squeeze unless you need Linux for some other purpose.

'worth the squeeze' ? no comprende

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:16 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:02 pm

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:07 pmi think Zwitterbacke and Anonymous Bosch may be the only other people on this board (that i know of) who game in Linux desktop PC setups. if there are others, let me know.

I do on occasion but IMO it isn't worth the squeeze unless you need Linux for some other purpose.

'worth the squeeze' ? no comprende

The juice isn't worth the squeeze is the long-hand here.

Could someone really comfortable with Linux squeeze more out of a particular rig since Linux is more tunable? Sure it's possible, but I find that the learning curve and overall usability does not provide enough value compared to that effort for most folks.

i will say i actually miss the MS-DOS command line and felt right at home in the Linux terminal, but yes, that aspect of working in an OS has limited appeal nowadays

I think it's great that Valve takes risks like this on potentially disruptive hardware.

On the other hand, I would really prefer they make Portal 3!

JCC wrote:I think it's great that Valve takes risks like this on potentially disruptive hardware.

On the other hand, I would really prefer they make Portal 3!

I think u meant half life 3

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naednek wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:56 am

JCC wrote:I think it's great that Valve takes risks like this on potentially disruptive hardware.

On the other hand, I would really prefer they make Portal 3!

I think u meant half life 3

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. Half Life 1 I got bored with before finishing it. I did play HL2 and the first expansion and liked them. But Portal 2 is by far my favorite Valve game - and it's not close.

I could see myself buying a Steam Deck when my current PC stops being able to run new releases. My gaming has moved to consoles so much, and I find myself less and less interested in the idea of upgrading my PC.

JCC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:09 pm

naednek wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:56 am

JCC wrote:I think it's great that Valve takes risks like this on potentially disruptive hardware.

On the other hand, I would really prefer they make Portal 3!

I think u meant half life 3

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. Half Life 1 I got bored with before finishing it. I did play HL2 and the first expansion and liked them. But Portal 2 is by far my favorite Valve game - and it's not close.

I was recently reminded just how bad an ending Episode 2 got, essentially a cliffhanger ending on a rather depressing note. It of course makes sense they'd make Portal 2 with a lot of humor via a full-length game given the whiplash they gave everyone with Ep2, and I guess it only served to distance Valve from the episodic model.

wonderpug wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:59 pm I could see myself buying a Steam Deck when my current PC stops being able to run new releases. My gaming has moved to consoles so much, and I find myself less and less interested in the idea of upgrading my PC.

I've considered handhelds before and even tried games on a tablet and my phone, but I just find a big screen monitor so much more immersive.

jztemple2 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:50 pm

wonderpug wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:59 pm I could see myself buying a Steam Deck when my current PC stops being able to run new releases. My gaming has moved to consoles so much, and I find myself less and less interested in the idea of upgrading my PC.

I've considered handhelds before and even tried games on a tablet and my phone, but I just find a big screen monitor so much more immersive.

Doesn't the Steam deck dock somehow with a big screen TV the way a Switch does? Or did I imagine that?

wonderpug wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:33 pm Doesn't the Steam deck dock somehow with a big screen TV the way a Switch does? Or did I imagine that?

Yes, though some are pointing out maybe not as well for all games.

Valve has tested lots of games on the Steam Deck and is shooting for at least 30 fps in as many games as possible. According to the company, they are hitting and exceeding those targets in most games. But that’s in portable mode, running games at 800p. Docking the Steam Deck to a 1080p TV or higher-resolution monitor would require more power and if the dock isn’t going to provide that it’s very likely in that scenario that some higher-end games could suffer performance issues.

Rumpy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:20 pm

JCC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:09 pm

naednek wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:56 am

JCC wrote:I think it's great that Valve takes risks like this on potentially disruptive hardware.

On the other hand, I would really prefer they make Portal 3!

I think u meant half life 3

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. Half Life 1 I got bored with before finishing it. I did play HL2 and the first expansion and liked them. But Portal 2 is by far my favorite Valve game - and it's not close.

I was recently reminded just how bad an ending Episode 2 got, essentially a cliffhanger ending on a rather depressing note. It of course makes sense they'd make Portal 2 with a lot of humor via a full-length game given the whiplash they gave everyone with Ep2, and I guess it only served to distance Valve from the episodic model.

See Half-life Alex on this...

Montag wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:09 pm

Rumpy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:20 pm

JCC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:09 pm

naednek wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:56 am

JCC wrote:I think it's great that Valve takes risks like this on potentially disruptive hardware.

On the other hand, I would really prefer they make Portal 3!

I think u meant half life 3

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. Half Life 1 I got bored with before finishing it. I did play HL2 and the first expansion and liked them. But Portal 2 is by far my favorite Valve game - and it's not close.

I was recently reminded just how bad an ending Episode 2 got, essentially a cliffhanger ending on a rather depressing note. It of course makes sense they'd make Portal 2 with a lot of humor via a full-length game given the whiplash they gave everyone with Ep2, and I guess it only served to distance Valve from the episodic model.

See Half-life Alex on this...

That's just it. I likely won't as I'm not getting any VR anytime soon.

Interesting, both what the internals look like and the repeated “don’t do this, really!” warnings sprinkled throughout.

Ars Technica takes a look at Steam Deck compatibility and the types of issues that cause games to be rated as playable but not fully verified.

Here’s why some games aren’t “verified” for Steam Deck compatibility

Back in October, Valve laid out the specific review guidelines that a Steam game would have to follow to earn an optional "Deck Verified" badge on its Steam Store page. Now, the results of the first of those verification reviews are starting to leak out, and they're showing some minor input and interface issues across a handful of games running on Steam Deck.

While the Deck Verified badges have yet to show up on the Steam Store itself, the metadata surrounding the program is already being added to the Steam backend for some titles ahead of the Steam Deck's planned launch next month, as picked up by services like SteamDB. Of the 86 games with verification review results so far, 41 have at least one issue preventing them from receiving a full "Verified" badge.

First, the good news: Almost all of those un-verified games are still rated as "Playable" under Steam's guidelines. Only five reviewed games so far have received the dreaded Steam Deck "Unsupported" badge from Valve. Four are virtual reality games, which fail for the simple listed reason that "Steam Deck Does Not Support VR Games." The fifth, Persona 4 Golden, seems to fail because in-game videos use a problematic Windows Media Player codec that could be difficult to implement through Steam Deck's Linux Proton compatibility layer. "Valve is still working on adding support for this game on Steam Deck," the game's metadata says.

Every single "Playable" or "Verified" game, on the other hand, has a "default graphics configuration [that] performs well on Steam Deck." That lines up with Valve's July promise that the Steam Deck will be able to run "really the entire Steam library" at 30 fps with the device's native 800p resolution.

Ive had ZERO interest in this. I haven't even posted in this thread before. Until I saw it the other day . Wow its like a big pretty PSP. I like it. Now I want one. Not $500 want one but if I could afford a cheaper one I would.