Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:11 pm**

Today I learned that JMS is planning to reboot Babylon 5 over at The CW. Looks like they're skipping straight ahead to having John Sheridan be the captain of the station rather than Jeffrey Sinclair.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:13 pm**

I should probably get around to finishing B5 at some point. I got about 1/3 of the way into Season 4 before wandering off.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:18 pm**

This isn't going to last long. People today don't have the patience for shows that have the kind of overarching storyline that B5 did. I mean it took 2 or 3 seasons for some things to pay off.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:22 pm**

What I don't understand is why TV producers (especially high profile ones) don't ask for a 2 or 3 season commitment right off the bat. Or studios don't just film an entire series right at the start.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be expensive but it'd make sense for a lot of reasons. Actors salaries (a huge part of the shows expenses) are never lower then at the very beginning and syndication rights, for even a non well received show can be substantial. Especially if they get past 50.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:29 pm**

Babylon 5's story has already been told. I'm nowhere near as excited about a reboot that retells it than I would be about an original story that builds on the setting.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:51 pm**

Max Peck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:29 pm Babylon 5's story has already been told. I'm nowhere near as excited about a reboot that retells it than I would be about an original story that builds on the setting.

Yeah, I agree with that. The only caveat is that the Shadow War in B5 got kind of a slapdash / shitty resolution because JMS was worried about getting canceled after season 4 and so had to wrap things up way sooner than he had planned. So if he could somehow just reboot seasons 4 and 5, that would be great.

But otherwise...yeah I'd prefer it if it were a new series set in the B5 universe.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:55 pm**

The CW, you say? So we'll get pouting 19 year old Sheridan running a station full of other pouting late teens who obviously worked with various interstellar modelling agencies before being assigned to Babylon 5 because they "don't like authority, man!".

Oh, and someone will have supernatural powers, and there may possibly be a vampire or two in the crew.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:55 pm**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:51 pm
Max Peck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:29 pm Babylon 5's story has already been told. I'm nowhere near as excited about a reboot that retells it than I would be about an original story that builds on the setting.
Yeah, I agree with that. The only caveat is that the Shadow War in B5 got kind of a slapdash / shitty resolution because JMS was worried about getting canceled after season 4 and so had to wrap things up way sooner than he had planned. So if he could somehow just reboot seasons 4 and 5, that would be great.

But otherwise...yeah I'd prefer it if it were a new series set in the B5 universe.

To be fair to JMS, he tried that multiple times. Crusade, Legend of the Rangers, The Lost Tales. Things never went anywhere.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:58 pm**

I'm surprised that JMS would actually sign on to do a straight-up reboot that covers the same ground as the original series. I'm hoping that he has something more interesting in mind than what the initial reporting is saying.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:43 pm**

Got all of the olde on DVD. Don't really care.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:56 pm**

Max Peck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:58 pmI'm surprised that JMS would actually sign on to do a straight-up reboot that covers the same ground as the original series.

Given that this is being made for the CW, I don't think old farts like us are the target audience. I imagine this is about telling the B5 story to a new generation, who could be forgiven for not wanting to suffer through "Infection."

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:37 pm**

Reboot? That's... confusing news. Perhaps it might work as a reboot a la Battlestar Galactica, but that was a different situation in which the original series was much more conventional. 28 years later, I think Babylon 5 would work better as a TNG-style evolved sequel. But who knows. It may be a little late and on the nose, but another Earth forces fascism story might be appropriate. Then you can pull out an "ancient evil that stayed behind" plot, only things aren't exactly what they seem. But the possibility of going straight back to controlling space angels vs. space demons seems a little simplistic for the modern political climate.

pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:55 pm
Max Peck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:29 pm But otherwise...yeah I'd prefer it if it were a new series set in the B5 universe.
To be fair to JMS, he tried that multiple times. Crusade, Legend of the Rangers, The Lost Tales. Things never went anywhere.

True, but even the most recent of those was 14 years ago. It's a much different era of television now. But a reboot produced as, I assume, a traditional series for The CW is certainly not the path I would ever have expected. I'm more surprised Warner Brothers sees a moneymaking potential all of a sudden.

The other thing holding back continuous projects were the untimely deaths of so many of the original cast members. Sometimes I wonder if JMS's standards and expectations were also a hindrance, though I'm a devotee by no means... those who worship him as a creator may have better (likely one-sided) insights.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:41 pm**

dbt1949 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:43 pm Got all of the olde on DVD. Don't really care.

What happened to your Betamax?

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:34 pm**

JMS speaks:

And Claudia Christian seems to be saying that at least some of the surviving original cast members may be involved in some manner.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:49 pm**

I'm pretty conflicted here. On one hand, it's probably my favorite sci-fi TV story (and second favorite sci-fi TV series), and I really don't think it's suitable for a reboot. But then it's JMS. He is the one person who could claim to be able to so.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:12 pm**

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:41 pm
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:43 pm Got all of the olde on DVD. Don't really care.
What happened to your Betamax?

I, for one, was too smart for Beta Max. About the only technology I was too smart for.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:13 pm**

I was gonna re watch it but pulled out Voyager instead. Crappy show but Seven of Nine.......!

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:23 pm**

Is it really a story that needs to be retold? Unless it's a dramatically different, better show (eg, the BSG reboot), I'd rather have a new show than a show retelling a story that's already been told.

(That said, the first two seasons could have been much better - the first, especially, was a struggle to get through. But I'd rather have new shows than reboots)

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:25 pm**

I skipped the first season in my collection.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:29 pm**

Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:18 pm This isn't going to last long. People today don't have the patience for shows that have the kind of overarching storyline that B5 did. I mean it took 2 or 3 seasons for some things to pay off.

Serial storytelling is actually more popular today, certainly in comparison to when B5 was originally broadcast, when it was extremely rare. (streaming and maybe DVD sets may have helped in that).

That said, B5's took a while for the serial storyline to become the focus, though, and the writing at the beginning was pretty poor. (DS9, I would argue, did that kind of mix between episodic and serial storytelling much better, IMO).

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:08 pm**

Defiant wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:29 pm
Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:18 pm This isn't going to last long. People today don't have the patience for shows that have the kind of overarching storyline that B5 did. I mean it took 2 or 3 seasons for some things to pay off.
Serial storytelling is actually more popular today, certainly in comparison to when B5 was originally broadcast, when it was extremely rare. (streaming and maybe DVD sets may have helped in that).

That said, B5's took a while for the serial storyline to become the focus, though, and the writing at the beginning was pretty poor. (DS9, I would argue, did that kind of mix between episodic and serial storytelling much better, IMO).

Perhaps. But the CW been the network leads me to think that it will be a tweenie show featuring 20 and 30 somethings playing teenagers, as stated above. Nothx. Maybe if the CW was still KTLA or affiliated with MGM it might have been okay.

Posted: **Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:43 pm**

Well, now I can't help but think of this scene from Stargate SG1...

Posted: **Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:21 am**

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:13 pm I should probably get around to finishing B5 at some point. I got about 1/3 of the way into Season 4 before wandering off.

I think I watched a couple of episodes of season 5. I think.

Posted: **Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:53 am**

I am intrigued by this news. If it's truly a reboot and it's going to retell the same story, I hope the shadow war gets a better resolution than "We don't need you! Go home!"

Posted: **Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:37 am**

I think the series wrapped up rather nicely and is a favorite mine. I don’t know how a reboot would unfold and don’t really see the need but I’m willing to be happily surprised. We’ll always have the original series.

Posted: **Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:03 pm**

If JMS is doing it, I'd really prefer to see something like what they did with Star Trek TOS and TNG - jump ahead a few decades and tell us about how they turned the lights back on.

Posted: **Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:18 pm**

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:03 pm If JMS is doing it, I'd really prefer to see something like what they did with Star Trek TOS and TNG - jump ahead a few decades and tell us about how they turned the lights back on.

They can't exactly call a new station in the same timeline Babylon 5, though! The place got blown up in the finale.

Posted: **Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:27 pm**

I could see JMS taking better advantage of binge watching and an “existing” IP to tell a better story. I liked Babylon 5 but it was much better to watch on DVD when you could get to the payoff of the earlier stories.

Posted: **Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:35 pm**

pr0ner wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:18 pm
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:03 pm If JMS is doing it, I'd really prefer to see something like what they did with Star Trek TOS and TNG - jump ahead a few decades and tell us about how they turned the lights back on.
They can't exactly call a new station in the same timeline Babylon 5, though! The place got blown up in the finale.

You're right. I'd forgotten about that - I remembered the 'turning out the lights' scene and thought that was the finale (it's been probably ten years since I've seen it.)

Posted: **Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:01 pm**

pr0ner wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:18 pm
They can't exactly call a new station in the same timeline Babylon 5, though! The place got blown up in the finale.

So...Babylon 6? Babylon 5.1? Sumeria 1.0?

It's going to be new, with new characters and a new plot (I would think). It might be good, it might not. lf not, it will achieve it's deserved fate. Hopefully it is good, and it will be successful.

Posted: **Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:33 am**

From some of the comments, I'm guessing not everyone read JMS's twitter thread, so here is the full text of his statement confirming the project by way of Facebook. I miss the days when all you had to do to keep up with him was log into GEnie (or Compuserve if you were weird, or usenet if you were cool).

To answer all the questions, yes, it’s true, Babylon 5 is now in active development as a series for the CW. We have some serious fans over at the network, and they’re eager to see this show happen. I’m hip deep into writing the pilot now, and will be running the series upon pickup. The network understands the uniqueness of Babylon 5 and is giving me a great deal of latitude with the storytelling.

As noted in the announcement, this is a reboot from the ground up rather than a continuation, for several reasons. Heraclitus wrote, “You cannot step in the same river twice, for the river has changed, and you have changed.” In the years since B5, I’ve done a ton of other TV shows and movies, adding an equal number of tools to my toolbox, all of which I can bring to bear on the question: if I were creating Babylon 5 today, for the first time, knowing what I now know as a writer, what would it look like? How would it use all the storytelling tools and technological resources available in 2021 that were not on hand then? How can it be used to reflect the world in which we live, and the questions we are asking and confronting every day? Fans regularly point out how prescient the show was and is of our current world; it would be fun to take a shot at looking further down the road.

So we will not be retelling the same story in the same way because of what Heraclitus said about the river. There would be no fun and no surprises. Better to go the way of Westworld or Battlestar Galactica where you take the original elements that are evergreens and put them in a blender with a ton of new, challenging ideas, to create something both fresh and familiar.

To those who have asked why we’re not just doing a continuation…for a network series like this, it can’t be done because over half our cast are still stubbornly on the other side of the Rim. How do you telling continuing story of our original Londo without the original Vir? Or G’Kar? How do you tell Sheridan’s story without Delenn? Or the story of B5 without Franklin? Garibaldi? Zack?

The original Babylon 5 was ridiculously innovative: the first to use CGI to create ships and characters, and among the very first to shoot widescreen with a vigorous 5.1 mix. Most of all, for the first time, Babylon 5 introduced viewers accustomed to episodic television to the concept of a five-year arc with a pre-planned beginning, middle and end…creating a brand new paradigm for television storytelling that has subsequently become the norm. That tradition for innovation will continue in this new iteration, and I hope to create additional new forms of storytelling that will further push the television medium to the edge of what’s possible.

Let me conclude by just saying how supportive and enthusiastic everyone at the CW has been and is being with this project. They understand the unique position Babylon 5 occupies both in television and with its legions of fans, and are doing everything they can to ensure the maximum in creative freedom, a new story that will bring in new viewers while honoring all that has come before.

Somehow, I don't believe this is going to be a CW teen drama, but I could be wrong...

Posted: **Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:45 pm**

Max Peck wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:33 am From some of the comments, I'm guessing not everyone read JMS's twitter thread,

The next twitter thread I read will be my first. Get the fuck off my lawn!

The success or failure will depend on two things: the writing, and the talent of the cast. For that reason, all shows have to prove they are worthy of my time, no exceptions.

Posted: **Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:16 am**

Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:18 pm This isn't going to last long. People today don't have the patience for shows that have the kind of overarching storyline that B5 did. I mean it took 2 or 3 seasons for some things to pay off.

I can't believe you said this. Overarching storylines have been the thing now for years. Some of the top shows have been non-episodic in nature - The Sopranos, Game of Thrones, etc. Heck, all of the Marvel Disney shows, The Mandalorian, Star Trek Discovery, all of these had overarching long term plots and are not episodic in nature.

It's like you haven't watched TV in 10 - 15 years.

Posted: **Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:22 am**

I'm excited about this. I loved Babylon 5, it intrigued me from the beginning because of the overarching plot. As far as I can remember, it was TV show that used that device, and it drew me in. It was fascinating watching the story develop, and it had some amazing character development/growth. Watching the bumbling Lando Molari succumb to temptation, him and his hated enemy G'Karr becoming friends, Vir changing from a mere lackey to someone with real agency, it was wonderful story telling. Looking forward to what they can do with the story telling and much much better CGI.

Posted: **Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:42 am**

Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:16 am I can't believe you said this. Overarching storylines have been the thing now for years. Some of the top shows have been non-episodic in nature - The Sopranos, Game of Thrones, etc. Heck, all of the Marvel Disney shows, The Mandalorian, Star Trek Discovery, all of these had overarching long term plots and are not episodic in nature.

It's like you haven't watched TV in 10 - 15 years.

I think there's a caveat: overarching storylines work great on non-network shows. For the simple reason that Disney+ or CBS All Access or HBO won't keep bumping new episodes of the show for a football game, or "mid-season break" or decide that they want to show it on a different night because ratings. When people wait for several weeks to see a new episode, then two weeks later the network shows another re-run, and a month later they take a 3-month break, many viewers don't return because they get tired of waiting for this epic storyline to resolve and just say "screw it, I'll wait for the whole season to be out", which hurts ratings and causes the show to get canceled.

Also doesn't hurt that most of these shows have 10 or fewer episodes per season, so they don't have to add "filler" episodes to meet the contractual obligations (while the usual 22-24 episode season is mostly a thing of the past, there's still an expectation of at least 16-18 episodes). The exception is the Sopranos, which was the holdover from the 90s, and ST: Discovery, which is produced by a "big 3" network but not actually aired on one.

Posted: **Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:36 am**

Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine are the two shows that (more or less simultaneously) proved that overarching storylines (serialized shows) could work outside of miniseries/soap operas. The networks didn't think it would work, and were barely willing to let the experiment happen. They didn't think the general public would be able to keep track of what was going on. When it turned out that people loved it, they started using it elsewhere. Prior to those shows you had standalone episodes on TV. Afterwards you had serialized shows. Everything from Buffy to The Sopranos to The Expanse to the MCU owes something to B5/DS9.

Posted: **Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:41 am**

gilraen wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:42 am
Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:16 am I can't believe you said this. Overarching storylines have been the thing now for years. Some of the top shows have been non-episodic in nature - The Sopranos, Game of Thrones, etc. Heck, all of the Marvel Disney shows, The Mandalorian, Star Trek Discovery, all of these had overarching long term plots and are not episodic in nature.

It's like you haven't watched TV in 10 - 15 years.
I think there's a caveat: overarching storylines work great on non-network shows. For the simple reason that Disney+ or CBS All Access or HBO won't keep bumping new episodes of the show for a football game, or "mid-season break" or decide that they want to show it on a different night because ratings. When people wait for several weeks to see a new episode, then two weeks later the network shows another re-run, and a month later they take a 3-month break, many viewers don't return because they get tired of waiting for this epic storyline to resolve and just say "screw it, I'll wait for the whole season to be out", which hurts ratings and causes the show to get canceled.

Also doesn't hurt that most of these shows have 10 or fewer episodes per season, so they don't have to add "filler" episodes to meet the contractual obligations (while the usual 22-24 episode season is mostly a thing of the past, there's still an expectation of at least 16-18 episodes). The exception is the Sopranos, which was the holdover from the 90s, and ST: Discovery, which is produced by a "big 3" network but not actually aired on one.

Networks have realized this as well, and instead of splitting 20+ episodes of shows into winter/spring seasons, have begun to show two different ~10 episode shows instead. Actors love it as well, as it lets them work more steadily (they can be on multiple shows simultaneously instead of being stuck on one with months of intermittent downtime. A lot of big name actors have begun refusing roles on shows with long seasons for just that reason.

It also helps a lot that shows can be streamed now. The biggest downside to serialized shows is that it is extremely hard to start watching the show if you haven't seen it from the beginning. Imagine if GoT was broadcast only - how many people would have watched the show if they'd had to jump in in the middle of season 4 with no background or context? Now they just take a long weekend and catch up.

Posted: **Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:32 pm**

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:49 pm I'm pretty conflicted here. On one hand, it's probably my favorite sci-fi TV story (and second favorite sci-fi TV series), and I really don't think it's suitable for a reboot. But then it's JMS. He is the one person who could claim to be able to so.

Agreed completely. I can understand his frustration at not being able to tell the original story the way he wanted due to the crazy restrictions and threat of cancellation he was constantly working under. I also have consumed enough stories he created to have a lot of faith that this isn't going to just be a retread of what happened before. I have no idea if it's going to be great - the original was amazing not only due to the writing but to the amazing performances. But if there's one creator that's on my must watch list, it's JMS.

Posted: **Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:45 pm**

The universe and the station itself had such a unique, special personality that it really made the show shine.

I don't know how that will fit in to a modern, Post-GoT, must-have-gritty-realism world. A character like Londo simply wouldn't work in a universe flavored like The Expanse.

Posted: **Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:47 pm**

Honestly I'm kind of excited about the nerd rage that will result from any tweaks to the original casting. Like, PLEASE let Garibaldi be played by an African-American woman. The outrage will be glorious to behold.

Octopus Overlords

Babylon 5 reboot coming from JMS

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