Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:23 am**

The kickoff is at 8 pm EST tonight. You watching? I am.

I was a little too young to follow the Watergate hearings beyond background noise, but as trump's treason makes Nixon's crimes look like amateur hour, these sessions ought to be even more consequential.

One hopes that the public will pay attention and that it will matter.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:23 am**

David Brook's already has declared it a failure before it starts. I definitely wouldn't say with the same confidence it will be a failure and his point isn't all that logical IMO. He would have wanted the committee to focus on threats to democracy going forward. And do it without fully plumbing the depths of what happened. His argument is we saw and have seen enough to know what happened and we need to look forward. I'd argue that they are trying to understand what happened in depth which is a fundamental component integral to the design of responses aimed at preventing the next incident.

What is the Jan. 6 committee for? Committee members and Democratic operatives have been telling reporters what they hope to achieve with the hearings that begin Thursday evening. My Times colleagues Annie Karni and Luke Broadwater wrote an article with the headline, “Jan. 6 Hearings Give Democrats a Chance to Recast Midterm Message.” Democrats, they reported, are hoping to use the hearings to show midterm voters how thoroughly Republicans are to blame for what happened that day.

Other reports have suggested other goals. The committee members are trying to show how much Donald Trump was involved with efforts to overturn the election, so he is forever discredited. They are expected to use witnesses like the former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson to show exactly what went on inside the administration that day and in the lead-up to it. One lawmaker told The Washington Post that voters have shifted their attention to issues like inflation and the pandemic, so it is key to tell a gripping story that “actually breaks through.”

No offense, but these goals are pathetic.

Using the events of Jan. 6 as campaign fodder is small-minded and likely to be ineffective. If you think you can find the magic moment that will finally discredit Donald Trump in the eyes of the electorate, you haven’t been paying attention over the last six years. Sorry, boomers, but this is not the Watergate scandal in which we need an investigation to find out who said what to whom in the Oval Office. The horrors of Jan. 6 were out in public. The shocking truth of it was what we all saw that day and what we’ve learned about the raw violence since.

We don’t need a committee to simply regurgitate what happened on Jan. 6, 2021. We need a committee that will preserve democracy on Jan. 6, 2025, and Jan. 6, 2029. We need a committee to locate the weaknesses in our democratic system and society and find ways to address them.

The last bit is a laugh to me. The weaknesses in the system? We know what it is. It's the Republican party. What the heck can we do about that with our broken constitutional order?

Edit: Updated w/ the pitchbot treatment

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:49 am**

I’m going to try and remember to tune in out of a sense of morbid curiosity and potential historical significance. I don’t think this will have an impact on anything in the short term. Anyone who is tuning in will have already had their minds made up that Jan 6th was/is a serious threat, and anyone who is a potential Trump voter is going to tune it out.

I just don’t think their messaging has a chance. From what I’ve read they are presenting this as a blockbuster prime time piece of investigative journalism. Which is great, except this isn’t the 90s anymore. Unless they also have a plan for clips to go viral on social media, this won’t have a chance at moving the needle.

The best bet IMO is that this will be a thing future historians will point to when telling the story of what went wrong with democracy in the 21st century.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:12 am**

msteelers wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:49 amI just don’t think their messaging has a chance. From what I’ve read they are presenting this as a blockbuster prime time piece of investigative journalism. Which is great, except this isn’t the 90s anymore. Unless they also have a plan for clips to go viral on social media, this won’t have a chance at moving the needle.

This is unfortunately where I land too. It isn't in the content but the format. Also, they seem to be making forced errors even on the scheduling. They announced hearing 2 is at 10 AM on Monday. Right when a very, very backed up SCOTUS might be releasing consequential rulings and drown them out. I'm honestly most curious how the big papers/stations carry this (beyond the openly insurrectionist Fox) because they need to stop with the horse race coverage. I know they are addicted to it but this isn't the time.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:18 am**

This is almost a boring as COVID.

Gas is $6/gal and Hunter Biden's ex wife wrote a tell-all book! Now that stuff is exciting!!!

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:31 am**

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:23 am The weaknesses in the system? We know what it is. It's the Republican party.

Are Republicans the weakness of the system, or are they merely abusing the weaknesses of the system?

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:41 am**

Defiant wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:31 am
malchior wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:23 am The weaknesses in the system? We know what it is. It's the Republican party.
Are Republicans the weakness of the system, or are they merely abusing the weaknesses of the system?

That is a complicated question.

Some would argue a flawed constitution - Presidential or (Republican) systems do appear to be weaker in general. And there is some truth to it but I'd argue that there is no bulletproof system and the GOP going off the rails is the cause and weakness.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:48 am**

I mean, I would blame the constiution (as well as other parts of our government that aren't in the constitution - "traditions" like the filibuster and other issues). Also, people. I would also blame the people (who could have punished Republican for the abuses of their party at the ballot).

That's the trouble with democracy. It would be a perfect system if it weren't for all the people.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:53 am**

I will add that I'm not exactly enamored with the idea of treating threats to democracy this like, well, Wrestling. Doing it more for show, holding it in prime time, trying to make bite sized viral videos or whatever. But I suppose that's what the people want.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:08 am**

I was around for Watergate, but this is different. That was before the Republicans outright denied reality and refused to cooperate with Congressional hearings without consequence. There was no social media, and the actual media reported facts that were not disputed by propaganda on the right, rather than just horse races. Nixon's threat to democracy was was dealt with and put to rest. This threat is ongoing and accelerating.

My read is that only some sacrificial grunts will be brought to justice, and the penalties will not be nearly enough. So no, I won't be watching the last pillars of democracy crumble before our eyes. Much too painful.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:15 am**

I'm sure the ~80 million American that didn't vote in 2020 will be watching.

If they really wanted to guarantee an audience, they needed to promise some type of half-time show. Definitely fireworks.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:24 am**

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:15 am
If they really wanted to guarantee an audience, they needed to promise some type of half-time show. Definitely fireworks.

Call on Johnny Depp to testify.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:27 am**

I think that would actually work. The whole thing is pointless if the people you need to convince aren't going to watch it. Fox just running normal programming is another sign of how truly f'd we are. Like we didn't know already.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:30 am**

Does anyone really think anyone is getting anything more than a wrist slap?

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:42 am**

Octavious wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:27 am I think that would actually work. The whole thing is pointless if the people you need to convince aren't going to watch it. Fox just running normal programming is another sign of how truly f'd we are. Like we didn't know already.

You are never going to convince the FOX crowd, they’ve been lost for long time now. If 4 years of Trump didn’t convince them, then a few hours of hearings won’t. The target should be those on the fence, worried about rising prices, getting them to realize that the fate of democracy in this country is more important than how far their paycheck goes.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:46 am**

Whether it moves the needle or not, I think it's important for documentation purposes. Future generations need to be able to look back at this.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:22 pm**

Ya it's just utterly depressing to know that we had people storm the capital and nothing will come of it. And worse the person responsible has a solid shot at taking office again. It's just nuts that we went from Obama to this nonsense so quickly.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:31 pm**

Octavious wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:22 pmIt's just nuts that we went from Obama to this nonsense so quickly.

It's sorta nuts until you consider that electing Obama accelerated what was happening anyway.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:53 pm**

Kevin McCarthy and other House Republicans are planning an alternative report on the Capitol attack targeting Nancy Pelosi, Capitol Police and the FBI as the January 6 committee hearings start

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:07 pm**

If Johnny Depp can win a defamation lawsuit, Kevin McCarthy and his fellow Republicans should be careful.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:48 pm**

YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:46 am Whether it moves the needle or not, I think it's important for documentation purposes. Future generations need to be able to look back at this.

They'd better hurry. The Great Records Purge is due around 2025.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:44 pm**

msteelers wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:49 am The best bet IMO is that this will be a thing future historians will point to when telling the story of what went wrong with democracy in the 21st century.

It should have two purposes: To define the historical record in detail, and to present the Justice Dept with a thorough case for criminal charges that Garland can't ignore.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:46 pm**

Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:44 pm that Garland can't ignore.

Is that a challenge? I bet he can!

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:51 pm**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:46 pm
Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:44 pm that Garland can't ignore.
Is that a challenge? I bet he can!

Seriously. I mean it dos not feel like anyone seems to be actually trying. According to a Guardian article, the 1/6 committee is claiming they can't tie Roger Stone to the Proud Boys...despite copious open source accounts of him holding rallies with them and Stone being at the war room on 1/5.

If they cant tie in Stone how the heck are they convincing anyone about anything. Maybe this is a matter of 'hard evidence'. I hope so and they still at least talk about the large volume of smoke.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:58 pm**

El Guapo wrote:
Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:44 pm that Garland can't ignore.
Is that a challenge? I bet he can!

I don’t even know what that type of evidence would look like at this point. It feels like there have been multiple charges so far that seemed clear cut that Garland has ignored.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:13 pm**

I'm watching. It's early - but I am happy they are doing this, it's important to get this on the record.

and I also believe this also does indeed force Garland more than if it was not done. Enough to get something done, who knows.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:41 pm**

They’re hitting the right notes and coming out on fire. Cheney doing a great job of laying out the case. I can only hope that it makes any kind of difference.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:51 pm**

They are doing a good job laying out their case. I’m pretty sure all that it will accomplish is to make me exceptionally upset.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:58 pm**

I watched (like so many others) on 1/6 when the Capitol attack occurred. Seeing it all now again...is something.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:04 pm**

msteelers wrote:They are doing a good job laying out their case. I’m pretty sure all that it will accomplish is to make me exceptionally upset.

Mission accomplished after that video of the attack.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:06 pm**

Smoove_B wrote:I watched (like so many others) on 1/6 when the Capitol attack occurred. Seeing it all now again...is something.

For me — it’s horrifying, shameful and disgusting. It had to feel surreal for those Capitol police to be overrun by this mob and not getting backup. It’s a scene from a bad political thriller. This is our Capitol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:07 pm**

Agreed to all. It's upsetting. It should be. America needs this fucking reminder.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:02 pm**

That was fairly good story telling. Now we see if anyone is paying attention.

The thing I think I was surprised to learn was that the Proud Boys were down there at the Capitol very early. They had begun the attack and *then* Trump sent the crowd down. That's...wild.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:09 pm**

Yeah, it's new info. Though I recall as we were talking about it that day, we were guessing that we'd ultimately find out there were smaller groups using the larger crowd as "cover" to be able to do whatever specific thing it was they were there to accomplish. Turns out, that was the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys (so far).

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:12 pm**

Dogstar wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:06 pm
Smoove_B wrote:I watched (like so many others) on 1/6 when the Capitol attack occurred. Seeing it all now again...is something.
For me — it’s horrifying, shameful and disgusting. It had to feel surreal for those Capitol police to be overrun by this mob and not getting backup. It’s a scene from a bad political thriller. This is our Capitol.

I confess to having a tear in my eye, and I'm not a weepy sort. The footage of that officer under attack, following her testimony, was gut-wrenching.

They presented a solid overview of where the next hearings are going. They have a solid, well-supported case and they're laying it out methodically. I'm not optimistic that it will hook the big fish, but I dearly hope that Merrick Garland is watching. It is crucial to the survival of our republic that 45 never sets foot in the White House again. Send him to Club Fed to spend his remaining days "writing" about his struggle.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:13 pm**

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:09 pm Yeah, it's new info. Though I recall as we were talking about it that day, we were guessing that we'd ultimately find out there were smaller groups using the larger crowd as "cover" to be able to do whatever specific thing it was they were there to accomplish. Turns out, that was the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys (so far).

Right but now it looks like the opposite in a way. The crowd was there to reinforce the attack. It wasn't mentioned but the Proud Boys made their way to one of the only unreinforced windows in the complex.

Posted: **Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:09 am**

Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:07 pm Agreed to all. It's upsetting. It should be. America needs this fucking reminder.

"Never Forget"

Posted: **Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:28 am**

I've never really noticed how many people showed up for this "peaceful demonstration" clad in body armor until I watched some of the videos they presented last night. That alone should just destroy any argument that the intent was anything but insurrection.

Posted: **Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:51 am**

The fact that they didn't bring all their 2nd amendment rights to the demonstration and come out guns blazing cast doubt on the intent for insurrection going in. That doesn't excuse the rioters who attacked the capitol during the peaceful transition of power of the emergent intent in group their think and definitely does not excuse the agitators whose intent in their speech and motivations prior to, during, and after the riot were clear.

Posted: **Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:16 am**

Open carry is not legal in DC and while concealed carry is allowed, it requires a permit and no other jurisdictions permits are accepted.

Octopus Overlords

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