Clash of the Cultures

[Kraken]

This story doesn't neatly fit into any of our other threads, so what the heck? Let's have one for the culture war.

The meat culture war looks goofy. It's deadly serious

I hadn't even realized that there was a meat culture war, but it makes sense. Real men eat meat -- aggressively and nearly exclusively.

red meat has so far mostly been used by Republicans as a cudgel to bash Democratic climate initiatives, which Donald Trump, a notorious fan of burgers himself, warned would result in a ban on cows. Increasingly, Republican politicians use the love of red meat as a general symbol of conservatism. That’s why Ryan Zinke branded a calf ahead of his run for a Montana House seat, posting the photo with the caption “Let’s Go Branding!” in a not-so-subtle nod to the far right’s rallying cry of “Let’s Go Brandon!” It’s why Iowa Senator Joni Ernst proposed banning “Meatless Mondays” and why Nebraska Governor Pete Ricketts went a step further in declaring a “Meat on the Menu” day (we suspect most Nebraskans did not need this encouragement). Across the board, the GOP has positioned itself as the political and cultural champion of meat eating, rebuffing all recent efforts to curb the consumption of meat, to price it equitably, or even to shut down slaughterhouses as the first wave of Covid-19 infection swept through them. People once wondered whether an openly gay Republican could ever win major office; today the better question is whether an openly vegan Republican could.

Having evolved as omnivores for at least 4 million years, we hominins* aren't inclined to give up meat anytime soon, and if Republicans can convince people that Democrats want them to eat bugs instead, that's going to be a win for them.

*IDK when we stopped being hominids, but the scientifically woke are all saying hominin now.

[Blackhawk]

*IDK when we stopped being hominids, but the scientifically woke are all saying hominin now.

We're both. Hominins is the branch of the evolutionary tree that includes humans and our ancestors. Hominids is the branch of the evolutionary tree that includes all great apes (including hominins.)

Think 'canine' vs 'dog' (although that's not a perfect analogy.)

[Alefroth]

Having evolved as omnivores for at least 4 million years, we hominins* aren't inclined to give up meat anytime soon, and if Republicans can convince people that Democrats want them to eat bugs instead, that's going to be a win for them.

Anyone that could be convinced of that had long ago chosen their side in the culture war.

[Blackhawk]

This also means that conservatives are going to end up with shorter lifespans.

[malchior]

This also means that conservatives are going to end up with shorter lifespans.

Just another factor in a list of negative factors such as gun violence and COVID.

[ImLawBoy]

Oddly, I had lunch over the weekend at Kuma's Corner (suburban location). Kuma's is well known in Chicago for giant burgers and heavy metal. I'd never eaten there before and it was near where I happened to be (with outdoor seating, no less) so despite the fact that I've greatly reduced my beef consumption over the last few years I decided to check it out. I had the Famous Kuma burger (10 oz patty, bacon, cheddar, fried egg on a pretzel bun) and it was massive and overwhelming. Funny thing is, though, that the place was absolutely decked out for Pride month - rainbow banners everywhere and table toppers with Pride slogans. It's the intersection of meat consumption and woke.

[Jaymann]

Were they proudly serving Bud Light?

[ImLawBoy]

Were they proudly serving Bud Light?

I doubt it. Let me morton my prior statement.

Kuma's is well known in Chicago for giant burgers, craft beer, and heavy metal.

[GreenGoo]

I grew up in a white suburban meat and potatoes household. Thank god I was able to expand my palate beyond that, and now enjoy a wide range of foods from many cultures. Many of my friends haven't.

Our health is heavily dependent on the amount of vegetables we eat. The same cannot be said with regard to meat. Yes we need protein, but we don't need 40 different proteins, and we can even get most of our protein from vegetables of various types.

I love meat. I want pepperoni on my pizza, and fat in my burgers. But it's clear that I eat too much meat and as I age, this is becoming a real problem. I often eat meals that have zero meat products in them, and quite frankly, many of them are so tasty I don't even notice the missing meat.

The pressure from climate change, health, and age have all pushed me towards eating less meat in general, and red meat in particular. Note only 1 of those items is a cultural war item.

There are plenty of reasons to eat less meat. Taking care of yourself is one of them. Are we all going to become vegan? Of course not. But most cultures can't even afford to consume the quantity of meat North America does. So they have more vegetables by default. And, it turns out, vegetables are yummy.

Edit: I still eat less healthily than I should, but I'm working on it. The idea that people would force meat on others because of politics is beyond ludicrous.

[Kraken]

I rarely order restaurant burgers because they're usually 8 oz and I can just barely eat that much with some effort. 10-12 oz is way over my limit. The burger patties I make at home are normally 6 oz, and this year I reduced them to 4 oz (although I'll probably go back up to 6 with my next batch). I'm a girlie-man, but y'all knew that already.

[stessier]

And, it turns out, vegetables are yummy.

Counterpoint - no they are not. I eat them because I know I must, not because I like them...and I like very, very few. Still, I'm not going to force anyone else into that lifestyle.

[Isgrimnur]

Texas vegetarian. Chips, salsa, refried beans, guacamole, etc. And then there's Italian with all the marinara.

[ImLawBoy]

refried beans

Gotta watch those refried beans. "Traditional" style are made with lard!

[Isgrimnur]

refried beans

Gotta watch those refried beans. "Traditional" style are made with lard!

True, but not a lot if strict vegetarianism isn't a concern.

[ImLawBoy]

We were once at a local Mexican restaurant and asked the waiter if the beans were vegetarian. He said, "Yes! There's just a little bacon for flavor."

[coopasonic]

And, it turns out, vegetables are yummy.

Counterpoint - no they are not. I eat them because I know I must, not because I like them...and I like very, very few. Still, I'm not going to force anyone else into that lifestyle.

I think I am straddling the line. I love most raw vegetables and loath most cooked vegetables.

[GreenGoo]

True, but not a lot if strict vegetarianism isn't a concern.

Exactly.

And I'm not exactly an animal activist but food animals (in the production quantities needed to support NA life styles) are treated horrifically before being slaughtered and eaten.

Hilariously, every time my wife and I find a vegetarian recipe we like, she always asks me "do you know what would make this even better? Chicken!"

I just roll my eyes and say "yes dear".

[TheMix]

And, it turns out, vegetables are yummy.

Counterpoint - no they are not. I eat them because I know I must, not because I like them...and I like very, very few. Still, I'm not going to force anyone else into that lifestyle.

I think I am straddling the line. I love most raw vegetables and loath most cooked vegetables.

Sounds like we would get along.

Though, I probably shouldn't say "most". Just that I like a lot more veggies raw than cooked.

[Blackhawk]

I'd be closer to vegetarian if more of the vegetarian options were for sale around here, and if they weren't wildly more expensive than non-vegetarian options. In any case, I still get 100% of my recommended daily vegetables, plus an extra percentage on top of that. For me it is still smoothies, mainly because I have trouble chewing most tough vegetables (and don't like them cooked into goo.) I cycle through spinach, kale, collard greens, and turnip greens, five cups raw per smoothie (which, for leafy greens, is the same as 2 1/2 cups cooked), plus I add another cup or so of carrots, broccoli, or Brussels sprouts on top of that, also raw.

[GreenGoo]

Better than I'm doing.

[Alefroth]

They're training them young in NZ.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-zealan ... vist-says/

Wellington — A New Zealand school's "cat hunt" fundraiser has caused outcry after children dangled dead feral cats in front of animal rights activists while chanting "meat, meat, meat."

[TheMix]

NZ has (well, they did 30 years ago - but it sounds like it hasn't changed ) a huge feral cat problem. And while the behavior may not have been appropriate, if the animal rights activists are decrying the killing of feral cats, perhaps they need to do a bit more reading. The article says they were protesting because someone's pet might be killed by mistake? Seriously? They really need to get their priorities in line.

[GreenGoo]

They're training them young in NZ.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-zealan ... vist-says/

Wellington — A New Zealand school's "cat hunt" fundraiser has caused outcry after children dangled dead feral cats in front of animal rights activists while chanting "meat, meat, meat."

What in the holy f**k.

Yes, feral cats are a problem for many places. The solution is mass neutering and release. It's like watching kids smash live cats against a pole (something very similar happened in the Ottawa area some years ago) and claiming it's fine, the cats are the problem.

Those kids need to be chipped so when they start skinning actual humans it's easy to find them.

[Alefroth]

NZ has (well, they did 30 years ago - but it sounds like it hasn't changed ) a huge feral cat problem. And while the behavior may not have been appropriate, if the animal rights activists are decrying the killing of feral cats, perhaps they need to do a bit more reading. The article says they were protesting because someone's pet might be killed by mistake? Seriously? They really need to get their priorities in line.

I'm willing to bet these animal activists have read more on feral cats than you have.

Trying to solve the problem by allowing 14 year olds to hunt them, who then chant 'meat, meat, meat' while dangling their corpses is definitely part of the culture clash. I guess we know which side you're on =)

[UsulofDoom]

It's not realy a clash when it's less than 3 percent vs 97%. Recently MSN had a poll "Are you a vegitarian?". based on 1,873,066 responces. 86% said no! 3% said yes but not vegan. 2% said yes and a vegan. 9% said Mostly ,but occasionally eat meat.

[TheMix]

NZ has (well, they did 30 years ago - but it sounds like it hasn't changed ) a huge feral cat problem. And while the behavior may not have been appropriate, if the animal rights activists are decrying the killing of feral cats, perhaps they need to do a bit more reading. The article says they were protesting because someone's pet might be killed by mistake? Seriously? They really need to get their priorities in line.

I'm willing to bet these animal activists have read more on feral cats than you have.

Trying to solve the problem by allowing 14 year olds to hunt them, who then chant 'meat, meat, meat' while dangling their corpses is definitely part of the culture clash. I guess we know which side you're on =)

Well, my background is in Wildlife Biology. And I worked on a study for ~6 months in New Zealand where we looked at predation on Yellow-eyed penguin eggs that was pushing them towards extinction. And I can tell you that the number one predator in New Zealand, at the time, of local species was feral cats. Especially of the ground nesting native birds.

I can also tell you that at the time they would have Easter bunny hunts. Which were literally that. So New Zealand has a long history of using hunts to thin populations of unwanted species.

Also, I did state that the behavior of the children was inappropriate.

So, for the record, my side is the side of the local species that are going extinct due to predation by feral cats. You are free to be on the side that thinks a slight risk to people's pets outweighs the extinction of entire species.

[GreenGoo]

It's not realy a clash when it's less than 3 percent vs 97%. Recently MSN had a poll "Are you a vegitarian?". based on 1,873,066 responces. 86% said no! 3% said yes but not vegan. 2% said yes and a vegan. 9% said Mostly ,but occasionally eat meat.

It's a clash for 2 reasons.

1) Vegan/Vegetarians can be militant. That's on them. If you think there aren't many vegetarians, imagine how many militant ones there are. Yeah. Not many.

2) Conservatives have decided that they need to make laws to prevent people from not eating meat.

So what we're seeing is a minuscule number of vegetarian activists triggering GOP lawmakers. They responded by trolling everyone by makes stupid laws about meat.

I can forgive activists for being passionate about what they care about, even if I think it's extreme and sometimes even wrong. I can't forgive politicians for being thin skinned babies responding with childishness that they turn into fucking LAW!

It's insane.

[Blackhawk]

Geeze, it's New Zealand. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting two protesters, you know.

Seriously, though, controlling populations through hunting is a standard wildlife management tool, and not a cruel or unbalanced one. We got rid of all of the predators, so sometimes we need to step in and do their job before our (earlier) idiocy wipes out ecosystems. And that isn't even touching on invasive or feral species. And the kids' 'hunt', which was a horrible idea was canceled, as it was a terrible idea. What ended up happening was, I think, more on the parents/supervising adults who let the behavior continue.

As to the protest itself, there are activists who understand the issues and make sure that they're standing up against the right problems, and then there are those who will march based only on their gut reaction to an issue. This was a pretty clear case of the latter. In this case, they were protesting protecting wildlife, and had they 'won', they'd have been responsible for harm to the environment (including animals) themselves.

[Jaymann]

I watched an interview with Sam Harris and he made a good point. Fringe viewpoints on both the right and left are so amplified by social media that the issues are blown way out of proportion. The average American doesn't give a rat's ass about any of this crap.

[GreenGoo]

Geeze, it's New Zealand. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting two protesters, you know.

Seriously, though, controlling populations through hunting is a standard wildlife management tool, and not a cruel or unbalanced one.

TNR. Trap - Neuter - Release.

That's how feral cat populations are successfully managed in cities.

If you want to hunt them, great. It's not likely to significantly solve your problem long term, but have at it. Teach your kids respect because otherwise they start swinging dead cats around chanting. That's...problematic.

[Holman]

Climate-wise, we don't really need to convert people to vegetarianism to have a significant impact. All we need to do is to persuade people to eat about half of the meat they're eating now.

[Blackhawk]

Geeze, it's New Zealand. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting two protesters, you know.

Seriously, though, controlling populations through hunting is a standard wildlife management tool, and not a cruel or unbalanced one.

TNR. Trap - Neuter - Release.

That's how feral cat populations are successfully managed in cities.

Maybe, but what works in cities may not work in a wild area that's 200 times the size of Los Angeles, much of it inaccessible (or hard to access) or humans, where the cats are more spread out, less accustomed to people, and where trapping would take much longer. From what I've read, they do trap, neuter, and release, but it probably just isn't fast enough in those areas to keep up with both population and and with migration. So they trap, they poison, and they shoot. And when an area is clear, they still have to go back in now and then and repeat the process as more move in from elsewhere.

[GreenGoo]

I'll just say that in the wild is a different problem, and I admit I don't understand why feral cats far from civilization would be a problem requiring high school kids to hunt them then bring their carcasses back so they can brandish them at protesters.

[Blackhawk]

I don't understand why feral cats far from civilization would be a problem requiring high school kids to hunt them then bring their carcasses back so they can brandish them at protesters.

This is something I neither proposed nor defended. I was speaking only to the question of hunting as a form of wildlife population control.

[GreenGoo]

This is something I neither proposed nor defended. I was speaking only to the question of hunting as a form of wildlife population control.

I understand. But it's more fun to include to amp up the outrage.

In the end, you need to TNR so that the other ferals don't increase breeding rate to fill in the gaps created by hunting. I mean, if you can hit the entire population in large chunks, hunting them would help to a certain extent, but cats breed fast, and if you remove population pressure they just breed faster.

I feel like the science is pretty clear on this (specifically about cats) so hunting is just a "look, we're doing things about it" approach, rather than something effective.

I have no real issue with hunting the cats. I might be a bit more sympathetic since we keep cats as pets, but if there are valid reasons for shooting them, have at it. Hopefully be a good shot to reduce suffering.

I just don't think it's going to have much effect, given what I've read. Admittedly I'm no expert, but I have looked into it before.

Also, if the kids are so convinced the cats are meat, make them eat them.

[Jaymann]

I saw some blurb on tic toc that said Chik-Fil-A has fallen out favor with the Right because of the adoption of some inclusionary policies. What's the world coming to if you can't rely on a good fascist chicken?

[GreenGoo]

If demographics data is correct, far right leaning individuals are in the decline (edit: or are they? I can't tell but they seem to be getting louder). I make no claims as to the veracity of that, but it makes sense to look for greater market share, if you're customer base is declining.

And obviously lots of people eat at chik-whatever who don't care or even know about the restaurant owner's political leanings.

In any case, being exclusionary can only work for so long.

[Blackhawk]

Oh, come on now. Chic-Fil-A stopped giving to the bad people a long time ago.

Spoiler:

Now the owner just donates out of his own accounts, and he probably gave himself a raise to compensate.

[Carpet_pissr]

I’m typing on a phone so won’t get into the details, but let’s just say that the reason the right is calling CFA ‘woke’ (and are apparently VERY hot about it if our maintenance guy is a good indication (he is) is because Newsmax told them to be upset about this.

Personally I love seeing some ‘eating their own’ every once in a while.

[Isgrimnur]

"Weird Al" Yankovic - Weasel Stomping Day