The Dark Knight - Fade to Black
Moderator: Zaxxon
- tru1cy
- Posts: 5175
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:49 am
- Location: Somewhere in Baltimore, MD
- stessier
- Posts: 29916
- Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
- Location: SC
The Dark Knight - Act 5
VOTING IS CLOSED!
Against Brendan(1): tru1cy
Votes required for offage: 3
No vote registered: Scoop
- Unagi acc tru1cy (1)
Brendan acc Brendan (1)
tru1cy acc Brendan (2)
tru1cy wd Brendan (1)
Unagi wd tru1cy (0) - Lagom acc tru1cy (1)
- tru1cy acc Brendan (2)
- Unagi acc tru1cy (2)
Brendan wd Brendan (1) - Brendan acc tru1cy (3)
Against Brendan(1): tru1cy
Votes required for offage: 3
No vote registered: Scoop
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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- stessier
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- Location: SC
The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Whipped into a...well...mild state of irritation, the mob strolled up to tru1cy. He tried to make them see the light, stuck to what had worked in the past, but no one would listen. Irked, the mob poked him to death.
Spoiler:
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Haha. Well, Lagom wins.
- Unagi
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- Location: Chicago
Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Scoop, for what it's worth...
I've just done a total re-read, looked for interactions between MrB/Theohall and Lagom/Brendan, and I gotta tell ya I can't shake the Brendan thing.
Frankly, very early on - Lagom actually does read a little like an Alfred that hadn't yet detected anything worth sharing.
Also, Mr Bubbles wasn't in hot water yet, but I don't think Mr Bubbles could resist:
Lot's of other little things like this, I'm happy to have kept him on the line so long, but I think tomorrow - which ever one of us that is alive, we should lynch Brendan. Letting you know my thoughts, just because I think it will be me that dies.
I've just done a total re-read, looked for interactions between MrB/Theohall and Lagom/Brendan, and I gotta tell ya I can't shake the Brendan thing.
Frankly, very early on - Lagom actually does read a little like an Alfred that hadn't yet detected anything worth sharing.
Lagom Lite wrote:+1Lassr wrote:maybe if/when Alfred finds one of our specials is dead then it would be a good time to come out. Otherwise silence means he's dead or no specials. How would we know which? We wouldn't, just like in every other game we play.
Lagom Lite wrote:Well since no special scanner has come out I guess we can assume no (living) scanner has identified a bad guy yet. My tru1cy hunch is as good a guess as I can make at this point so I'm keeping my vote where it is for now.
Also, Mr Bubbles wasn't in hot water yet, but I don't think Mr Bubbles could resist:
He couldn't just list all good-guys, had to put a little down on Brendan.Mr Bubbles wrote:The pool is narrowing down and they're starting to sweat. Lassr, Brendan, and Grund are all on my list.
Lot's of other little things like this, I'm happy to have kept him on the line so long, but I think tomorrow - which ever one of us that is alive, we should lynch Brendan. Letting you know my thoughts, just because I think it will be me that dies.
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
I'm 99% confident he'll kill Scoop tonight, particularly after that soliloquoy. He certainly won't kill me.
Lagom has made a bunch of claims that can't be falsified because we lacked the scanners to do so. Dent, the only one who could detect Ramirez, was dead from round 1.
Unagi, I know that you're inclined to "let" Lagom win because you feel like he's played things just right. If you'd prefer to, y'know, actually win for our team, you should consider voting for him with me. It's obviously not too late to win.
If you think back to the times that we played evil together, you'll remember how circumspect I was about making overt statements. I triple and quadruple checked all my logic on the bad guy board before posting. Does that seem like my demeanor in this game?
Lagom has made a bunch of claims that can't be falsified because we lacked the scanners to do so. Dent, the only one who could detect Ramirez, was dead from round 1.
Unagi, I know that you're inclined to "let" Lagom win because you feel like he's played things just right. If you'd prefer to, y'know, actually win for our team, you should consider voting for him with me. It's obviously not too late to win.
If you think back to the times that we played evil together, you'll remember how circumspect I was about making overt statements. I triple and quadruple checked all my logic on the bad guy board before posting. Does that seem like my demeanor in this game?
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Correction to my post - Dent wasn't dead from round 1. I just went back to make sure that it was impossible that Unagi was the bad guy (juuuuust to make sure), and I see that Remus says he was scanned by Batman and by Harvey on night one.
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Just to reiterate: Unagi, please, for me, vote for Lagom tomorrow.
- Unagi
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- Location: Chicago
Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Lagom has been scanned to be "not the Joker".
We all feel that theohall was the sniper.
If Lagom is lying, he had the option to tell us that Mr Bubbles was the Joker or Ramirez.
He could have taken a big move by claiming that Mr Bubbles was Ramirez, but didn't.
Can be viewed from a few angles, but on it's surface (and so often, it turns out the surface is the surface) it doesn't seem like he made a move when he maybe could have.
Also, I don't think there is a player in this game that hasn't voted for you yet Brendan. That includes yourself.
Sometimes a duck.
We all feel that theohall was the sniper.
If Lagom is lying, he had the option to tell us that Mr Bubbles was the Joker or Ramirez.
He could have taken a big move by claiming that Mr Bubbles was Ramirez, but didn't.
Can be viewed from a few angles, but on it's surface (and so often, it turns out the surface is the surface) it doesn't seem like he made a move when he maybe could have.
Also, I don't think there is a player in this game that hasn't voted for you yet Brendan. That includes yourself.
Sometimes a duck.
- Lagom Lite
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Sorry tru1cy.
So it turns out Grund was right all along. Big surprise...
I don't have much to say other than I'd be shocked if both Scoop and Unagi make it through the night. If both of you survive, we win since I'll be killed. If one of you survive and join me in lynching Brendan tomorrow, we win.
Choose...
So it turns out Grund was right all along. Big surprise...
I don't have much to say other than I'd be shocked if both Scoop and Unagi make it through the night. If both of you survive, we win since I'll be killed. If one of you survive and join me in lynching Brendan tomorrow, we win.
Choose...
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
- Lagom Lite
- Posts: 3414
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- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Terribly sure that Unagi is going to make it tonight, aren't we.Brendan wrote:Just to reiterate: Unagi, please, for me, vote for Lagom tomorrow.
I have to give you kudos though, for dodging through the entire game like that with Grund right on your tail. You were never really on my radar either.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
- stessier
- Posts: 29916
- Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
- Location: SC
The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
It was a weird morning in Gotham - peaceful and quiet.
The recent spate of Mob killings had significantly reduced the population of the once bustling metropolis. Gotham Eyewitness News had been shut down by Clear Channel for falling ratings, so there was no one to report on Scoop's death. From the outside, it looked like he had died peacefully in his sleep. Only upon closer inspection would it become obvious that he had been embalmed alive.
So the last three members of the city met at the local KFC. It was decided that one of them would be forced to eat the Double Down before the day was done. Who would it be?
2010 Gotham Census - Updated
The recent spate of Mob killings had significantly reduced the population of the once bustling metropolis. Gotham Eyewitness News had been shut down by Clear Channel for falling ratings, so there was no one to report on Scoop's death. From the outside, it looked like he had died peacefully in his sleep. Only upon closer inspection would it become obvious that he had been embalmed alive.
So the last three members of the city met at the local KFC. It was decided that one of them would be forced to eat the Double Down before the day was done. Who would it be?
2010 Gotham Census - Updated
- tru1cy
- Mr Bubbles
- Scoop20906
- Chaosraven
- Newcastle
- Lagom Lite
- Lassr
- Remus West
- Grundbegriff
- theohall
- Unagi
- Semaj
- Isgrimnur
- Brendan
- Sniper - will you shoot someone?
- Lynch mini-mob - get 2 of you to agree and "thy will be done"
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
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Running__ | __2014: 1300.55 miles__ | __2015: 2036.13 miles__ | __2016: 1012.75 miles__ | __2017: 1105.82 miles__ | __2018: 1318.91 miles | __2019: 2000.00 miles |
- Lagom Lite
- Posts: 3414
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- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Semaj was Commissioner Gordon.
Brendan
Do the right thing. Ye bloody yank.
Brendan
Do the right thing. Ye bloody yank.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
What? Once Chaosraven was killed, he was under no risk at all of being exposed as Ramirez. I don't understand why you would suggest that he would've done anything other than what he did. What am I missing?Unagi wrote:Lagom has been scanned to be "not the Joker".
We all feel that theohall was the sniper.
If Lagom is lying, he had the option to tell us that Mr Bubbles was the Joker or Ramirez.
He could have taken a big move by claiming that Mr Bubbles was Ramirez, but didn't.
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Yes, it's an extremely clever piece of logic on my part. "Will Lagom off the guy who has not expressed a preference about his vote, or the guy who has repeatedly made extended arguments to lynch Brendan?" One doesn't have to be William of Ockham to see how that'll turn out.Lagom Lite wrote: Terribly sure that Unagi is going to make it tonight, aren't we.
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Unagi, please read this and tell me what you think Lagom is saying.Lagom Lite wrote: I don't have much to say other than I'd be shocked if both Scoop and Unagi make it through the night. If both of you survive, we win since I'll be killed. If one of you survive and join me in lynching Brendan tomorrow, we win.
Lagom Lite
- Unagi
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
What do you mean?Brendan wrote:Unagi, please read this and tell me what you think Lagom is saying.Lagom Lite wrote: I don't have much to say other than I'd be shocked if both Scoop and Unagi make it through the night. If both of you survive, we win since I'll be killed. If one of you survive and join me in lynching Brendan tomorrow, we win.
He's saying the same damn thing you are saying.
1) He knows that Scoop and I are more "trusted" than he is
2) He points out that if we are left alive, we've already won (same as point 1)
3) and this is the big one. If I lynch you, good team wins.
That's what he is saying.
Are you trying to say that you didn't get that - or that you got something else from his post?
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Ha, I see - he's saying that he'd have been killed during the night, not by the two of you during the day. That didn't occur to me, as it was impossible for him to have been killed during the night.
Well, as far as impassioned speeches go, I've given you all I can muster. Lagom is spoofing a role that he was tailor-made for - he has all the same info (as Ramirez), he had no risk of being found out (after CR was dead), and he played it safe the whole game, so there's no paper trail to comb through.
I wish there was something else I could say that would prevent you from killing me and losing us the game, but there isn't. The end is nigh. For future games, I think it'd behoove us to test the claims of un-scannable people by executing them. Lagom's information, even had he actually been Alfred, wasn't valuable any longer.
Well, as far as impassioned speeches go, I've given you all I can muster. Lagom is spoofing a role that he was tailor-made for - he has all the same info (as Ramirez), he had no risk of being found out (after CR was dead), and he played it safe the whole game, so there's no paper trail to comb through.
I wish there was something else I could say that would prevent you from killing me and losing us the game, but there isn't. The end is nigh. For future games, I think it'd behoove us to test the claims of un-scannable people by executing them. Lagom's information, even had he actually been Alfred, wasn't valuable any longer.
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
FWIW, I'll feel responsible for having lost this for us - I should've just let Grund off me, as he would've been more effective at articulating reasons to go after Lagom.
- Lagom Lite
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Well Grund tried his best to get you lynched - it was never a matter of you "letting" him "off" you. It was the rest of us who didn't clearly see what you were doing. Personally, I found it unlikely that a bad guy would be so chatty. But Grund was right on the money. You were designated as the talkative one of the trio.Brendan wrote:FWIW, I'll feel responsible for having lost this for us - I should've just let Grund off me, as he would've been more effective at articulating reasons to go after Lagom.
Unagi, you're not seriously going to let Brendan win are you? I find your lack of voting disturbing.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Haha - designated the talkative one, huh? Do you guys actually negotiate that in your behind-the-scenes dealings?Lagom Lite wrote:Well Grund tried his best to get you lynched - it was never a matter of you "letting" him "off" you. It was the rest of us who didn't clearly see what you were doing. Personally, I found it unlikely that a bad guy would be so chatty. But Grund was right on the money. You were designated as the talkative one of the trio.Brendan wrote:FWIW, I'll feel responsible for having lost this for us - I should've just let Grund off me, as he would've been more effective at articulating reasons to go after Lagom.
Certainly I could've let Grund off me - I was happy to place the last vote on myself (because clearly either he or I "had" to die that day), but I really did think it was tru1cy. His behavior certainly gave you plenty of cover. "Well, Lagom's telling me exactly what I want to hear, and nothing contradicts the official record, so... he's probably good, right?"
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Speaking of Grund, I'd like to offer an apology for getting us into this situation with my stridency towards lynching him.
- Lagom Lite
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Wellll I don't know. My scans have had some potential value, though in these particular circumstances they were kind of gimped since I'm one of the suspects.Brendan wrote:For future games, I think it'd behoove us to test the claims of un-scannable people by executing them. Lagom's information, even had he actually been Alfred, wasn't valuable any longer.
Had circumstances been different, the Citizens could simply have lynched me to verify my scans, gathering a circle of perfect trusted. Alfred's power is one of verification by lynch, to use when a special decides to come out. For example, by me scanning theohall as the Sniper, together with Batman and Dent ruling out Joker and Ramirez, respecively, Unagi was completely cleared. The same could be said about Remus (and many others, potentially).
But yes, if we had another day (perhaps by a successful Gordon protection), lynching me to conclusively rule out some players would have been a smart play.
Alas, it's up to Unagi's judgement.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Your scans had value to your team, just not the good team - they enabled you to know that you wouldn't be scannable. You only came out as "Alfred" after Dent was dead, and after you'd learned what his scan targets had been as Remus/Lassr revealed their information.Lagom Lite wrote:Wellll I don't know. My scans have had some potential value, though in these particular circumstances they were kind of gimped since I'm one of the suspects.Brendan wrote:For future games, I think it'd behoove us to test the claims of un-scannable people by executing them. Lagom's information, even had he actually been Alfred, wasn't valuable any longer.
Scoop scanned Unagi, IIRC. Your reveal of theohall as sniper was irrelevant because the rest of us already knew implicitly based on the lack of sniper fire.Had circumstances been different, the Citizens could simply have lynched me to verify my scans, gathering a circle of perfect trusted. Alfred's power is one of verification by lynch, to use when a special decides to come out. For example, by me scanning theohall as the Sniper, together with Batman and Dent ruling out Joker and Ramirez, respecively, Unagi was completely cleared. The same could be said about Remus (and many others, potentially).
After you came out, we should've lynched you immediately. Our mistake.But yes, if we had another day (perhaps by a successful Gordon protection), lynching me to conclusively rule out some players would have been a smart play.
Alas, it's up to Unagi's judgement.
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Also, if you were the sniper, you'd have already won because you could just shoot one of us right now.Brendan wrote:Scoop scanned Unagi, IIRC. Your reveal of theohall as sniper was irrelevant because the rest of us already knew implicitly based on the lack of sniper fire.
- Lagom Lite
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
I came out when I had an interesting scan. Chaosraven was interesting. I even suggested I be lynched to cross-verify.Brendan wrote:Your scans had value to your team, just not the good team - they enabled you to know that you wouldn't be scannable. You only came out as "Alfred" after Dent was dead, and after you'd learned what his scan targets had been as Remus/Lassr revealed their information.
Look, there's simply too much that has to be true in order for me to be a bad guy. First, Newcastle or Isgrimnur must have been Alfred and the bad guys must have scanned the right one. That's 1 chance in 14 right there. Second, the way I've been playing must have been pre-planned from Day 1, as pointed out by Grund, Unagi and more - I was skimming for advice from the get-go and it's pretty visible. Third, well there is no third thing, is that clear??!?
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
You're the one of your team that survived because you got lucky with killing Newcastle and could fake the role. (I presume it was Newcastle because Isgrimnur would probably have said something en route to his death.)Lagom Lite wrote:Look, there's simply too much that has to be true in order for me to be a bad guy. First, Newcastle or Isgrimnur must have been Alfred and the bad guys must have scanned the right one. That's 1 chance in 14 right there.
Huh? I don't understand this assertion - why don't you show me some examples?Second, the way I've been playing must have been pre-planned from Day 1, as pointed out by Grund, Unagi and more - I was skimming for advice from the get-go and it's pretty visible.
- Lagom Lite
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- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 pm
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Why would I? We both know who you are. Unagi already understands what I'm talking about.Brendan wrote:Huh? I don't understand this assertion - why don't you show me some examples?Lagom Lite wrote:Second, the way I've been playing must have been pre-planned from Day 1, as pointed out by Grund, Unagi and more - I was skimming for advice from the get-go and it's pretty visible.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Riiiight. We do both know who I am, and, for that matter, who you are.Lagom Lite wrote:Why would I? We both know who you are. Unagi already understands what I'm talking about.Brendan wrote:Huh? I don't understand this assertion - why don't you show me some examples?Lagom Lite wrote:Second, the way I've been playing must have been pre-planned from Day 1, as pointed out by Grund, Unagi and more - I was skimming for advice from the get-go and it's pretty visible.
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Just went through the voting histories - you never placed a single vote on theohall or Bubbles. In the latter, you abstained entirely from voting. In the former, you voted tru1cy after voting for Scoop, what twice?
In contrast, I voted for both of them - early, and without equivocation or waffling.
In contrast, I voted for both of them - early, and without equivocation or waffling.
- Lagom Lite
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
See? There's something we can agree on at least.Brendan wrote:Riiiight. We do both know who I am, and, for that matter, who you are.Lagom Lite wrote:Why would I? We both know who you are. Unagi already understands what I'm talking about.Brendan wrote:Huh? I don't understand this assertion - why don't you show me some examples?Lagom Lite wrote:Second, the way I've been playing must have been pre-planned from Day 1, as pointed out by Grund, Unagi and more - I was skimming for advice from the get-go and it's pretty visible.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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Re: The Dark Knight - End Act 5
Yes, because Newcastle, the first guy killed, was Alfred.Unagi wrote: Frankly, very early on - Lagom actually does read a little like an Alfred that hadn't yet detected anything worth sharing.
- Lagom Lite
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
And that absolves you from guilt? Voting for fellow bad guys is the oldest trick in the book.Brendan wrote:Just went through the voting histories - you never placed a single vote on theohall or Bubbles. In the latter, you abstained entirely from voting. In the former, you voted tru1cy after voting for Scoop, what twice?
In contrast, I voted for both of them - early, and without equivocation or waffling.
I admit my bad guy-sniffing nose isn't very acute, but it's never been.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
As I articulated before, the timing-based death of theohall made it hard for you guys to react, so rather than participate (or negotiate your participation with your partners), you simply abstained. Certainly there was nothing you could say to stop the train once everyone other than theohall had participated in the thread.Lagom Lite wrote:And that absolves you from guilt? Voting for fellow bad guys is the oldest trick in the book.Brendan wrote:Just went through the voting histories - you never placed a single vote on theohall or Bubbles. In the latter, you abstained entirely from voting. In the former, you voted tru1cy after voting for Scoop, what twice?
In contrast, I voted for both of them - early, and without equivocation or waffling.
And, again, in every game I've played, bad guys place the final-1 or final-2 votes, not the 2nd or 3rd.
This is all academic because we both know what Unagi's going to do: kill me. I look forward to reading the bad guy board to see how it actually went down, as I imagine it was pretty panicked.
- Lagom Lite
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Well, regardless of how Unagi will vote, thanks for a good game.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Agreed - you did play it well, but you were definitely lucky with the opening Newcastle/Alfred kill. (As I don't think Bubbles or theohall could've pulled off a spoof of a good character as effectively or subtley.)
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
And by "agreed", I mean "good game."
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Thought of one more thing...
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Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
Shoot.Brendan wrote:Thought of one more thing...
No pun intended.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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- Posts: 1233
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:40 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
Re: The Dark Knight - Thrilling Conclusion
In this alternate universe of yours, where I'm Ramirez (and, to be clear, you've backed yourself into a corner by claiming that both the Joker and the sniper are definitively dead, leaving only Ramirez as the option), why would I continue to pretend that I'm a citizen from start to finish, rather than use my knowledge to spoof another role? Stupidity?