Seventh Sign of the Apocalypse....

Fluffernutter · Post by **Fluffernutter** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:50 pm

At my core Im a PC gamer, but lately I find myself noodling more with console games.. for a host of reasons. Probably because of my schedule (Pc Games require more time) and the fact that the most money for production goes to the more lucrative console games.

I went into my local Gamestop and the Pc game section is now a LITTLE shelf on the back of the store... AND I MEAN LITTLE.

Now, to add insult to injury.. my new issue of Computer Games is 30% CONSOLE DEDICATED.... I dont care how they glossed over it in the editorial, the BOTTOM line is there isnt enough pc content to warrant a magazine each month.

Im not saying PC GAMES ARE FINISHED, but my years in game development taught me one lesson..... THE ONLY PC GAMES that make money are the MAJOR hits.... the rest just dont sell.

In the past this has all been cylical consoles up then pcs are up.. but this dont smell good.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:03 pm

This is a surprise to you? I am a PC gamer only, but I've know the writing has been on the wall for years. People want SIMPLE. Console gaming is simple, PC gaming is not. Personally not being able to download mods and user levels for a game is the main reason (besides the controller) I don't use a console, but I suspect that to change within the next few generations of consoles

The Preacher · Post by **The Preacher** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:14 pm

I think PC gaming is dying.

/duck and cover

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:14 pm

Oh, now you'll be able to download mods and maps on consoles. But as per Xbox 2, they'll start charging you for it, then release it for free online.

They'll also withhold any map editors or tools so that they can keep making more pay maps.

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:23 pm

I think PC gaming is leaving the main stream, and honestly that's just fine with me. Making games for the mainstream is generally the fastest way to make a high fluff low content game.

I'm personally guessing that, with the rise of the internet, PC games will start disappearing (at least all but the BIG releases) from the stores and it will be the independant niche publishers that fill the void by selling over the internet.

Just my humble opinion of course,
s

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:33 pm

Sepiche wrote:I think PC gaming is leaving the main stream, and honestly that's just fine with me. Making games for the mainstream is generally the fastest way to make a high fluff low content game.

I'm personally guessing that, with the rise of the internet, PC games will start disappearing (at least all but the BIG releases) from the stores and it will be the independant niche publishers that fill the void by selling over the internet.

Just my humble opinion of course,
s

I also share your humble opinion

Harry F. Ishnuts · Post by **Harry F. Ishnuts** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:35 pm

[Link removed by godhugh]

We don't allow pimping of personal sites.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:39 pm

In my completely unoriginal opinion, PC Game's main advantages were that they far outpaced the tech in consoles, and generally had "deeper" gaming experiences. Consoles were all "zap zap zap... INCREASE SPEED, LOWER, AND CHANGE DIRECTION!"

But it's all blurring now. The people raised on the NES, SNES and Genesis... their tastes have matured and the console companies adapted. Now it's "zap zap zap... PLOT DEVELOPMENT... zap zap zap STRATEGIC DECISION".

In my completely uninsightful opinion, PC Games still rule in anthing "online", strategy, and FPS. The online portion may see some more stiff competition... but as long as those console offerings are subscription based, I think PC can still have an advantage (as long as the online stuff is still free). Strategy/FPS are easier to play with mouse/keyboard. At least the typical Civ/RTS/UT games anyway.

Basically, until Consoles can offer World of Warcraft, Civ III, and Ut2k4 and can have them played at high levels of sophistication... PC Games still have place. I think Digital Distribution is the future, eliminating overhead and all that.

Jeff Jones · Post by **Jeff Jones** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:49 pm

Sepiche wrote:I think PC gaming is leaving the main stream, and honestly that's just fine with me. Making games for the mainstream is generally the fastest way to make a high fluff low content game.

I'm personally guessing that, with the rise of the internet, PC games will start disappearing (at least all but the BIG releases) from the stores and it will be the independant niche publishers that fill the void by selling over the internet.

Just my humble opinion of course,
s

In other words, it'll return to it's roots, except instead of mail order, it'll be pay n' download.

Like others have said, that'd be just fine with me. As long we always have the Battlefronts, the Gary Grigsby's, and the Brad Wardell's of the world, everything will be ok with PC gaming.

I'm not worried.

D.A.Lewis · Post by **D.A.Lewis** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:04 pm

Back in the day when computer gaming first started (retail wise), there wasn't that much on the store shelves. Educational titles had almost as much shelf space as games. And there used to be 5 of 6 word processors the fought for your dollar. Heck, even Apple 2 had shelf space back then. The diversity of titles was amazing back then. Anybody remember Egghead? One of the first Software only stores. Very little software was sold in the big chains. Now they all have a software section. It's just too bad the market no longer supports a brick and mortar computer software only store.

But the computer gaming industry isn't going to die. There's just too many computers out here and while we might not see the days of the mid to late 90s they are always going to be new games out there to play.

But I agree with what others said, in that the distribution in the near term is going to change for a lot of computer games.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:05 pm

D.A.Lewis wrote:Back in the day when computer gaming first started (retail wise), there wasn't that much on the store shelves. Educational titles had almost as much shelf space as games. And there used to be 5 of 6 word processors the fought for your dollar. Heck, even Apple 2 had shelf space back then. The diversity of titles was amazing back then. Anybody remember Egghead? .

Such memories . . . I bought Civ and MOO at Egghead . . . alot of good memories there as I discovered PC gaming . . . then again, some real stinkers like Outpost too

martindemon · Post by **martindemon** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:33 pm

There is no console game that give me pleasure. I don't like console controllers. I also don't like the way control is implemented on consoles. I also don't mind spending 1000$ on a video card to have a better picture. I also want a keyboard and absolute complete control on my savegames. For exemple, I can save my diablo2 folder and if I die, I can exit and restore it to restore my experience. I can buy and use the mouse model I choose, and have games which were made to work with a mouse. I can add a force feedback joystick or any high end joystick ala Cougar Hotas. I can do anything I want, even mod the machine or water cool it

For me, console is like a very dull computer.

D.A.Lewis · Post by **D.A.Lewis** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:43 am

Hey MartinD, back in the day, in most CRPGs you could only save game in the Tavern. I'm sure that most console gaming will also soon adapt to save anywhere mode.

ChrisGwinn · Post by **ChrisGwinn** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:28 pm

People aren't going to stop playing games on PCs. There's an enormous number of people who own PCs who don't own game consoles, and they're going to play games. They may not be games you like or find interesting, and they may not be shrinkwrapped and sold in stores, but they're going to play them.

Cylus Maxii · Post by **Cylus Maxii** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:40 pm

Its an old nut...

Certain types of games will go to consoles and portables, and both will certainly grow much more quickly than PCs in the gaming arena. But each sector stimulates the other. Some developers will drop PC gaming in pursuit of potentially greater console revenues. Some will play both sides.

I'll bet that we will see fewer PC sequel titles and a lot more small shops. Maybe this will mean innovative games. I like strategy, sim and RPG titles the most. So I expect I will always have somebody making software for my PC.

And as CG pointed out - lots of folks have PCs and no consoles and will want games. I'd add that even if they have desktops, laptops, consoles and portables - they will probably want games for them all. The good news is that more and more people are becoming gamers and that means a healthier gaming industry and more games for all platforms.

One last note - With HTPC explosion, I see lots of folks wanting to have a device that does it all. You may someday see an Xbox card for an HTPC (With a decoder and the matching game ports). It could happen...

morlac · Post by **morlac** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:21 pm

Harry F. Ishnuts wrote: [Link removed by godhugh]

We don't allow pimping of personal sites.

You 've missed the 5 or so other times hes pimped it

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:49 pm

Grifman wrote:
D.A.Lewis wrote:Back in the day when computer gaming first started (retail wise), there wasn't that much on the store shelves. Educational titles had almost as much shelf space as games. And there used to be 5 of 6 word processors the fought for your dollar. Heck, even Apple 2 had shelf space back then. The diversity of titles was amazing back then. Anybody remember Egghead? .
Such memories . . . I bought Civ and MOO at Egghead . . . alot of good memories there as I discovered PC gaming . . . then again, some real stinkers like Outpost too

Egghead. That name sounds so familiar. Whatever happened to them? I think I picked up Outpost from there too. But I think it was marked down to like $5 so I didn't mind that it wasn't very good.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:51 pm

Fluffernutter wrote:Im not saying PC GAMES ARE FINISHED, but my years in game development taught me one lesson..... THE ONLY PC GAMES that make money are the MAJOR hits.... the rest just dont sell.

That's not quite true. Some of the small-budget indie studios (Spiderweb, Ilwinter, etc.) do ok.

Greg Wak · Post by **Greg Wak** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:53 pm

Do we have to have another pc gamming is dead/dying thread? When I first saw this stuff 5 or so years ago and egghead was going away I freaked but no more. I really think gamming is better than ever right now. The last few titles I've played have given me as much fun as any I've ever played. And new cool stuff continues to be on the horizon. People are still sinking millions into pc game budgets and that has to be for a reason. The MHZ ceiling may give us a short rest from upgrading. Yes there are issues and the hobby isn't bright shinny and new anymore but I aint worried.

baron calamity · Post by **baron calamity** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:39 pm

All I have to say on the subject

http://philsteinmeyer.com/modules/news/ ... ?storyid=8

Ridah · Post by **Ridah** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:53 pm

I simply see PC gaming moving digital, I don't see it dying. With the ability to purchase your games over the internet via download, or mail, even small developers should be able to survive.

If we want to take a look at the situation on the other side of the fence, you could say console gaming is dying as well. A few years ago Sega dissolved from the picture and Nintendo is on a similar path. Nintendo can't hang in the console business, and now with the PSP, it seems companies who are solely in the gaming business cannot hang with the likes of Sony and Microsoft who have other sources if profit. So what are we left with? God of War, which I played for two hours last night and couldn't shake the feeling that I was playing Devil May Cry with a different wardrobe? Console/portable gaming has become recycled and rehashed, with nary a unique release.

Lets pull examples of my arguement from the last month of releases. What have been some of the big ones? Brothers in Arms, Star Wars Republic Commandos, KotOR 2, Gran Turismo 4, Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, Tekken 5, Devil May Cry 3, and an assortment of PSP titles.

Of these, almost all of them are available on PC. And as we all know, the PC version is always superior. Gran Turismo 4... what's the big deal? It can't even go online and doesn't have a damage model. Tekken 5 and DMC3, are these really any sort of ground-breaking sequels that we would kill to have on PC? And don't forget, the previous iterations of each were horrible. All the PSP titles, like Twisted Metal and Wipeout, we've played before on the PSX. Untold Legends? A joke even compared to the PC RPG's that many of consider below average such as Dungeon Seige.

So where is this proof that PC games are dying again? The smaller section in stores is NOT an arguement any longer, most of us buy our games online. A lot of console gamers barely know how to manage a PC, otherwise they would probably be playing their games on it as well.

Gorath · Post by **Gorath** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:08 pm

A proof that the situation is critical can be found in Phil Steinmeyer´s article:
"[U.S.] PC game sales (inflation adjusted) have fallen by 49% since their 1999 peak."

The hardcore market is rather small. If PC games no longer get retail shelf space it will have consequences. I´m just not sure what the consequences will be.
Will the big publishers like EA and Vivendi leave the PC sector? Unlikely as long as The Sims and HL make money.
Will they limit themselves to the guranteed money makers like the aforementioned games? Possible. But then, what´s the consequence for the rest of the market? Less big PC games in the US market causes less overall shelf space and big trouble for smaller publishers in North America. But on the other hand half of Europe is still PC driven, with Eastern Europe growing. Less big PC games opens this market for the smaller publishers. I don´t want to decide what´s more important.

I think this whole discussion is too centered around the US market. North America is 40% of the world market. This is of course an important piece of the cake, but it´s nowhere near the whole cake. The consequences of a possibly dying North American retail market are very hard to asses.

Ridah · Post by **Ridah** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:11 am

"[U.S.] PC game sales (inflation adjusted) have fallen by 49% since their 1999 peak."

The keyword here being "peak". How is it compared to say, the last 10-year average? Why are we comparing this year to a peak that occured over 5 years ago? What about this year compared to 1996?

Gorath · Post by **Gorath** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:48 am

Please have a look at the graph and numbers. Then repeat your question. The downward trend after stagnation from 1996 to 1999 is so obvious that it doesn´t need any more explanation.
Comparing 2004 to 1996 instead of 1999 makes no significant difference because the numbers are almost identical. Still almost 50% down.
2004 is ~15% below the niveau of 1994.

If you want to calculate an average feel free to do so and tell us the result and your conclusions.

Fluffernutter · Post by **Fluffernutter** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:45 am

There will always be PC games around... no one can dispute that. What I am standing on the turnpike screaming is... BESIDES THE LUCRATIVE SEQUELS.. IE: Sims, Doom, Half Life, Unreal, WOW (anything blizzard really) there hasnt been much new and inovative..

I have been monitoring my local game stores shelves.. and the pc games are going back to either mail order/digital distribution or boutique shops that will be opened by rabid fans.. how far back it will deevolve remains to be seen... Will we see pc games distributed in poly bags??? I remember those days.....

I also believe alot of this is related to buying new PC's... Intel isnt as healthy as it used to be, people are keeping their pc's longer... People are sick of having obsolete machines that they need to upgrade constantly to play a game.

I have been here since the trs80 and I am sick of paying 400$ for the hottest video card when I can buy a new console and 5 games for that... I will always be a rapid pc fan... Im just sad at the state of pc gaming.

Toe · Post by **Toe** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:16 am

MMORPGs themselves are also hurting sales of other types of PC games. When a gamer is paying $13 a month to play World of Warcraft for 15 hours a week, he is unlikely to have as much money or time to spend on other games.

This is very true for me. I have not bought very many games at all since MMOL games hit the scene, mainly just the "big hitters". When my interest in DaoC started to wane a lot, I did start buying more regular games, but then WoW came along and I haven't even thought about buying another game since.

Would be interesting to see a similar graph of sales that also included subscription revenue. Lets see, for WoW alone (which is the big dog at the moment admittedly) thats $13.00 x 12 months X 1.5 million. = 234 million per year and I do not think it has even hit full stride yet.

If I was not playing WoW (or any other MMOL game), I would, without a doubt, be buying a lot of games, probably 1 per month.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:48 am

IceBear wrote:
Sepiche wrote:I think PC gaming is leaving the main stream, and honestly that's just fine with me. Making games for the mainstream is generally the fastest way to make a high fluff low content game.

I also share your humble opinion

Me too. PC gaming started as a niche hobby, and to a niche hobby it shall return...and I'm fine with that. Mass-market blockbuster hits don't interest me.

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:58 am

Fluffernutter wrote:There will always be PC games around... no one can dispute that. What I am standing on the turnpike screaming is... BESIDES THE LUCRATIVE SEQUELS.. IE: Sims, Doom, Half Life, Unreal, WOW (anything blizzard really) there hasnt been much new and inovative..

Wow. While I usually enjoy the majority of the AAA titles that come out, to say that's where the innovation is happening is just not true IMHO. Leaps and bounds in graphics? Yes indeed, but true innovation? That's debatable. I think that is the reason the independant game scene will eventually become the main outlet for games (at least innovative games) is that they are far more willing to take risks and, partly by design, partly by budget constraints, they are willing to sacrifice graphics for gameplay.

Seriously. You should start looking around at some of the many great new independant publishers and the many quality games they have been putting out lately. Matrix Games and Shrapnel Games both IMHO are leading the way.

I also don't really agree that PC Games sales will slow down because of hardware costs. Relative costs have been fairly constant for many moons now and I think most PC gamers don't even bat an eye when they go through a new upgrade cycle, but that's just my take on it.

s

steve · Post by **steve** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:44 am

Fluffernutter wrote:Now, to add insult to injury.. my new issue of Computer Games is 30% CONSOLE DEDICATED....

Um, no it isn't. There's 12 pages of console coverage, and almost 80 pages of total edit. It's about 15% of the issue.

As for PC GAMES ARE FINISHED, this discussion has been going on for the last five years. Publishers see value in PC games, as console games are no sure thing either. Most console games don't make money either.

And if PC games are dying, why are console companies like Namco, Midway, and Konami suddenly getting into PC gaming? They're hedging their bets.

Finally, the decline in revenue from 2003 to 2004 is in retail stores tracked by NPD. What's missing are online sales, direct download sales, and here's the big number, MMO subscription revenue. If you add those together, you'll probably find that PC game revenue increase in 2004.

There are literally millions of gamers spending $15/month on MMOs; that's not being counted in the PC gaming totals from NPD. And MMOs are now selling expansions as downloads, which again isn't counted.

Cylus Maxii · Post by **Cylus Maxii** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:24 pm

Per a good friend who used to be an Egghead Regional Manager:

Egghead Software survived on corporate sales for several years after CompUSA and Computer City put them out of the retail business. They also had an Internet presence for some time (Egghead.com). Egghead.com went bankrupt in the laste 90s and was bought out by Fry's and I think is now ZipZoomFly.

The former Egghead team went on to found Newegg.com (an entirely web-based business) that we all now know and love.

morlac · Post by **morlac** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:05 pm

steve wrote: As for PC GAMES ARE FINISHED, this discussion has been going on for the last five years. Publishers see value in PC games, as console games are no sure thing either. Most console games don't make money either.

And if PC games are dying, why are console companies like Namco, Midway, and Konami suddenly getting into PC gaming? They're hedging their bets.
.

Dont forget SEGA who is now also venturing into PC publishing/devolping with Matrix Online and the most popular sports sim games not to mention just having bought the guys behind Total War.

wankerjr · Post by **wankerjr** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:16 pm

Ridah wrote:Nintendo can't hang in the console business, and now with the PSP, it seems companies who are solely in the gaming business cannot hang with the likes of Sony and Microsoft who have other sources if profit.

That isn't entirely correct.

SCE is about the only thing that is keeping the Sony Corp in the black. Their consumer electronics division has not been profitable for quite a while.

Nintendo has lost primarily mindshare and is actually quite profitable.

Beer Goggles · Post by **Beer Goggles** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:20 pm

Cylus Maxii wrote:Per a good friend who used to be an Egghead Regional Manager:

Egghead Software survived on corporate sales for several years after CompUSA and Computer City put them out of the retail business. They also had an Internet presence for some time (Egghead.com). Egghead.com went bankrupt in the laste 90s and was bought out by Fry's and I think is now ZipZoomFly.

The former Egghead team went on to found Newegg.com (an entirely web-based business) that we all now know and love.

I did not know that about Newegg and ZZF.

Ridah · Post by **Ridah** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:56 pm

I'm not sure how it was 5 years ago, but it also seems like there are more foreign developers putting out good titles on PC such as Crytech with Far Cry and the team working on the upcoming STALKERS.

Padre · Post by **Padre** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:42 am

I think what we're seeing is a symptom of rising development costs for games in general, and it's just hitting the PC the hardest.

What I think we need to see is new methods of game development that don't have such sky-high budgert requirements as the current crop of AAA titles did. Indie games and "bedroom" programming are one answer. Perhaps this procedural coontent Will Wright is talking up is another - if creating all this content is taking years and billions of dollars, why not cut costs by getting the player to do it instead?

Giles Habibula · Post by **Giles Habibula** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:28 pm

Somebody up there mentioned level editors for consoles in the future.

I had to smile, picturing some poor slob with a gamepad, brow furrowed in concentration and sweating and swearing, trying like hell to get a level built.

I do realize of course that there are other ways, but that's the first image that popped into my head.

baron calamity · Post by **baron calamity** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:15 pm

Padre wrote:why not cut costs by getting the player to do it instead?

Ask the people who make Freedom Force and City of Heroes. You have to spend money policing the community so they don't rip someone else off or spend money on lawers fighting off Marvel & DC or other copy right holders.

Ridah · Post by **Ridah** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:57 pm

I had to smile, picturing some poor slob with a gamepad, brow furrowed in concentration and sweating and swearing, trying like hell to get a level built.

Yeah but then you have to keep in mind that there have already been mouse and keyboard components released for consoles, and most likely level editors will utilize them. Honestly, I'll be fine with consoles once they start allowing an alternate mouse/keyboard control scheme. I'm simply get one of those VGA adapters and play on my monitor, and life will be good once again.

Octopus Overlords

Seventh Sign of the Apocalypse....

Seventh Sign of the Apocalypse....

Re: Seventh Sign of the Apocalypse....

Re: Seventh Sign of the Apocalypse....

Re: Seventh Sign of the Apocalypse....