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Volkswagen
Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus
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Volkswagen
Volkswagen diesel cars intentionally designed to fool US smog checks.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
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- LawBeefaroni
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Re: Volkswagen
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
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Re: Volkswagen
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
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Re: Volkswagen
Yes but it didn't have its own thread. I felt like it deserved its own thread
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
- LawBeefaroni
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Re: Volkswagen
Sure, I was just pointing out that there was some good information in the other threads.Drazzil wrote:Yes but it didn't have its own thread. I felt like it deserved its own thread
I'll move my latest post here.
LawBeefaroni wrote:Had an interesting discussion with a friend about this over the weekend. He contended that GM's ignition switch thing was worse. They knew about it for 12+ years and it led to some fatalities. They were also found guilty of wire fraud. GM will only pay around $1B and face a 3 year probation after which the case will be dismissed if GM is good. I don't think anyone did jail time.stessier wrote:I heard on CNBC this morning that the Justice Department has begun an investigation into VW. The more I think about it, the more mad I get. Somebody deserves jail time. Not the rest of their lives type time, but more than a weekend.
OTOH, every single one of the VW cars was spewing higher emissions than they should have been where as only a small percentage of GM cars had switches actually fail.
It's a tough call but if GM and Toyota (and their acceleration issue) are any indication, VW won't get over a few $B max in fines in the US.
I think they should face more and I think GM and TMC should have too.
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- LawBeefaroni
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Re: Volkswagen
As for the company, like I said in the OIC thread, the question is whether this is the tip of the iceberg or not. If there were other Audi/VW cars involved or if other countries pile on, which it looks like may happen in Europe, this is only the beginning.
IIRC, Porsche owns 51% of VW. Their stock is getting killed right along with VW.
IIRC, Porsche owns 51% of VW. Their stock is getting killed right along with VW.
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Re: Volkswagen
I thought it was the other way around?LawBeefaroni wrote:As for the company, like I said in the OIC thread, the question is whether this is the tip of the iceberg or not. If there were other Audi/VW cars involved or if other countries pile on, which it looks like may happen in Europe, this is only the beginning.
IIRC, Porsche owns 51% of VW. Their stock is getting killed right along with VW.
Also, I thought it was only diesel VW that we're affected not gas ?
edit: If it continue dropping like that I might pick up some shares!
Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)
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His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
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Re: Volkswagen
On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.
My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.
My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.
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Re: Volkswagen
I'm not sure how this is R&P, but since it has it's own thread - Ars has an article with more details of how the scheme unraveled. VW has known since 12/2014 that they were in trouble.
More fun at the link.How did this all happen? To start, there had been a pattern of non-compliance in emissions observed by a joint research commission in Europe. A list of VW products dominated that list. This research commission then reached out to a non-profit group, the International Council for Clean Transportation (ICCT), to conduct investigative testing. The ICCT next funded West Virginia University (WVU) to do various tests.
Why WVU? It had experience in this sort of testing, but mainly WVU's previous work focused on commercial trucks. Sure enough, the institution had found data that showed commercial trucks in the US were out of compliance with emissions regulations in 1998, which led to a $1 billion fine levied against the trucking industry.
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- LawBeefaroni
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Re: Volkswagen
You're right, VW owns Porsche.Vorret wrote:I thought it was the other way around?LawBeefaroni wrote:As for the company, like I said in the OIC thread, the question is whether this is the tip of the iceberg or not. If there were other Audi/VW cars involved or if other countries pile on, which it looks like may happen in Europe, this is only the beginning.
IIRC, Porsche owns 51% of VW. Their stock is getting killed right along with VW.
As far as we know. It's likely that it's only diesel but there are a lot of diesels on the road in Europe.Vorret wrote: Also, I thought it was only diesel VW that we're affected not gas ?
Some people thought it was a bargain yesterday too. Eventually it will be but knowing exactly when will be a tough call.Vorret wrote: edit: If it continue dropping like that I might pick up some shares!
I know I said yesterday that I wouldn't buy a VW because of this, but if their dealerships get hit hard I imagine there will be some pretty amazing deals. Being that I'll be in the market for a new car in a few months, I'll be watching and if it's too good to pass up...Vorret wrote:Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)
Last edited by LawBeefaroni on Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
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- LawBeefaroni
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Re: Volkswagen
I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.
My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
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Re: Volkswagen
Here's another question - even if VW fixes all the cars so emissions are in compliance, it's got to effect mileage performance, right? So there's going to be a class action lawsuit from the owners for that as well as lower resale value, right. I mean, this is America after all.LawBeefaroni wrote:I know I said yesterday that I wouldn't buy a VW because of this, but if their dealerships get hit hard I imagine there will be some pretty amazing deals. Being that I'll be in the market for a new car in a few months, I'll be watching and if it's too good to pass up...Vorret wrote:Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)
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Re: Volkswagen
Oh yeah. Car owners, shareholders... No doubt the class-action shops and state AGs are falling over themselves to get the wheels in motion.stessier wrote:Here's another question - even if VW fixes all the cars so emissions are in compliance, it's got to effect mileage performance, right? So there's going to be a class action lawsuit from the owners for that as well as lower resale value, right. I mean, this is America after all.LawBeefaroni wrote:I know I said yesterday that I wouldn't buy a VW because of this, but if their dealerships get hit hard I imagine there will be some pretty amazing deals. Being that I'll be in the market for a new car in a few months, I'll be watching and if it's too good to pass up...Vorret wrote:Oh and I also bought a Golf TSI 2015 in March (oops?)
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Re: Volkswagen
I agree with you there. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the fact that this is admittedly willful from the start makes that hard sell a little easier. Quantifying the # of deaths/hospitalizations is difficult, but it's clearly > 0 and was the obvious, foreseeable result of VW's actions, and VW isn't even disputing their intent.LawBeefaroni wrote:I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.
My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.
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Re: Volkswagen
You also get into a very uncomfortable area. I mean if 450,000 cars with 40X emissions kill N number of people, then 250,000,000 cars with 1X emissions kill 14*N people. No automotive industry member or supporter or bought politician wants that on the public record.Zaxxon wrote:I agree with you there. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the fact that this is admittedly willful from the start makes that hard sell a little easier. Quantifying the # of deaths/hospitalizations is difficult, but it's clearly > 0 and was the obvious, foreseeable result of VW's actions, and VW isn't even disputing their intent.LawBeefaroni wrote:I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.
My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.
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Re: Volkswagen
I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.
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Re: Volkswagen
I'm curious how?Drazzil wrote:I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.
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Re: Volkswagen
Because standards are set by the EPA. And eventually someone will argue this is a perfect example of how government regulations are hurting corporations. If anyone thinks this will end up with anything other than a slap on the wrist, you're deluding yourself.stessier wrote:I'm curious how?Drazzil wrote:I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Volkswagen
But who set the standards doesn't matter. What matters is that someone set out to specifically violate a law to sell their product. On top of that, they trumpeted their ability to pass the law - something others have trouble doing! It's simply mind boggling that anyone thought this was a good idea. I mean, I go through quarterly legal compliance courses for my company - every employee does. To think someone group at a multibillion dollar company sat down and came up with this plan...it's inconceivable to me - and yet it happened.Smoove_B wrote:Because standards are set by the EPA. And eventually someone will argue this is a perfect example of how government regulations are hurting corporations. If anyone thinks this will end up with anything other than a slap on the wrist, you're deluding yourself.stessier wrote:I'm curious how?Drazzil wrote:I put it in R&P because I have no doubt it will get political before it's over.
The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.
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Re: Volkswagen
He drives THE Porsche, damn it! The Donald doesn't just own ANY Porsche! How dare you say that?! And how dare you not bring up the poll ratings showing him ahead in every area of life!?!Jaymann wrote:I understand Trump drives a Porsche.
He won. Period.
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Re: Volkswagen
Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.LawBeefaroni wrote:You also get into a very uncomfortable area. I mean if 450,000 cars with 40X emissions kill N number of people, then 250,000,000 cars with 1X emissions kill 14*N people. No automotive industry member or supporter or bought politician wants that on the public record.Zaxxon wrote:I agree with you there. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the fact that this is admittedly willful from the start makes that hard sell a little easier. Quantifying the # of deaths/hospitalizations is difficult, but it's clearly > 0 and was the obvious, foreseeable result of VW's actions, and VW isn't even disputing their intent.LawBeefaroni wrote:I agree but in terms of damages it's extremely difficult to quantify. And it's a tough sell too, in court and in the media. You can't put a face to a death caused directly from excess emissions but you can to someone who was burned alive in their car.Zaxxon wrote:On the fatality front, it's not as clearly visible, but this has caused a bunch of fatalities, too. 5-40x NOx from millions of vehicles for 6+ years is significant.
My guess is that the indirect influence of this 'incident' has contributed to a lot more deaths, and certainly more hospitalizations, than the GM ignition switch. And this was fully intentional from day one. I haven't found much in the way of long-term studies on NOx to back that view up, though.
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Re: Volkswagen
Unless they, too, are hiding emissions fixing software.Zaxxon wrote:Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.
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Re: Volkswagen
Sure, but there's a lot of entrenched money that doesn't want combustion engines viewed as death machines. That's why I think this will be more about "OMG Fraud! German Lies!" than "OMG Environmental Destruction!"Zaxxon wrote:Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.LawBeefaroni wrote: You also get into a very uncomfortable area. I mean if 450,000 cars with 40X emissions kill N number of people, then 250,000,000 cars with 1X emissions kill 14*N people. No automotive industry member or supporter or bought politician wants that on the public record.
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Re: Volkswagen
Well, until they're all solar/wind/hydro powered they kind of are.stessier wrote:Unless they, too, are hiding emissions fixing software.Zaxxon wrote:Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.
(BTW, a Model S cut me off this morning so screw them!)
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Re: Volkswagen
Deviatinging from the topic at hand, but even were EV power generation emissions as bad as gas (they're not, anywhere in the US), it's still a huge improvement to have it at the plant.
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Re: Volkswagen
Know you wont!stessier wrote:The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.
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Re: Volkswagen
It's a law course, not English!Unagi wrote:Know you wont!stessier wrote:The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.
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Re: Volkswagen
You mean knot English.stessier wrote:It's a law course, not English!Unagi wrote:Know you wont!stessier wrote:The legal courses always have "ripped from the headline" examples to drive home whatever the point du jour is - at least I'll no the background on this one.
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Re: Volkswagen
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Re: Volkswagen
Can we take them on long road trips yet?Zaxxon wrote: Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.
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Re: Volkswagen
He had to face down the board and test the waters. Of course, he was probably hoping they weren't going to call him 'chum'.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Volkswagen
I don't think he or anyone else expected him to stay in the position. The moment he apologized, it was over for him.
I think it was the right thing to do, rather than the "I had no idea this was happening but we will get to the bottom of it" usual crap we get. But it signaled his imminent doom.
I think it was the right thing to do, rather than the "I had no idea this was happening but we will get to the bottom of it" usual crap we get. But it signaled his imminent doom.
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Re: Volkswagen
Yep. Also, he was head of product dev. I'm sure the questioning of what he knew, when, is not over.LawBeefaroni wrote:I don't think he or anyone else expected him to stay in the position. The moment he apologized, it was over for him.
I think it was the right thing to do, rather than the "I had no idea this was happening but we will get to the bottom of it" usual crap we get. But it signaled his imminent doom.
I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.Jeff V wrote:Can we take them on long road trips yet?Zaxxon wrote: Just another point on our inevitable move to an all-EV fleet.
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Re: Volkswagen
Went out to play darts for a few hours with some friends last night. A new guy in the group works at a Tesla showroom/dealership/whatever they're called. He was a total evangelist (even had on a Tesla polo) and kept offering everyone rides home in his Model S. I almost took him up on it but figured I just met the guy. Maybe next time.Zaxxon wrote: I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.
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Re: Volkswagen
Nice. Although riding in a Model S can be dangerous to your future wallet.
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Re: Volkswagen
This is a crazy scandal. I can't imagine how it occurred; I mean how many people had to be involved or could have been aware about the gamesmanship? Dozens? Also I can't help but feel that VW down the road is going to break itself up to salvage value in "non-affected" brands - say Porsche for example.
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Re: Volkswagen
A lot of those brands depend on the size of Volkswagen Group though. Like Bentley, Bugatti, and Lamborghini. They can't really go it alone anymore. I don't know about the truck divisions like Scania. Maybe.malchior wrote:This is a crazy scandal. I can't imagine how it occurred; I mean how many people had to be involved or could have been aware about the gamesmanship? Dozens? Also I can't help but feel that VW down the road is going to break itself up to salvage value in "non-affected" brands - say Porsche for example.
After VW bought Bentley, they spent more to modernize the Bentley factory than they did to buy Bentley.
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MYT
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
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Re: Volkswagen
I'm not sure whether Jeff V can, but lots of people have no problem with Teslas, at least.[/quote]Zaxxon wrote: Can we take them on long road trips yet?
So they can take them on 1000 mile + road trips? Is the time to charge them down to the same as filling a tank with gas?
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