The Former Trump Presidency Thread

[Z-Corn]

Calm down and go have a nice diplomatic PM conversation

My guess is LM's sarcastic " " response will be the end of our conversations.

[TheMix]

My guess is that you will be the only person that interpreted that response as sarcastic. That certainly is not how I saw it.

[GreenGoo]

I apologize for dragging your name into it, that made me no better than LM. You're just kinda my hero on not letting shit go.

I feel it's like when you were in school and that annoying kid behind you kept throwing spitwads at you and you laugh at first and then you get serious with him but you are still smiling and then he pulls that shit one more time and you give him the smack he deserves and then everyone is pissed off at you because you just hit the retarded kid.

It takes me a while to get a head of steam but I don't despise conflict at all. I despise retards who throw spitwads and expect no consequences from doing so.

No need to apologize to me. My comment about conflict was only that despite often getting into major conflicts here on OO, I don't actually seek it out or revel in it.

I honestly didn't know if you were serious or not, but now I know. I certainly understand the concept of someone kicking the back of your chair despite multiple attempts to get them to stop, until finally you punch them in the face. That there is often a history behind an outburst many times gets lost on forum readers. Examined in isolation, it can often appear to be an extreme, unreasonable reaction, but examined in context, it's much more understandable. So I get it, is all I'm saying.

I'm not talking about anything specific about me or even this situation for you. Just in generalities.

In any case, your issues with LM (and perhaps his with you) are between the two of you. I'm not judging.

[Remus West]

No worries (or real anger - thus the smiley). IIRC you assisted me in tossing Chaosraven out an airlock playing BSG at Octocon so you have a TON of good will you can burn through.

Indeed - but weren't you a Cylon? It's so hard to keep track which one of you is actually evil.

He was. It was a glorious human victory. The first one I'd ever been part of and I managed to get CR killed (well, outted as Cylons don't actually die) on my first turn.

And it is always him. Always. Just remember when you two were secret masons together and that should help you keep it straight.

[Remus West]

My guess is that you will be the only person that interpreted that response as sarcastic. That certainly is not how I saw it.

+1

[GreenGoo]

My guess is that you will be the only person that interpreted that response as sarcastic. That certainly is not how I saw it.

First, I have no idea what's going on between them. Hence my post about not knowing what's going on.

Second, as someone who often gets accused of over reacting, I sympathize. Sometimes a significant reaction is warranted, but the 3 years of history gets ignored and people wonder why a gets a "fuck you". I don't KNOW that z-corn's reaction is warranted, but neither do I KNOW that it is unwarranted, especially since he has explained that there is a history here.

I value civility, but I don't value civility above all else. Sometimes a person's behavior warrants a metaphorical punch to the face. I'm not the only person who feels that way. I've seen Rmn9 react and justify it in the same way. What's the point of maintaining a thin veneer of civility when both sides understand that no civility is intended and hiding behind the illusion is only relevant to on lookers? Who gives a shit what onlookers think? The conflict is not a conflict that can or even should be solved in the court of public opinion, so fuck those onlookers too.

Obviously LM has a posting history that would lead me to believe that there is a misunderstanding here. Even Mother Teresa made enemies though, and in context that's not necessarily her enemy's fault.

[GreenGoo]

Amen. Also, retards, really?

I cut him some slack because I think it's a generational thing. It's not right, and our generation is working to change, and some have had more luck than others, but in the heat of the moment the previously ingrained words can unfortunately come out.

I think I've made great progress but I absolutely think or very rarely say "retard" in a derogatory sense. In fact if/when I do I immediately regret it and apologize, especially to ILB since we know that he is particularly sensitive/aware of why it is wrong.

Actually think I'm finally in a place that I won't say it and rarely think it, so...progress.

I'm not, Z-corn's not, and I think YK is not the only to have used the word here on the forum without being a monster. Just insensitive and failing to self-monitor. As someone who knows it's wrong to use the word and why, yet still occasionally slip, I'm not going to judge, although admonish softly, maybe.

[Paingod]

Even Mother Teresa made enemies though...

That's because she was a wicked, cruel woman who thought making people suffer was a good thing.

No one's going to drop a house on LM's sister.

Mother Theresa...

A 2013 study from the University of Ottawa dispelled the “myth of altruism and generosity” surrounding Mother Teresa, concluding that her hallowed image did not stand up to the facts, and was basically the result of a forceful media campaign from an ailing Catholic Church.

Although she had 517 missions in 100 countries at the time of her death, the study found that hardly anyone who came seeking medical care found it there. Doctors observed unhygienic, “even unfit,” conditions, inadequate food, and no painkillers — not for lack of funding, in which Mother Theresa’s world-famous order was swimming, but what the study authors call her “particular conception of suffering and death.”

“There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion. The world gains much from their suffering,” Mother Teresa once told the unamused Christopher Hitchens.

She had the money, she just thought it was better that they suffer.

[GreenGoo]

Dude, if that's what you're upset about, you need to step away for a bit.

I'm not going to sit and watch people pile on. Staying calm and keeping things in perspective is always good advice, but maybe LM needs to stop kicking Z-corn's chair. Especially since Z-corn has made it clear (if not before, then now) that kicking his chair is not acceptable.

At what point does the chair kicker have any responsibility?

In the context of this conversation, and ESPECIALLY after Z-corn's outburst, I absolutely take LM's post as at a minimum insincere, at worst, provocation. If LM didn't mean it that way then he has to pay more attention. Communication is a 2-way street. Effort should be made by both sides to understand the other.

[GreenGoo]

No one's going to drop a house on LM's sister.

Z-corn might. It might even be warranted. How would I know? I don't want to drop a house on his sister, it wouldn't be warranted if *I* did it, but clearly there are issues here. A guy can be the best guy in the office and go home and beat his family every night. Does that mean the family is wrong to shoot him in the head? Especially after years of abuse, police reports, begging and other attempts to get it to stop.

I'm not getting into a debate about the virtues/sins of Mother Teresa. You understood the point I was making. Good enough.

[GreenGoo]

I think you will see it's not just my opinion, but perhaps most everyones. GreenGoo's reaction was like mine... He read LM's comment as a friendly jab, then read your reaction and thought "whoa, did I totally just miss something real there? or wait, is Z-Corn joking with an over-the-top reaction?"

(IMO)
LM's problem was that he thought you two had a slightly friendly/familiar/brotherly relationship that wouldn't take the 'I blame Z-Corn' as an attack, when in reality you have obviously been rubbed very wrong by some of the comments he's made about the area you live in.
Your problem is that you see these things as spitwads, and not just (friendly) social nods to past head-bumping.
My problem is that I also hate conflict and I'd like this to be worked out so it doesn't keep happening, but I should probably just shut up.

I support all this, with the caveat that sometimes people just rub each other the wrong way. Some people just will not like each other, despite both (potentially) being incredibly likable themselves.

[GreenGoo]

Like I said, everybody gets mad when you smack the developmentally disabled kid.

If you smack the 'annoying kid' in your story - people can relate. But yeah, when you start to smack a special-needs kid, then I think the 'gets mad' is well earned. No?
I mean, you realize why hitting is wrong, right?

As long as you realize he's not actually hitting anyone. The reason hitting someone is wrong is because physical violence is wrong, not because they don't deserve it. Figuratively hitting someone is not wrong in the same way literally hitting someone is wrong, so why try to apply the same morality?

I'm not criticizing, I just don't think your statement is applicable.

[GreenGoo]

You really shouldn't shout out your insecurities in this forum.

I'm trying not to respond to every response, but this was an insightful one.

This is one of the "safest" places on the internet to talk to strangers or far away friends, yet there is still a danger that communicating your weaknesses will result in those weaknesses being used against you.

When Mr. Fed openly communicates about his depression issues, knowing that his verbal sparring partners and opponents might (and will, and have) use that against him, but does it anyway, it's incredibly brave in my opinion.

Being guarded on the internet is a survival skill. It's unfortunate that there is a need to be at least somewhat guarded here, but that's not because we aren't good people, it's that it's human nature go after a person's soft spots during a conflict, whatever it's nature.

I have caught myself going after Rip's personal life, sister, childhood on a number of occasions and stopped myself. A few times I didn't stop myself but I believe the topic was about those details specifically.

Basically I just wanted to comment on stessier's advice. Whether even that was meant in tongue and cheek or not, it's still good advice. Assuming you don't like when people unfairly attack your weaknesses, I guess.

[Freyland]

1) I live in West Michigan.

2) I tend to go with "fucktard", as it gets across the idea that the person in question is more intentionally acting unintelligently rather than equating them to an unfortunate soul who started out with a disadvantage that was no fault of their own.

3) I am oblivious to any previous conflict occurring between these two and fall firmly in the camp of missing it again.

That's all I have to add. Carry on.

[Remus West]

Can't we all just get along go back to bashing tRump.

[LordMortis]

I feel it's like when you were in school and that annoying kid behind you kept throwing spitwads at you and you laugh at first and then you get serious with him but you are still smiling and then he pulls that shit one more time and you give him the smack he deserves and then everyone is pissed off at you because you just hit the retarded kid.

I had no idea you moved to taking it serious. My apologies. It stops now.

Also to others don't get on him. I have been as he calls it "throwing spitwads" for a long time and if he's been stewing on it for a long time, then I don't blame him for getting snappy. That's on me.

Trying to catch up and wow I am sorry for all this.

No, you are not, but since I know LM is much smarter than I am and I am no where close to special needs mentality I figure that one will roll right off him and let it go.

That's very kind, even it's if only flattery. We all know I'm slow and not very good a seeing a big picture. It is what is and I find my way.

[Z-Corn]

I feel it's like when you were in school and that annoying kid behind you kept throwing spitwads at you and you laugh at first and then you get serious with him but you are still smiling and then he pulls that shit one more time and you give him the smack he deserves and then everyone is pissed off at you because you just hit the retarded kid.

I had no idea you moved to taking it serious. My apologies. It stops now.

Also to others don't get on him. I have been as he calls it "throwing spitwads" for a long time and if he's been stewing on it for a long time, then I don't blame him for getting snappy. That's on me.

Apology absolutely accepted.

I have been stewing on it a long time because I thought that we have had a personal bond in the past (you are the only OO'er I've met IRL for chrissake!) and lately it seems as though that familiarity has lead to contempt towards me on your part.

Again, apology accepted and no hard feelings. It stops now with me as well.


edit to add: I can't forget Kraken! We've met IRL too and we are BFF's!

[GreenGoo]

As far as outbursts go, it was pretty mild. I think I'm in a good position to judge. I make no judgement on the appropriateness of it. I fully admit that I know that some of my personal outbursts are unwarranted, and regret them later. Sometimes I even try to make amends. But not always. And sometimes they're warranted so fuck those guys.

I do hope you guys can resolve whatever the conflict between you. Animosity sucks. And I like both of you, so I want good things for both of you.

edit: Good stuff. Hug it out, brahs! Sorry for spectating.

[Z-Corn]

You really shouldn't shout out your insecurities in this forum.

I'm trying not to respond to every response, but this was an insightful one.

This is one of the "safest" places on the internet to talk to strangers or far away friends, yet there is still a danger that communicating your weaknesses will result in those weaknesses being used against you.

When Mr. Fed openly communicates about his depression issues, knowing that his verbal sparring partners and opponents might (and will, and have) use that against him, but does it anyway, it's incredibly brave in my opinion.

Being guarded on the internet is a survival skill. It's unfortunate that there is a need to be at least somewhat guarded here, but that's not because we aren't good people, it's that it's human nature go after a person's soft spots during a conflict, whatever it's nature.

I have caught myself going after Rip's personal life, sister, childhood on a number of occasions and stopped myself. A few times I didn't stop myself but I believe the topic was about those details specifically.

Basically I just wanted to comment on stessier's advice. Whether even that was meant in tongue and cheek or not, it's still good advice. Assuming you don't like when people unfairly attack your weaknesses, I guess.

GreenGoo, I'm just going to quote this because it is your most recent response...

Thanks for seeing the situation from a neutral perspective and summing it up pretty much as I felt about things.

[GreenGoo]

Thanks for seeing the situation from a neutral perspective and summing it up pretty much as I felt about things.

You're welcome.

I have my own reputation here and I was worried that my support might back fire on you, but I also know what it's like to face things alone, and even if I couldn't support your actions (because I didn't know enough), I could support the possibility that I wasn't seeing the whole picture and keep an open mind.

I have also stepped in for other underdogs (either permanent underdogs, or just underdogs in the moment) as morale support if nothing else.

In any case, I've noticed that I've made every single one of my posts about me in some way, and I'm starting to feel some kinship with drumpf, or his narcissism anyway. I'm going to stop now.

And might I suggest cutting out the "retard" comments, even for effect? It's not cool for legit reasons. I like Frey's fucktard but even that makes me squirm a little, but that's on me I think. If you give people a reason to criticize you and not the subject being discussed, it makes your viewpoint more easily dismissible without anyone ever really having to address the facts involved.

Now if you just want to lay into someone and don't give a shit what any bystander thinks, then that's up to you.

[Isgrimnur]

In any case, I've noticed that I've made every single one of my posts about me in some way, and I'm starting to feel some kinship with drumpf, or his narcissism anyway. I'm going to stop now.

You've been going through some bullshit lately. People talk about what's on their minds, and lately, you've been trying to deal with the things that impact you directly.

[Z-Corn]

And might I suggest cutting out the "retard" comments, even for effect? It's not cool for legit reasons. I like Frey's fucktard but even that makes me squirm a little, but that's on me I think. If you give people a reason to criticize you and not the subject being discussed, it makes your viewpoint more easily dismissible without anyone ever really having to address the facts involved.

I chose the word very carefully knowing what the implications were. It's not a word I use regularly, not since Junior High School. I needed the effect it brought. I'm pretty nauseatingly PC in general. My wife works with these folks and her co-workers' term for them is "Consumers". If I used that nobody would know what I was saying!

I fully understand where you are coming from though.

Now if you just want to lay into someone and don't give a shit what any bystander thinks, then that's up to you.

Pretty much this.

[GreenGoo]

In any case, I've noticed that I've made every single one of my posts about me in some way, and I'm starting to feel some kinship with drumpf, or his narcissism anyway. I'm going to stop now.

You've been going through some bullshit lately. People talk about what's on their minds, and lately, you've been trying to deal with the things that impact you directly.

As I unfortunately (have to?) share with my wife more often than I'd like, just because an excuse is true doesn't make it a valid excuse. In any case, I appreciate your empathy.

[GreenGoo]

I chose the word very carefully knowing what the implications were. It's not a word I use regularly, not since Junior High School. I needed the effect it brought. I'm pretty nauseatingly PC in general. My wife works with these folks and her co-workers' term for them is "Consumers". If I used that nobody would know what I was saying!

I get it and you have to make decisions for yourself.

You probably wouldn't use the N-word for effect, or maybe you would. The R-word is in the same range, although maybe not the same magnitude, in how serious I consider it.

Again, just putting it out there. As you saw, people zero'd in on the word and ignored almost everything else. I feel like I'm helping by point it out. You're a big boy though, your decisions are your own.

[stessier]

No worries (or real anger - thus the smiley). IIRC you assisted me in tossing Chaosraven out an airlock playing BSG at Octocon so you have a TON of good will you can burn through.

Indeed - but weren't you a Cylon? It's so hard to keep track which one of you is actually evil.

He was. It was a glorious human victory. The first one I'd ever been part of and I managed to get CR killed (well, outted as Cylons don't actually die) on my first turn.

And it is always him. Always. Just remember when you two were secret masons together and that should help you keep it straight.

That was such an epic fail by me and yet so very much fun.

[ImLawBoy]

And might I suggest cutting out the "retard" comments, even for effect? It's not cool for legit reasons. I like Frey's fucktard but even that makes me squirm a little, but that's on me I think. If you give people a reason to criticize you and not the subject being discussed, it makes your viewpoint more easily dismissible without anyone ever really having to address the facts involved.

I chose the word very carefully knowing what the implications were. It's not a word I use regularly, not since Junior High School. I needed the effect it brought. I'm pretty nauseatingly PC in general. My wife works with these folks and her co-workers' term for them is "Consumers". If I used that nobody would know what I was saying!

For what it's worth, it's pretty much the equivalent to the N word for many of us from an emotional standpoint. If you think it would not be appropriate to use the N word in an analogous scenario, even for effect, then I would think you would want to avoid the R word, too.

FWIW (which may not be much), "fucktard" bugs the hell out of me too, even though it's part of forum lore (the Battle of Fucktard Ridge). It's too close for my liking to the original word and is really playing on the same negative stereotypes. I generally don't mention it because I don't want to be seen as too overbearing on the subject, but since it's been raised here . . . .

(I also don't like the thought that people with intellectual or other disabilities are "poor souls", as it seems to dehumanize them a bit in my mind, but again, I don't want to be too overbearing on the topic.)

As an aside, I really appreciate the thought on the topic and changes in position that GreenGoo has taken on this topic. He and I have had it out on the topic previously (and I'm not always diplomatic when I raise it, although I'm trying to be better - more flies with honey, and all that), and it's good to know that people are listening and understanding.

Meanwhile, Trump and his presidency still suck.

[GreenGoo]

I don't think it's unreasonable to think of people with disabilities as "poor souls" or "unfortunate souls" although I can see it from your perspective ILB. Luckily it's not something I would normally say, so maybe it has connotations that I'm not aware of beside an expression of sympathy for people with handicaps. We call handicaps "challenges" now, but that doesn't make them not handicaps. "Poor souls" can be used to express sympathy for people with specific challenges without dehumanizing them, in my opinion, but I defer to your preference in any case. As I said, I'm lucky in that it's not an expression I use.

[GreenGoo]

As an aside, I really appreciate the thought on the topic and changes in position that GreenGoo has taken on this topic. He and I have had it out on the topic previously (and I'm not always diplomatic when I raise it, although I'm trying to be better - more flies with honey, and all that), and it's good to know that people are listening and understanding.

Did we? I feel real shame that that happened. I have only the barest inkling that it did, but I don't doubt that it did. My sincere apologies. Heartfelt apologies. While it's true that my own child has challenges of his own, I want to believe that I changed my outlook because it's the right position to hold, long before my son's disability surfaced and could be considered a factor in my change in attitude.

Again, I'm embarrassed and very sorry for my previous behavior. But you're correct, that's very much a thing of the past. Thank you for acknowledging that.

Did you know that I've held you up to my wife in amazement, awe and respect for the time, effort, money and love that you put into your children? Probably not, as this is the first I've said on the subject. I realize that that can be taken as condescending, as of course you do these things, as any loving parent would. Yet not all of us do it so well or so consistently. Your example made it into my life and positively influenced it, and my wife's.

I don't mean to be schmaltzy, but I think people don't get enough feedback for all the positivity and good they bring into the world, and I realized just now that you are probably not aware that I look up to you in this way and that you've been part of a positive conversation I've had with my wife. You should know that.

That's it. I'm not trying to embarrass you, nor am I trying to have a discussion about it. I think it's important that people know that others recognize the good in them, and that it's done in public because having the topic out in the open can have a positive effect on everyone, not just the person. What I am *NOT* doing is trying to make this about getting attention for myself. So please don't give me any.

[Z-Corn]

For what it's worth, it's pretty much the equivalent to the N word for many of us from an emotional standpoint. If you think it would not be appropriate to use the N word in an analogous scenario, even for effect, then I would think you would want to avoid the R word, too.

I fully understand where you are coming from. That's the same reason why I dislike seeing or hearing people use the "M" word for Little People, that still happens occasionally even here. It's more personal to me and I find it an ugly word.

I will be more mindful even when I feel the need to press an issue.

Meanwhile, Trump and his presidency still suck.

You know, I really feel like we've made some headway today in this thread. In the spirit of that I need to say maybe we just need to support Our President and give him a chance. He's still new on the job after all.









OK, just this one time only I am going to admit I am being full of shit with that last one! He's the fucking worst!

[Freyland]

Goo pretty much covered this, but "poor souls", to me, refers to those suffering or experiencing a loss not of their own doing.

"I feel for the poor souls who lost so much from the wildfires."

No dehumanizing at all.

[GreenGoo]

I fully understand where you are coming from. That's the same reason why I dislike seeing or hearing people use the "M" word for Little People, that still happens occasionally even here. It's more personal to me and I find it an ugly word.

I'm still working on this one.

[LordMortis]

I have been stewing on it a long time because I thought that we have had a personal bond in the past (you are the only OO'er I've met IRL for chrissake!) and lately it seems as though that familiarity has lead to contempt towards me on your part.

Again, apology accepted and no hard feelings. It stops now with me as well.

It doesn't matter because it's all on me for being both insensitive and tone deaf... but the posts (probably nonstop. I didn't pay attention, ie the problem) I think are a surrogacy for dealing with relations living in your geography, Hillsdale and points west of there. I'm also betting I'm the offensive around various holidays), where one of two things happens. I am polite in my rebuttal of ignorance or dismissal or crazy of west Michigan family or I am rude, in that I deal with them by getting up and walking away, some of whom I'm this >< close to calling it quits with (I fear firing Mueller will happen and I be this |-> close. The consideration of calling it quits with family is soul crushing. I have always felt like I commiserating. And too often I make poor assumptions leading to poor conclusions. I work on it. Obviously not hard enough.

It's still on me. It's not an excuse. But how I think it's how I ended up down the wrong path. (None of this is to imply your politics and experiences align with mine, even if it was assumed in my pokes at the time)

[ImLawBoy]

As an aside, I really appreciate the thought on the topic and changes in position that GreenGoo has taken on this topic. He and I have had it out on the topic previously (and I'm not always diplomatic when I raise it, although I'm trying to be better - more flies with honey, and all that), and it's good to know that people are listening and understanding.

Did we? I feel real shame that that happened. I have only the barest inkling that it did, but I don't doubt that it did. My sincere apologies. Heartfelt apologies. While it's true that my own child has challenges of his own, I want to believe that I changed my outlook because it's the right position to hold, long before my son's disability surfaced and could be considered a factor in my change in attitude.

I may be overstating things by saying we "had it out", as it was a long time ago. My recollection is that you used the word, I called you out on it (and I may have done so rudely), and you more or less said it was just a word and you knew that it bugged some people but you were likely going to keep using it. Whether I've got the details wrong or not, I do know that you've made a concerted effort about it, and that's what I'm appreciative of.

Did you know that I've held you up to my wife in amazement, awe and respect for the time, effort, money and love that you put into your children? Probably not, as this is the first I've said on the subject. I realize that that can be taken as condescending, as of course you do these things, as any loving parent would. Yet not all of us do it so well or so consistently. Your example made it into my life and positively influenced it, and my wife's.

Yeah, well you only see the carefully curated version that puts me in a good light. You don't see me get frustrated when my oldest's legs are involuntarily kicking in the bath and soaking me. That said, you're right that we as parents do everything we can for our kids. Some days we're better than others. I know you have stuff to deal with regarding your kids, and there are probably even more here who just don't go blabbing about it publicly like we do. Anyway, if you want to really hold someone up, it's my wife. Do not get in between her and what she thinks is right for any of our kids - you'll regret it.

For what it's worth, it's pretty much the equivalent to the N word for many of us from an emotional standpoint. If you think it would not be appropriate to use the N word in an analogous scenario, even for effect, then I would think you would want to avoid the R word, too.

I fully understand where you are coming from. That's the same reason why I dislike seeing or hearing people use the "M" word for Little People, that still happens occasionally even here. It's more personal to me and I find it an ugly word.

I will be more mindful even when I feel the need to press an issue.

Thanks. FWIW, I only recently (in the last year or two) learned that the M word was so offensive. I used it in what I thought was a reasonable way, and my wife about took my head off. I've made an effort to avoid the term since. I'm sure there are people reading this lamenting the PC culture and saying we're all snowflakes, but screw 'em. If I know that a word is offensive I'll generally try not to use it. If that makes me a PC thug, so be it. I'm just trying not to be (too much of) an asshole.

Goo pretty much covered this, but "poor souls", to me, refers to those suffering or experiencing a loss not of their own doing.

"I feel for the poor souls who lost so much from the wildfires."

No dehumanizing at all.

I get what you meant, and I know you weren't trying to dehumanize. It's not something I'd normally even mention except for the context of the discussion it seemed warranted. Parents of kids with visible disabilities see the "pity stare" a lot from people we pass on the street. Most of us don't want pity and really dislike it, even though we know that it's not coming from a malicious place. "Poor souls" is kind of a verbal equivalent of the pity stare. Many people with disabilities are very rich souls (and some are probably assholes - equal opportunity, you know). I know I'm going too far with this, but just know that I don't think you were being cruel. I'm just letting you know the why behind my comment.

[GreenGoo]

I may be overstating things by saying we "had it out", as it was a long time ago. My recollection is that you used the word, I called you out on it (and I may have done so rudely), and you more or less said it was just a word and you knew that it bugged some people but you were likely going to keep using it.

I don't remember details, but I remember that it happened now, and I remember the feelings involved, and I know what I can be like, and I can even feel my mind trying to rationalize my reasoning for pushing back in the first place. Water under the bridge.

Yeah, well you only see the carefully curated version that puts me in a good light.

Of course. Or, no shit, if you prefer. None of us are saints, except perhaps our sainted spouses (Spice!). Believe me when I say that my opinion already takes that into account.

there are probably even more here who just don't go blabbing about it publicly like we do.

Almost certainly. Every once in awhile a lurker will delurk, or a more prolific member will come out of no where with an anecdote. You know all this, of course. I do tend to be guarded about my personal life, and that includes my family and wife, but I always try to be truthful (sometimes details are omitted or not fully fleshed out, giving an incomplete picture, or a single angle. I'm never intentionally dishonest or misleading, that I'm aware of) but after over a decade, you tend to let your guard down, at least somewhat.

I found the pictures and stories of your son visiting the dolphins particularly heartwarming and inspiring. I'm not leaving your son out of my thoughts, only my comments, just so you know I realize he's a person and important, not an accessory to your life. I'm worried that you will find "accessory" is offensive. I use it in the same way that I would use it for anyone who is just along for the ride, but ignored otherwise. That's not specific to your son or the challenges he faces. Does that make sense? My point is despite only talking about you, I'm not ignoring your son as a person. I think that might be important to you, so I'm trying to make it clear. The fact that it's true, helps.

[stessier]

Thanks. FWIW, I only recently (in the last year or two) learned that the M word was so offensive. I used it in what I thought was a reasonable way, and my wife about took my head off. I've made an effort to avoid the term since. I'm sure there are people reading this lamenting the PC culture and saying we're all snowflakes, but screw 'em. If I know that a word is offensive I'll generally try not to use it. If that makes me a PC thug, so be it. I'm just trying not to be (too much of) an asshole.

In the spirit of learning and growing, can someone explain why to me? I've heard before that it is offensive, but never a reason why. Or provide a link - I'm a bit lazy.

[GreenGoo]

My understanding is that the history of the usage of the word is the problem. Negro is a technical term that may or may not be offensive to people. N-word is a derogatory slang that sprung from that and is clearly derogatory.

Midget is both (M-word from here on out, although for me personally I haven't internalized it as such yet), I believe. ILB can cover this better than I can, but the R-word was also a technical term that decayed into derogatory slang. I believe it is similar with the M-word, in that the M-word carries negative connotations that aren't fact based. Calling someone who's shorter than average the M-word is basically the same thing as calling someone who's mental faculties are below average an R-word. Words mean things, but over time they can drift to mean something else. In the M-word's case, I think it's an attempt to decouple fact from insult.

That's how I view it, because I don't know anyone and never looked into it.

I know this is going to put me in a negative light, but I just don't find "Little Person" to be an acceptable or suitable replacement. It lacks dignity (imo of course) and comes across as a description, rather than a label (label in this case is simply what we call things including categories of people that share similar traits. Things in a language sense, rather than a physical one).

Plus I don't like how it sounds.

But, I'm not a member of that group, they have a consensus about how they are addressed and I don't get much say in the matter other than I can choose to honor their preference or disregard it.

Pretty uneducated opinion, I know. If/when someone wants to share a more factual answer I will read along with everyone else.

I just had a flash of someone claiming I'm "mansplaining" this, but I tend to over-explain in the hopes that I avoid being unclear, not because I think the people who will read it have comprehension issues.

[Z-Corn]

Thanks. FWIW, I only recently (in the last year or two) learned that the M word was so offensive. I used it in what I thought was a reasonable way, and my wife about took my head off. I've made an effort to avoid the term since. I'm sure there are people reading this lamenting the PC culture and saying we're all snowflakes, but screw 'em. If I know that a word is offensive I'll generally try not to use it. If that makes me a PC thug, so be it. I'm just trying not to be (too much of) an asshole.

In the spirit of learning and growing, can someone explain why to me? I've heard before that it is offensive, but never a reason why. Or provide a link - I'm a bit lazy.

The long and short of it is...they don't like it. And that is reason enough.

The family I knew thought it was an outdated word that carried baggage from times past.

[Holman]

I think what's liked about "little person" is the explicit assertion of personhood. This matters because "midget"/"dwarf"/etc. always carried connotations of sub-humanity.

Think of a 1960s black marcher carrying a sign saying "I Am a Man." Same principle.

[Alefroth]

My inconsequential two cents-

It's easy to dismiss spitwads as harmless fun when it's not your head they are landing on.

[ImLawBoy]

I found the pictures and stories of your son visiting the dolphins particularly heartwarming and inspiring. I'm not leaving your son out of my thoughts, only my comments, just so you know I realize he's a person and important, not an accessory to your life. I'm worried that you will find "accessory" is offensive. I use it in the same way that I would use it for anyone who is just along for the ride, but ignored otherwise. That's not specific to your son or the challenges he faces. Does that make sense? My point is despite only talking about you, I'm not ignoring your son as a person. I think that might be important to you, so I'm trying to make it clear. The fact that it's true, helps.

I guess I come off as quite sensitive sometimes. (And not unfairly so.) Anyway, I didn't take any offense at what you were saying, so no worries.