Disaster Tourism: The Titanic

[Max Peck]

Today I learned that the president of The Explorer's Club, which has been advocating for a particular UK company with a suitable deep sea capability to be involved in the S&R operation, is none other than Richard Garriott de Cayeux.

[Max Peck]

No, but I was referring to engaging in a fairly risky endeavor. Certifying a vehicle doesn't guarantee safety.

Nothing guarantees safety, but there is a qualitative difference in the risk involved when you're dealing with an entity like OceanGate that, as a matter of policy, avoided reasonable risk mitigation, because it takes time and resources, and actively prioritized "innovation" over the safety of it's employees and customers.

In a lot of ways, Rush seemingly was trying to do things that billionaire adventurers do, but on a millionaire's budget. Shoestringing his way into the record books was unlikely to ever end well.

[Blackhawk]

Putting on a seat belt doesn't guarantee safety, and it's a wasted effort 99.9% of the time.

Most of us still wear a seat belt.

[jztemple2]

Putting on a seat belt doesn't guarantee safety, and it's a wasted effort 99.9% of the time.

Most of us still wear a seat belt.

I think folks are misinterpreting my statement. There is no hard and fast line between being absolutely safe and not. But driving to the grocery store and going off in a rocket or down in a minisub are two different levels of risk. Wearing a seatbelt mitigates the risk in the car.

[Blackhawk]

Absolutely, but getting a device that you rely on for your safety (whether that be a car, a sub, or a rocket) certified by an independent body of experts mitigates risks, too. It won't guarantee safety, but it will force addressing dangerous design or construction flaws.

Like not taking extra batteries for your game controller.

[jztemple2]

Like not taking extra batteries for your game controller.

Oh my, wouldn't that be the ultimate in irony? A couple of missing batteries costing a sub and the five lives, including some billionaires.

[Rumpy]

I do agree that the info we are seeing now about the tourist sub company does raise a lot of red flags. What's odd is that these billionaires don't seem to have seen these red flags before they signed up. You'd think a billionaire could spend the money to do a lot more research about a company than ordinary folks.

Yeah, that's the big one for me. If the company knew well in advance of any potential failure, and it looks like they might have, but didn't notify those that would go down and having them sign a waiver, that looks incredibly bad on the company and doesn't help with their safety record. Sounds very much like criminal negligence.

And I have a hard time believing anyone would want to take a trip down in that particular sub after this has happened, or even hire out the company in general.

[Max Peck]

I understand, but I believe there is a different level of risk in boarding a Virgin Galactic flight compared to an OceanGate dive. Both entail significantly more risk than driving to the supermarket, but so far as I know Virgin Galactic is doing everything it can to ensure that it's passengers survive the trip. OceanGate chose a different path. A Virgin Galactic flight might end in disaster, but the more we learn about OceanGate, the more likely it seems that sooner or later one of their dives was certain to end in disaster.

So all I'm really saying is that an OceanGate dive is better compared to a Mike Hughes launch than a Virgin Galactic launch.

[Blackhawk]

I can't imagine that anybody will trust this company (or it's owner, provided he survives) for much of anything anymore.

They're sunk.

[Unagi]

Well, they are certainly under a lot of pressure right now.

[coopasonic]

Well, they are certainly under a lot of pressure right now.

or

not sure...

[Rumpy]

Yeah, I just can't fathom it.

[Unagi]

* is a measure of distance, not depth.

[jztemple2]

* is a measure of distance, not depth.

? Is this in regards to fathom? Fathom is a measure of distance (six feet) but is usually used to indicate depth. Or is the asterisk for something else?

Meanwhile, more detailed info from The Drive, Rescue Force Grows As Time Runs Short For Titan Submersible Crew

[Rumpy]

It's definitely a nautical term used to measure depth. Not aware of any other meanings.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fathom

[Max Peck]

More from David Pogue...



One particularly interesting factoid is that he mentions a failsafe system that should have surfaced the vessel after a period of time, even if the crew was incapacitated.

[Blackhawk]

Which lends support to the idea of an implosion, as I'm sure that the wreck has been scoured by now - had they gotten physically stuck, they'd have been found.

[Unagi]

* is a measure of distance, not depth.

? Is this in regards to fathom? Fathom is a measure of distance (six feet) but is usually used to indicate depth. Or is the asterisk for something else?

It's definitely a nautical term used to measure depth. Not aware of any other meanings.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fathom

This was a total brain fart of mine. And yes, of course, fathom is used exactly and entirely the way Rumpy used it.
I shamefully admit that for some reason I replaced the word with 'league', and then felt I needed to dispel the "2,000 leagues under the sea" misconception that some people have.


It's an embarrassing look into my brain's increasingly casual 'shoot-from-the-hip' read/reply MO, that I need to address.

Carry on.

[LawBeefaroni]

Well reports are that they heard banging. So it seems they may have lost power and can't surface. As it's unlikely they get to them in time. So I'm not sure that's going to end up being good news. Having them sit in pitch black for days ugh.

If they lost all power, I imagine they'd be at risk of hypothermia too. Highly doubt they'd have chemical heaters or proper gear.

[jztemple2]

Which lends support to the idea of an implosion, as I'm sure that the wreck has been scoured by now - had they gotten physically stuck, they'd have been found.

That David Pogue interview was the first I'd heard that they have sandbags that will automatically drop off after a certain time. However, the sub could have drifted with the currents away from the Titanic location and I didn't hear how much of the sub would be visible above the water. So there's still hope, although it would still be horrible for them to be actually at the surface but with no way to open the hatch

[LawBeefaroni]

What's odd is that these billionaires don't seem to have seen these red flags before they signed up. You'd think a billionaire could spend the money to do a lot more research about a company than ordinary folks.

The company was probably spending all their time convincing billionaires that it was safe. Rather than actually making it safe.

[Blackhawk]

Which lends support to the idea of an implosion, as I'm sure that the wreck has been scoured by now - had they gotten physically stuck, they'd have been found.

That David Pogue interview was the first I'd heard that they have sandbags that will automatically drop off after a certain time. However, the sub could have drifted with the currents away from the Titanic location and I didn't hear how much of the sub would be visible above the water. So there's still hope, although it would still be horrible for them to be actually at the surface but with no way to open the hatch

At which point an automated beacon with a self-contained power source would save their lives. Or would, if they hadn't decided that such things stifle innovation.

[Blackhawk]

What those people are going through has got to be awful, so despite a few iffy puns, I'm being careful about what I say. Now I'm going to turn that sensitivity off for a minute.

I've spent years watching billionaires spend human lives in their efforts to boost their egos and/or their bank accounts. There is some part of me that finds an (inappropriate?) comfort in the fact that, should this end badly, the asshole responsible is going to be one of the people that pays the price. And I can only imagine that the entire group will spend their last hours making him very, very aware of what he's responsible for.

[Max Peck]

Which lends support to the idea of an implosion, as I'm sure that the wreck has been scoured by now - had they gotten physically stuck, they'd have been found.

That David Pogue interview was the first I'd heard that they have sandbags that will automatically drop off after a certain time. However, the sub could have drifted with the currents away from the Titanic location and I didn't hear how much of the sub would be visible above the water. So there's still hope, although it would still be horrible for them to be actually at the surface but with no way to open the hatch

Last night's Rolling Stone article, which broke the news about the banging sounds (courtesy of an apparently leaked DHS internal email), includes a snippet of information that seems a lot more interesting in light of the failsafe ballast release mechanism.

On Tuesday evening, an e-mail update sent to DHS leadership and obtained by Rolling Stone stated that additional “acoustic feedback was heard and will assist in vectoring surface assets and also indicating continued hope of survivors.”

The e-mail added that a “white rectangular object” was located in the water, and that a research vessel “originally diverted to investigate” was “diverted to research the acoustic feedback instead.”

A commercial remotely operated vehicle (ROV) will continue its search into the evening, by rotating operators, the email read, noting that “rigging/recovery wire for possible recovery is standing by.”

I haven't seen any further reporting regarding the "white rectangular object" so I don't know if they confirmed that it wasn't the Titan. I can't imagine that they didn't follow up on it at all.

[LawBeefaroni]

Has Elon offered a wholly inadequate sub and called rhe Coast Guard a bunch of pedos yet? If not, he may need a welfare check.

[malchior]

Has Elon offered a wholly inadequate sub and called rhe Coast Guard a bunch of pedos yet? If not, he may need a welfare check.

Texas just wrote him a hig one today so maybe tomorrow we will get his big brain on this.

[Daehawk]

Seems either the vehicle suffered a failure of the seals in which case it imploded or it lost ability to nav which means it probably sank to the bottom...and likely crushed.

After this long I dont know if they have the air even if everything else is good.

I know I would never ever ever go down there.

[Unagi]

Seems either the vehicle suffered a failure of the seals in which case it imploded or it lost ability to nav which means it probably sank to the bottom...and likely crushed.

What's remarkably stupid is that it's also possible that their only failure was to their communications, and they are lost at sea - afloat - sealed in a suffocation chamber bobbing in the ocean with no way to signal where they are.

[Unagi]

Has Elon offered a wholly inadequate sub and called rhe Coast Guard a bunch of pedos yet? If not, he may need a welfare check.

Lordy, if only Elon was super into the Titanic.

[Punisher]

If anyone's interested they are apparently planning ahead..

https://oceangate.com/about/career-oppo ... pilot.html

[Unagi]

What those people are going through has got to be awful, so despite a few iffy puns, I'm being careful about what I say. Now I'm going to turn that sensitivity off for a minute.

I've spent years watching billionaires spend human lives in their efforts to boost their egos and/or their bank accounts. There is some part of me that finds an (inappropriate?) comfort in the fact that, should this end badly, the asshole responsible is going to be one of the people that pays the price. And I can only imagine that the entire group will spend their last hours making him very, very aware of what he's responsible for.

I will also take a moment here to sincerely acknowledge the truly tragic loss of human life, and hope that there was very little suffering (I imagine there was indeed very little suffering, tbh).

TBS... (has "that being said" been turned into an initialism yet?)

And while I know I'm likely unwelcome company to you on this... personally, I agree- and I will go so far as to say that I am entirely at ease with this "story" as I know that each of them sincerely signed up for this and entirely knew the risks (my conscience clean), and then really mostly what you said above... (certainly about Rush, the owner)

Billionaires dying just isn't something I'm terribly ruined by... there is absolutely no way to make the money they made without the exploitation of something and while I fall shy of wishing death on them or feeling they deserve death....... if they want to go off and spend their outrageous wealth on 'winning world record exotic experiences' - the wealth earned most certainly at the expense of likely thousands of people - and probably directly the premature cause of death** for more than a handful of other people... (** If one had the omniscient knowledge of these things) - - I don't feel horrible digesting the loss of this specific submersible as easily as I am. The Onion article (IMO) speaks exactly to this sentiment.

[Blackhawk]

I don't necessarily agree with you beyond what I posted above, even if I were, I'm not sure I'd lump the 19-year-old going on the trip with his dad into that category.

[Punisher]

as I know that each of them sincerely signed up for this and entirely knew the risks

This is the only thing I'm not sure of. Whenever you do anything not 100% of your design and in your control you are relying on the person in charge.
We accept rhat the coaster rides we go on have some danger but accept that the owner did their due diligence to prevent accidents even though in some cases it hasn't been true.
When we fly in an airplane we assume the airline did their due diligence in maintaining it.
We now know in hindsight that the owner of the sub didn't due their due diligence but I wonder if the other passengers entirely knew the risks or did they assume that the owner did his due diligence?
I'm ok if the owner dies as he definitely knew the risks, I'm just not sure on the others.

[Unagi]

I don't necessarily agree with you beyond what I posted above

Honestly, never expected you to agree beyond your post above, and I did not intend to imply that I was developing your point a step further.

, even if I were, I'm not sure I'd lump the 19-year-old going on the trip with his dad into that category.

I will agree with regards to the 19-year-old... but I'm still unturned. I don't think this is something even the 19-year-old would be insulted by: this was the result of their hubris.

I'm sure they all knew that this endeavor/company was a "first of its kind " package and that if they were willing to wait 10 years they could likely still pay out the nose but do this with a much higher degree of safety.
This was about "First!" and about privilege, and I will spare myself the grief about feeling bad for them. I will also spare myself the stain of celebrating it. I don't.


Yet I am a bit more ugly than you, I suppose. I don't have an enormous amount of sympathy even for the 19-year-old (isn't that the age of the average Vietnam Vet) that found himself so enormously fortunate to join in his father's overreach .

Cynically (admittedly), I doubt that young billionaire would have made us proud either.

[Isgrimnur]

I don't necessarily agree with you beyond what I posted above, even if I were, I'm not sure I'd lump the 19-year-old going on the trip with his dad into that category.

He’s about the only one I feel bad for. And a bit for the retired French navy diver.

[Unagi]

as I know that each of them sincerely signed up for this and entirely knew the risks

This is the only thing I'm not sure of. Whenever you do anything not 100% of your design and in your control you are relying on the person in charge.

Certainly.
But with something of this nature, I would bet they were 100% happy to sign something that said "I realize that what I'm doing is untested and could likely result in my death and I entirely absolve this company of any legal responsibility".

No thrill-seeking billionaire signing up to do a 2-mile-deep dive on the Titanic would ever blink an eye to that "disclaimer".


And yeah, of course, they were relying on the person in charge... but they all (of sound body and mind) signed something ahead of time that basically said "Hey, this is an absolutely crazy risk, and if this all goes entirely South - it's basically because we made them take us".

How many people and how much money should be spent on saving them. Honestly. My mind just goes to all the uncounted young women that go missing every year and are just tossed aside as likely prostitutes. I am not evil, but I must apologize if these specific "lost souls" go unattended in my mind.

[Holman]

As much as I firmly believe that every billionaire (or even multi-millionaire) is a failure of society to allocate resources justly, I hate seeing people laugh at suffering. Dying of suffocation at the bottom of the ocean is a horror, and no horror should ever be celebrated.

[Isgrimnur]

To mangle a line from Office Space:

It’s not that I’m celebrating, Bob, it’s that I just don’t care.

[jztemple2]

As much as I firmly believe that every billionaire (or even multi-millionaire) is a failure of society to allocate resources justly...

Really, every one?

[Holman]

As much as I firmly believe that every billionaire (or even multi-millionaire) is a failure of society to allocate resources justly...

Really, every one?

Yep.