Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

[ImLawBoy]

Not a direct impact, no, but if Israelis start feeling more and more isolated from the rest of the world, it could lead to internal pressure for the government to change course.

[GreenGoo]

Trump promises to deport foreign students who participate in anti-Israeli protests.

“When I’m president, we will not allow our colleges to be taken over by violent radicals,” he said. “If you come here from another country and try to bring jihadism or anti-Americanism or antisemitism to campuses, we will immediately deport you. You’ll be out of that school.”

Ask our universities how they enjoyed losing out on foreign student tuition. I bet you can figure it out on your own.

[Zarathud]

Trump would accept the cost of failing US education. They’re not his base, and targeting them only feeds the desire to hurt others.

[GreenGoo]

Trump would accept the cost of failing US education. They’re not his base, and targeting them only feeds the desire to hurt others.

Sure. I wonder if colleges have any political leverage...

[El Guapo]

Not a direct impact, no, but if Israelis start feeling more and more isolated from the rest of the world, it could lead to internal pressure for the government to change course.

The problem is that targeting all Israelis and all Israeli institutions means that you're hitting everyone, even if they already agree with you or are favorably inclined to what you want. Shutting out people because of who they are or where they are from, regardless of what actions they are taking, and giving them no option to engage with you regardless of what they do in the future seems...problematic. Like Tel Aviv University could be the Berkeley or UT Austin of Israel and they'd be shut out just as much (if the Columbia protestors demands were met) as a university on a settlement in the heart of the West Bank.

On top of that the fact that it involves singling out everyone of a specific national origin, of the only Jewish state in the world...doesn't make it antisemitic per se, but it's a pretty thin line between that and antisemitism.

I'm also thinking of the events last week during the Eurovision song competition, which took place in Sweden. There were mass protests (including Greta Thunberg!) of the Israeli participant in the contest, who is a 20 year old Israeli woman. The Israeli singer had to basically stay in her hotel room the entire time with a security detail (which also took her to the competition). The Irish singer had a room next to her and basically successfully forced the Israeli singer to change rooms. At press conferences the Israeli singer was asked questions like "Is your participation in this contest endangering others?". The Greek singer pretended to fall asleep while the Israeli singer was answering questions. Despite a tradition wherein the previous year's winner hands the trophy to the current winner, the prior winner planned, if the Israeli singer won, to leave the trophy on the stage and walk off. The Finnish singer had to apologize for being filmed dancing briefly with the Israeli singer.

Like I said, divestment demands of Israel are not inherently antisemitic. BUT if they're based solely on Israeli national origin and nothing else...it's a thin line and you're going to get some pretty gross conduct, even from people who mean well.

[GreenGoo]

Well, I'd say two things:

1. Not every protestor has a well thought out game plan with defined goals and actions that will meet those goals. This is normal and expected and not a sign that the protestors need to be denigrated in the media.

2. Negotiations with the protestors would allow for not all of their "demands" being met, but still accomplishing some of their goals. Enough for them to go home. For instance, a college might point out this "problematic" hitting everyone that El Guapo noted, and suggest that they leave those people alone, as part of the agreement between protestors and colleges.

Separately, I'm not sure what leverage college protestors have on the federal government, aside from politicians who rely on popularity for their livelihood. However, as far as colleges go, negotiations are expected with compromises on both sides. It's ok if this doesn't go perfectly. Humans are imperfect. It's not a binary: everything is perfect/everything is awful. There's room in the middle. Someone should tell the media.

[LawBeefaroni]

I'm also thinking of the events last week during the Eurovision song competition, which took place in Sweden. ...
The Israeli singer...

Wait, Israel is in the Eurovision Song Competition?

*Googles*

Wait, wait, wait. They were the second favorite to win?



I think I need to sit down for a minute.

[ImLawBoy]

Not a direct impact, no, but if Israelis start feeling more and more isolated from the rest of the world, it could lead to internal pressure for the government to change course.

The problem is that targeting all Israelis and all Israeli institutions means that you're hitting everyone, even if they already agree with you or are favorably inclined to what you want. Shutting out people because of who they are or where they are from, regardless of what actions they are taking, and giving them no option to engage with you regardless of what they do in the future seems...problematic. Like Tel Aviv University could be the Berkeley or UT Austin of Israel and they'd be shut out just as much (if the Columbia protestors demands were met) as a university on a settlement in the heart of the West Bank.

On top of that the fact that it involves singling out everyone of a specific national origin, of the only Jewish state in the world...doesn't make it antisemitic per se, but it's a pretty thin line between that and antisemitism.

I'm also thinking of the events last week during the Eurovision song competition, which took place in Sweden. There were mass protests (including Greta Thunberg!) of the Israeli participant in the contest, who is a 20 year old Israeli woman. The Israeli singer had to basically stay in her hotel room the entire time with a security detail (which also took her to the competition). The Irish singer had a room next to her and basically successfully forced the Israeli singer to change rooms. At press conferences the Israeli singer was asked questions like "Is your participation in this contest endangering others?". The Greek singer pretended to fall asleep while the Israeli singer was answering questions. Despite a tradition wherein the previous year's winner hands the trophy to the current winner, the prior winner planned, if the Israeli singer won, to leave the trophy on the stage and walk off. The Finnish singer had to apologize for being filmed dancing briefly with the Israeli singer.

Like I said, divestment demands of Israel are not inherently antisemitic. BUT if they're based solely on Israeli national origin and nothing else...it's a thin line and you're going to get some pretty gross conduct, even from people who mean well.

There are a couple of issues to unpack here. First is whether or not divestment or other sanctions on Israeli nationals is a reasonable goal of protestors. Second is whether it is antisemitic.

On the first piece, I think it's a fairly common tactic. Some argue it was one of the key elements to breaking apartheid in South Africa. It's currently being used against Russian nationals regarding Ukraine. Will it be effective here? Outlook is unclear. Is it a reasonable goal for protestors? Opinions may vary, but it's not out of the question.

On the second piece, I don't think it's fair to impute antisemitism into these goals. They're not directly related to the Jewish religion - they're related to the nation of Israel as a political actor, not as a religious actor. Yes, the nation of Israel is also a Jewish state, but that doesn't insulate them from criticism.

[El Guapo]

I'm also thinking of the events last week during the Eurovision song competition, which took place in Sweden. ...
The Israeli singer...

Wait, Israel is in the Eurovision Song Competition?

*Googles*

Wait, wait, wait. They were the second favorite to win?



I think I need to sit down for a minute.

Wait until I blow your mind - *Australia* is in the Eurovision song competition.

[El Guapo]

Not a direct impact, no, but if Israelis start feeling more and more isolated from the rest of the world, it could lead to internal pressure for the government to change course.

The problem is that targeting all Israelis and all Israeli institutions means that you're hitting everyone, even if they already agree with you or are favorably inclined to what you want. Shutting out people because of who they are or where they are from, regardless of what actions they are taking, and giving them no option to engage with you regardless of what they do in the future seems...problematic. Like Tel Aviv University could be the Berkeley or UT Austin of Israel and they'd be shut out just as much (if the Columbia protestors demands were met) as a university on a settlement in the heart of the West Bank.

On top of that the fact that it involves singling out everyone of a specific national origin, of the only Jewish state in the world...doesn't make it antisemitic per se, but it's a pretty thin line between that and antisemitism.

I'm also thinking of the events last week during the Eurovision song competition, which took place in Sweden. There were mass protests (including Greta Thunberg!) of the Israeli participant in the contest, who is a 20 year old Israeli woman. The Israeli singer had to basically stay in her hotel room the entire time with a security detail (which also took her to the competition). The Irish singer had a room next to her and basically successfully forced the Israeli singer to change rooms. At press conferences the Israeli singer was asked questions like "Is your participation in this contest endangering others?". The Greek singer pretended to fall asleep while the Israeli singer was answering questions. Despite a tradition wherein the previous year's winner hands the trophy to the current winner, the prior winner planned, if the Israeli singer won, to leave the trophy on the stage and walk off. The Finnish singer had to apologize for being filmed dancing briefly with the Israeli singer.

Like I said, divestment demands of Israel are not inherently antisemitic. BUT if they're based solely on Israeli national origin and nothing else...it's a thin line and you're going to get some pretty gross conduct, even from people who mean well.

There are a couple of issues to unpack here. First is whether or not divestment or other sanctions on Israeli nationals is a reasonable goal of protestors. Second is whether it is antisemitic.

On the first piece, I think it's a fairly common tactic. Some argue it was one of the key elements to breaking apartheid in South Africa. It's currently being used against Russian nationals regarding Ukraine. Will it be effective here? Outlook is unclear. Is it a reasonable goal for protestors? Opinions may vary, but it's not out of the question.

On the second piece, I don't think it's fair to impute antisemitism into these goals. They're not directly related to the Jewish religion - they're related to the nation of Israel as a political actor, not as a religious actor. Yes, the nation of Israel is also a Jewish state, but that doesn't insulate them from criticism.

First, I never said anything about Israel being Jewish insulating them from criticism. I'm talking specifically about divestiture demands here, and even more specifically about ones not tied to anything other than Israeli national origin (e.g., not ones tied to X institution having a relationship with the IDF, for example, or a relationship specific to the occupied territories).

Second, as I said I don't think these broad divestiture demands are antisemitic per se. But I think if your movement is encouraging cutting all ties with Israeli institutions solely because they're Israeli, you're going to wind up with a fair amount of abusive and antisemitic conduct. Like...the eurovision stuff.

[ImLawBoy]

I don't see it as that different from Russian nationals receiving similar treatment based solely on them being Russian. You can certainly argue that this is unfair to Russians who don't support the war in Ukraine just as it is to Israelis who don't support the Gaza effort. It's a similar approach to both circumstances, though, and I don't see how that turns one into antisemitism. (And I know you're not saying it's antisemitism per se, but I'm typing quick here so bear with me.)

[waitingtoconnect]

Trump would accept the cost of failing US education. They’re not his base, and targeting them only feeds the desire to hurt others.

Sure. I wonder if colleges have any political leverage...

In my experience college administrations and the big alumni donors tend to be very corporate. So conservative Republican or conservative Democrat. The staff tend to be a mix depending on department. Either isn’t a base Trump cares for anymore. Seems to be the Bible and flat earth now.

[El Guapo]

I don't see it as that different from Russian nationals receiving similar treatment based solely on them being Russian. You can certainly argue that this is unfair to Russians who don't support the war in Ukraine just as it is to Israelis who don't support the Gaza effort. It's a similar approach to both circumstances, though, and I don't see how that turns one into antisemitism. (And I know you're not saying it's antisemitism per se, but I'm typing quick here so bear with me.)

I think Russian nationals have also been treated unfairly as well, especially closer to the start of the Ukraine war.

And as to how it turns into anti-semitism...I'm harping on the eurovision stuff because it's the most blatant and unjustifiable example that I've seen. The Israeli singer (Eden Golan) is a 20-year old participating in a singing contest, and she had to have a security detail and deal with constant harassment not because of anything she said or did (no one has said anything about her political beliefs or statements or anything else), but solely because she's Israeli.

And because Israelis are overwhelmingly Jewish...I don't think it's much of a leap to see anti-semitism there. YMMV.

[Pyperkub]

Well, I'd say two things:

1. Not every protestor has a well thought out game plan with defined goals and actions that will meet those goals. This is normal and expected and not a sign that the protestors need to be denigrated in the media.

2. Negotiations with the protestors would allow for not all of their "demands" being met, but still accomplishing some of their goals. Enough for them to go home. For instance, a college might point out this "problematic" hitting everyone that El Guapo noted, and suggest that they leave those people alone, as part of the agreement between protestors and colleges.

Separately, I'm not sure what leverage college protestors have on the federal government, aside from politicians who rely on popularity for their livelihood. However, as far as colleges go, negotiations are expected with compromises on both sides. It's ok if this doesn't go perfectly. Humans are imperfect. It's not a binary: everything is perfect/everything is awful. There's room in the middle. Someone should tell the media.

Yeah. I'm 100% behind the protestors right to peacefully protest.

I'm not sold on divestment as a good solution, but I could be persuaded given bibi's Israel, the NSO Group, etc. and the Horrors of Israel's action being documented (somehow there are very little stories about Hamas, who have been as bad, or even worse than Israel, even still holding hostages - I haven't seen anything about them lately - no Journalistic access? Or just no Journalistic desire? We do expect more from Israel than we ever have of Hamas, so they do have a better standard to hold to, and they most definitely aren't).

I'm more sold on some protestor motivations being supportive of Hamas (and others) to destroy Israel, rather than reform Israel through pressure.

I'm also sold on the fascist RW authoritarians who are using this in their assault on higher education, and, in general, anyone's opinion they don't like deserves to be assaulted/murdered.

And finally, these groups of protestors on campus are VERY SMALL GROUPS. They aren't necessarily reflective of the entire student population. (e.g. UCLA has almost 50k students - I think the # of protestors was 500 or so). These are not anywhere near the size of the Free Speech/anti-War movement at Berkeley and others in the 60's.

[Holman]

I'm more sold on some protestor motivations being supportive of Hamas (and others) to destroy Israel, rather than reform Israel through pressure.

I have to disagree. Having spent my whole life among education folks, I know a lot of people on a lot of campuses. My social media is full of people pointing out that the protests feature Jewish-Muslim cooperation among students. (Somehow this aspect of the protests never seems to make the news.)

I know that some fringe protesters are taking advantage of the crisis for anti-semitic messaging, but they aren't the core of the movement. The core of movement is people galvanized to oppose war crimes being perpetrated by our ally.

Young American Jewish college students tend to be progressive, and they hate what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza in their name.

I'm also sold on the fascist RW authoritarians who are using this in their assault on higher education, and, in general, anyone's opinion they don't like deserves to be assaulted/murdered.

Yep. This.

[Victoria Raverna]

I'm also thinking of the events last week during the Eurovision song competition, which took place in Sweden. ...
The Israeli singer...

Wait, Israel is in the Eurovision Song Competition?

*Googles*

Wait, wait, wait. They were the second favorite to win?



I think I need to sit down for a minute.

MOROCCANOIL is presenting partner of Eurovision 2024.

https://eurovision.tv/moroccanoil#:~:te ... rd%20shows.

MORROCANOIL is an Israeli company.

I guess that explain why Israel which is not in Europe can be in Eurovision.

[Victoria Raverna]

I'm also thinking of the events last week during the Eurovision song competition, which took place in Sweden. ...
The Israeli singer...

Wait, Israel is in the Eurovision Song Competition?

*Googles*

Wait, wait, wait. They were the second favorite to win?



I think I need to sit down for a minute.

Wait until I blow your mind - *Australia* is in the Eurovision song competition.

Apparently they were supposed to be invited for one time special appearance in Eurovision's 50th birthday (2015) but because they did well since then they can qualified for the spot by competing in semi-finals.

[El Guapo]

I'm also thinking of the events last week during the Eurovision song competition, which took place in Sweden. ...
The Israeli singer...

Wait, Israel is in the Eurovision Song Competition?

*Googles*

Wait, wait, wait. They were the second favorite to win?



I think I need to sit down for a minute.

MOROCCANOIL is presenting partner of Eurovision 2024.

https://eurovision.tv/moroccanoil#:~:te ... rd%20shows.

MORROCANOIL is an Israeli company.

I guess that explain why Israel which is not in Europe can be in Eurovision.

That does not, in fact, explain it. From Eurovision's website:

Israel made its debut in the Eurovision Song Contest in 1973 as the first non-European country granted permission to participate in the event. The EBU allowed Israel to participate since the country's broadcaster was already one of its members.

Moroccanoil's sponsorship only goes back to 2021.

[Victoria Raverna]

I was wrong then.

[Unagi]

I thought I was wrong once.
I was mistaken.

[ImLawBoy]

I don't see it as that different from Russian nationals receiving similar treatment based solely on them being Russian. You can certainly argue that this is unfair to Russians who don't support the war in Ukraine just as it is to Israelis who don't support the Gaza effort. It's a similar approach to both circumstances, though, and I don't see how that turns one into antisemitism. (And I know you're not saying it's antisemitism per se, but I'm typing quick here so bear with me.)

I think Russian nationals have also been treated unfairly as well, especially closer to the start of the Ukraine war.

And as to how it turns into anti-semitism...I'm harping on the eurovision stuff because it's the most blatant and unjustifiable example that I've seen. The Israeli singer (Eden Golan) is a 20-year old participating in a singing contest, and she had to have a security detail and deal with constant harassment not because of anything she said or did (no one has said anything about her political beliefs or statements or anything else), but solely because she's Israeli.

And because Israelis are overwhelmingly Jewish...I don't think it's much of a leap to see anti-semitism there. YMMV.

Russia has been completely excluded from Eurovision since 2022 when Ukraine started. Institutionally speaking, it seems as though the world has been harsher on Russia than on Israel. Israel was still permitted to participate. Hard to know whether an individual Russian performer would have received the same treatment as the Israeli performer, but it's not hard to imagine a similar backlash were Russians permitted to participate.

I'm not saying that there's no antisemitism and we don't need to be wary of it. I'm pointing out that we've had a roughly similar situation with Russia/Ukraine where the treatments of Russians has roughly paralleled the treatment of Israelis here. That leads me to believe that antisemitism is less of an issue here than general unpopularity of the Israeli government's actions in Gaza.

[gbasden]

That leads me to believe that antisemitism is less of an issue here than general unpopularity of the Israeli government's actions in Gaza.

Agreed.

[El Guapo]

I don't see it as that different from Russian nationals receiving similar treatment based solely on them being Russian. You can certainly argue that this is unfair to Russians who don't support the war in Ukraine just as it is to Israelis who don't support the Gaza effort. It's a similar approach to both circumstances, though, and I don't see how that turns one into antisemitism. (And I know you're not saying it's antisemitism per se, but I'm typing quick here so bear with me.)

I think Russian nationals have also been treated unfairly as well, especially closer to the start of the Ukraine war.

And as to how it turns into anti-semitism...I'm harping on the eurovision stuff because it's the most blatant and unjustifiable example that I've seen. The Israeli singer (Eden Golan) is a 20-year old participating in a singing contest, and she had to have a security detail and deal with constant harassment not because of anything she said or did (no one has said anything about her political beliefs or statements or anything else), but solely because she's Israeli.

And because Israelis are overwhelmingly Jewish...I don't think it's much of a leap to see anti-semitism there. YMMV.

Russia has been completely excluded from Eurovision since 2022 when Ukraine started. Institutionally speaking, it seems as though the world has been harsher on Russia than on Israel. Israel was still permitted to participate. Hard to know whether an individual Russian performer would have received the same treatment as the Israeli performer, but it's not hard to imagine a similar backlash were Russians permitted to participate.

I'm not saying that there's no antisemitism and we don't need to be wary of it. I'm pointing out that we've had a roughly similar situation with Russia/Ukraine where the treatments of Russians has roughly paralleled the treatment of Israelis here. That leads me to believe that antisemitism is less of an issue here than general unpopularity of the Israeli government's actions in Gaza.

I'm talking about how Eden Golan (the Israeli singer) was treated at Eurovision by other singers and various activists. I don't see how that "the world has been harsher on Russia than on Israel" is relevant to that - I'm not talking about adding up a big ledger of proper and improper conduct in the world at large. When individual Russians are harassed because they're Russian that is also problematic for similar reasons, even if the people harassing them are angry about what the Russian government is doing.

And I know that the people harassing Golan were doing so because they're angry about the war in Gaza. But it is a rare bigot that says "I hate this person because they are [minority group at issue]". All Lives Matter activists generally don't think of themselves as racists, they think of themselves as fighting against "special treatment." Anger over the war in Gaza, while (again) 100% understandable and justifiable, can also be (as it was here) a channel to give respectability to what would otherwise be naked bigotry. When people harassed Japanese-Americans during World War II, the people doing so saw themselves as responding to what the Japanese government was doing. But that didn't make their actions any less bigoted.

More than anything else, what really got me was the Finnish singer apologizing for the five second tiktok of him dancing with and then hugging Eden Golan. That he felt the need to put out essentially "I'm sorry I had this friendly and human moment with an Israeli woman at a singing competition" really speaks to the environment there. Honestly if that's not anti-semitism at least in effect, I don't know what would be short of "Jews will not replace us" type language.

[Victoria Raverna]

I think there were two main reasons why they're hostile toward the Israeli singer:

1. They wanted Eurovision to ban Israel from Eurovision just like Russia.

2. Eurovision banned Palestinian flag or any symbol that showed support for Palestinian civilians. Two of contestants were rebuked for that. Eric Saade from Sweden was rebuked for wearing a black and white scarf on his arm. Bambie Thug was asked to change their stage makeup that showed Pro Palestinian references.

While Eurovision claimed that the ban was because Eurovision is an apolitical event, a lot people viewed that Eurovision organizer was pro-Israel. With Israeli contestant allowed to join as a contestant, it was okay to bring Israel flag to show support to Israel but not bring Palestinian flags or symbol.

[hepcat]

They also banned the EU flag.

[ImLawBoy]

I'm talking about how Eden Golan (the Israeli singer) was treated at Eurovision by other singers and various activists. I don't see how that "the world has been harsher on Russia than on Israel" is relevant to that - I'm not talking about adding up a big ledger of proper and improper conduct in the world at large. When individual Russians are harassed because they're Russian that is also problematic for similar reasons, even if the people harassing them are angry about what the Russian government is doing.

It's relevant because we don't see how the world would have treated an individual Russian performer at Eurovision because Russians have been banned from performing at Eurovision altogether. So I'm going with the comparison I have, which is that Russia (and by extension Russians) are being treated more harshly than Israel (and by extension Israelis) on an institutional level. We can speculate about whether Russians would have been treated similarly to Israelis on an individual level at Eurovision, but it's just that - speculation. In and of itself it's not a case closed argument that Golan's treatment was or was not antisemitic in part or in whole, but it adds context.

I think we can probably agree that there are two potentially major reasons for the treatment of Golan. One is outrage at the actions of the Israeli government being visited on her (fairly or not) as an individual. The other is antisemitism. I wouldn't doubt that there are some people using outrage at the Israeli government as a cover for antisemitic acts. The closest modern day parallel to this situation is Russia/Ukraine, and that seems to have similar reactions from around the world, absent the question of antisemitism.

Again, I'm not saying that antisemitism isn't a factor here. I do think it may be a force amplifier. Still, there are also non-antisemitic reasons for the reaction that shouldn't be discounted.

[El Guapo]

I think there were two main reasons why they're hostile toward the Israeli singer:

1. They wanted Eurovision to ban Israel from Eurovision just like Russia.

2. Eurovision banned Palestinian flag or any symbol that showed support for Palestinian civilians. Two of contestants were rebuked for that. Eric Saade from Sweden was rebuked for wearing a black and white scarf on his arm. Bambie Thug was asked to change their stage makeup that showed Pro Palestinian references.

While Eurovision claimed that the ban was because Eurovision is an apolitical event, a lot people viewed that Eurovision organizer was pro-Israel. With Israeli contestant allowed to join as a contestant, it was okay to bring Israel flag to show support to Israel but not bring Palestinian flags or symbol.

Yeah, there was no ban specific to Palestinian flags. My understanding is that substantially all flags other than the national flags of the participating countries are banned as part of their "no politics" rules. As hepcat said, the EU flag is banned for similar reasons. Similarly the Swiss contestant (who won) was non-binary and had to smuggle in a non-binary flag. Saade was rebuked because the scarf was a kefiyyah, which is a Palestinian symbol.

I don't necessarily agree with all these decisions on the merits, but there was no specific ban on Palestinian politics, so much as a ban on anything political. Note, for example, that the Israeli singer had to change her song for the competition because of the "no politics" rules. Her song was originally called "October Rain", and viewed (probably correctly) as being about the October 7th attacks, but she was forced to change it (along with some lyrics) to "Hurricane". I don't think the EBU was pro-October 7th attacks when it enforced the no politics rule there.

The song drew heavy scrutiny for its original title "October Rain", which along with the lyrics was viewed as a political message alluding to the Israel–Hamas war in support of Israel. As a result, the European Broadcasting Union (EBU), the organization that manages the Eurovision Song Contest, requested a rewrite of the song in late February 2024. After multiple submissions and rewrites, a final revised version, titled "Hurricane", was approved by the EBU on 7 March.

[El Guapo]

I think we can probably agree that there are two potentially major reasons for the treatment of Golan. One is outrage at the actions of the Israeli government being visited on her (fairly or not) as an individual. The other is antisemitism. I wouldn't doubt that there are some people using outrage at the Israeli government as a cover for antisemitic acts. The closest modern day parallel to this situation is Russia/Ukraine, and that seems to have similar reactions from around the world, absent the question of antisemitism.

Again, I'm not saying that antisemitism isn't a factor here. I do think it may be a force amplifier. Still, there are also non-antisemitic reasons for the reaction that shouldn't be discounted.

This is getting into what mental state one has to have in order to be anti-Semitic. Let me ask you - suppose a crowd, angry about the war in Gaza, had refused to allow any Israelis into the venue - would that be anti-Semitic?

[ImLawBoy]

That's a hard hypothetical for me to grok. Are we talking self-identified Israelis? Or does the hypothetical have a "they just know" qualifier (perfectly reasonable for a hypothetical scenario - I just need to know)? Are they excluding non-Israeli Jewish people? Are they excluding Israelis who want to protest the Israeli government with them?

I may also have a different definition of antisemitism than you do. In my mind, it's hatred/discrimination against people who are Jewish or of Jewish heritage. I suspect you've contemplated the issue more than I have and have a more nuanced definition than I do.

While I wait the response, I'll pose a counter-hypothetical for your consideration. There's a pro-Ukranian crowd, angry about the Russian invasion, and they refuse to allow any Russians into the venue. For this hypothetical, I'll go with "they just know" and they're excluding Russians who want to protest the Russian government.

Is there a material distinction here between your protest scenario and mine besides the antisemitism question? If not, what relevance should the antisemitism question have in the discussion?

[Dogstar]

This is getting into what mental state one has to have in order to be anti-Semitic. Let me ask you - suppose a crowd, angry about the war in Gaza, had refused to allow any Israelis into the venue - would that be anti-Semitic?

At that point, if you're basing the refusal to allow any citizens of a specific national origin (Israel) into the venue (vetting occurring via passport-checking), how would one argue that you're discriminating against Semitic people in general if Semitic people of other national citizenships could obtain entry?

[GreenGoo]

Call us when they forbid Israelis but allow Jewish people. Until then, I'm pretty sure El Guapo meant people of Jewish persuasion rather than Israeli nationals.

US/Canadian campuses are directing their anger at Jewish people in general, not Israelis specifically (or more accurately, lumping them all in with Israel nationals). It's anti-Semitic because it's discrimination based on race and/or religion, not because of their nationality.

[ImLawBoy]

Call us when they forbid Israelis but allow Jewish people. Until then, I'm pretty sure El Guapo meant people of Jewish persuasion rather than Israeli nationals.

US/Canadian campuses are directing their anger at Jewish people in general, not Israelis specifically (or more accurately, lumping them all in with Israel nationals). It's anti-Semitic because it's discrimination based on race and/or religion, not because of their nationality.

That's not fully accurate. There were reports of Seders being held in some encampments with Jewish participants during Passover.

[Alefroth]

Call us when they forbid Israelis but allow Jewish people. Until then, I'm pretty sure El Guapo meant people of Jewish persuasion rather than Israeli nationals.

I think if that's what he meant he would have just said that. He's a pretty clear communicator.

[GreenGoo]

That's not fully accurate. There were reports of Seders being held in some encampments with Jewish participants during Passover.

I was speaking to the specific incidences where the hostility actually occurred. I'm sorry that it seemed to be a blanket statement. I agree that not everyone on all campuses behaves in a uniform way.

[GreenGoo]

I think if that's what he meant he would have just said that. He's a pretty clear communicator.

Excellent. Then I'm the odd man out. I'll let him speak to his hypothetical, if he chooses to do so.

[El Guapo]

That's a hard hypothetical for me to grok. Are we talking self-identified Israelis? Or does the hypothetical have a "they just know" qualifier (perfectly reasonable for a hypothetical scenario - I just need to know)? Are they excluding non-Israeli Jewish people? Are they excluding Israelis who want to protest the Israeli government with them?

I may also have a different definition of antisemitism than you do. In my mind, it's hatred/discrimination against people who are Jewish or of Jewish heritage. I suspect you've contemplated the issue more than I have and have a more nuanced definition than I do.

While I wait the response, I'll pose a counter-hypothetical for your consideration. There's a pro-Ukranian crowd, angry about the Russian invasion, and they refuse to allow any Russians into the venue. For this hypothetical, I'll go with "they just know" and they're excluding Russians who want to protest the Russian government.

Is there a material distinction here between your protest scenario and mine besides the antisemitism question? If not, what relevance should the antisemitism question have in the discussion?

Anyone that they identify as Israeli. They may not be perfect - they may erroneously exclude people that they falsely identify as Israeli, and may let in some Israelis that they miss - but the intent is to exclude all Israelis. Solely based on national origin not on politics or religion, but since ~ 75% of Israelis are Jewish, the vast majority of the people they turn away will be Jewish.

For the most part your hypothetical is materially the same (except for the antisemitism part). I think that would be the same category of bigotry. In your hypothetical the vast majority of those excluded will be Christian. One difference is that the are many Christian-majority countries (not just one), and there isn't the same ethnic component to Christianity that there is to Judaism, so the inference of anti-Christian discrimination isn't as strong in that hypothetical in my view.

[ImLawBoy]

Anyone that they identify as Israeli. They may not be perfect - they may erroneously exclude people that they falsely identify as Israeli, and may let in some Israelis that they miss - but the intent is to exclude all Israelis. Solely based on national origin not on politics or religion, but since ~ 75% of Israelis are Jewish, the vast majority of the people they turn away will be Jewish.

I'm going to assume that they are permitting non-Israelis who are Jewish. So the intent is secular, but the impact is disproportionately religious. I'm admittedly giving intent a lot of weight here, but I'd be hesitant to call that antisemitic (using my definition of antisemitic). That doesn't mean I'd absolve individuals in the crowd of all antisemitism, as some of them are almost certainly antisemites. I just wouldn't call that demonstration antisemitic per se.

For the most part your hypothetical is materially the same (except for the antisemitism part). I think that would be the same category of bigotry. In your hypothetical the vast majority of those excluded will be Christian. One difference is that the are many Christian-majority countries (not just one), and there isn't the same ethnic component to Christianity that there is to Judaism, so the inference of anti-Christian discrimination isn't as strong in that hypothetical in my view.

Yeah, it's hard to draw too close of a comparison given the differences between Christianity and Judaism, and that has to be taken into account. Still, there's clearly a secular comparison to be drawn here that's worth thinking about.

[Apollo]

I would just like to point out that Russia launched a brutal, unprovoked invasion of a Democratic nation with the goal of military conquest. What Hamas did was much worse. They launched an unprovoked terrorist assault against a Democratic nation designed to rape and murder as many Israelis as possible, take hundreds hostage, then hide in heavily populated areas waiting for the inevitable Israeli response. There was no military strategy at all, it was simply kill as many Israelis as possible as quickly as possible.

All the Israelis have done in response is to launch an assault into Gaza to destroy the authoritarian government that attacked their nation in the same way as nations have done throughout history. The fact that so many civilians have been killed is much more a result of Hamas's tactic of hiding in civilian areas knowing that the inevitable civilian deaths will help them politically than Israeli butchery (though the Israeli's are not without blame I can't remember a similar situation where a nation that was attacked was so heavily criticized for civilian deaths when they responded militarily ). But it's the Israelis that are accused of genocide for trying to eliminate an organization that has sworn to destroy their nation and everyone in it while the Palestinians, who elected and supported a government dedicated to the destruction of Israel and actual genocide against it's people, are given a free pass.

One nice side-effect of all this is the Far Left getting a taste of its own medicine. When anyone disagrees with their position on just about anything, no matter how nuanced (JK Rowling comes to mind), their response is always "You're racist/sexist/a bigot/a homophobe/a transphobe!", etc. etc. However, when the obvious overtone of antisemitism in the pro-Palestinian protest movement is pointed out they're always trying to nuance their way out of it, pointing out how they can be anti-Israel but not anti-Semitic.

[ImLawBoy]

Well, I thought we were having a good conversation. Good thing someone is here to point out all the hypocrisy and bad faith so we can stop this charade of trying to come to an understanding.

[El Guapo]

Anyone that they identify as Israeli. They may not be perfect - they may erroneously exclude people that they falsely identify as Israeli, and may let in some Israelis that they miss - but the intent is to exclude all Israelis. Solely based on national origin not on politics or religion, but since ~ 75% of Israelis are Jewish, the vast majority of the people they turn away will be Jewish.

I'm going to assume that they are permitting non-Israelis who are Jewish. So the intent is secular, but the impact is disproportionately religious. I'm admittedly giving intent a lot of weight here, but I'd be hesitant to call that antisemitic (using my definition of antisemitic). That doesn't mean I'd absolve individuals in the crowd of all antisemitism, as some of them are almost certainly antisemites. I just wouldn't call that demonstration antisemitic per se.

For the most part your hypothetical is materially the same (except for the antisemitism part). I think that would be the same category of bigotry. In your hypothetical the vast majority of those excluded will be Christian. One difference is that the are many Christian-majority countries (not just one), and there isn't the same ethnic component to Christianity that there is to Judaism, so the inference of anti-Christian discrimination isn't as strong in that hypothetical in my view.

Yeah, it's hard to draw too close of a comparison given the differences between Christianity and Judaism, and that has to be taken into account. Still, there's clearly a secular comparison to be drawn here that's worth thinking about.

A couple things. First, I think the targeting of Israelis as Israelis absolutely has an impact on Jews who are not themselves Israeli. One because Judaism as a religion has significant ties to the land of Israel (next year in Jerusalem, and all that), so even Jews that are relatively hostile to Netanyahu and his allies still often have part of their identities tied to Israel. Also a lot of Jews are not going to feel super safe and comfortable around a group of people who are targeting Israel, even if they're not (currently) overtly targeting Jews. Like when those UCLA schmucks were excluding "Zionists" from campus common spaces like the library. Was that targeting Jews as Jews? No...but I can't imagine any Jew feeling safe when people are going after "Zionists".

Not that there aren't distinctions here between impacts on Israelis and impacts on Jews...but they're pretty thin.

Second, you seem to be drawing a distinction where someone who is acting because of the actions of a group (e.g., someone targeting Israelis because of the war in Gaza) cannot be acting with bigoted intent (or at least is unlikely to be doing so). But I don't think that's as robust a distinction as you think. Bigots are almost always acting upon members of a minority group based upon (real or perceived) actions of the group at large.